Author Topic: UFO/TFTD hybrid game discussion  (Read 6010 times)

Offline Hobbes

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UFO/TFTD hybrid game discussion
« on: October 15, 2014, 07:24:08 pm »
Since a true UFO/TFTD hybrid has been the 'Holy Grail' for XCom players for quite a long time, I've decided to start a discussion topic to try to work out how it *could* work using OpenXCom. By this I simply conceptualizing the whole hybrid game and what would be required.

Before any of the developers smacks me in the head, yes, I know, it is impossible to do it at the moment, and even when TFTD is finished, due to the differences. And it most definitely would also need specific code to deal with many aspects. But for now the discussion is merely theoretical, and I promise I won't bother you with it ;)

So, don't get all excited about this thread since a LOT would be required for a hybrid game to happen. But it could be a stepping stone of some sort for the future, so let's start with the basic:

The Storyline/Plotline
From what I've discussed so far, the general consensus seems to be that such a hybrid could take 2 forms:

A) Serial - after completing Cydonia an finishing UFO the game continues but now in the TFTD storyline.
B) Parallel - both UFO/TFTD take place at the same time.

Both options have pro/cons but quite honestly I would prefer option B) since there isn't much difference between A) and playing both games separately. With option B) it would also be possible to either have the hybrid on a UFO or a TFTD setting (GUI, etc.) but I would also prefer to keep it based on UFO.

The plotline would also need to be reworked. The most logical solution to me seems to be something like:
* Start with XCom base on land and for the first months make only UFO missions on land.
* Afterwards introduce USO missions. The challenge here would be that your underwater tech is the basic stuff and now you need to decide whether to focus your research on either land or sea tech.
* The research required to win could be alternated, each step completed unlocking the next one, after the required alien is captured and interrogated: Alien Origins, Alien Origins II (the appearance of the aquatic aliens questions the info learned on the previous topic), Ultimate Threat (points towards the existence of T'Leth), The Martian Solution (it is revealed that T'Leth is merely following orders from Mars), Tleth The Alien City (to destroy the alien's main base on Earth and gather intel about the location of Cydonia), and Cydonia or Bust.
* Another idea posted is to allow the player to win the game by completing either the Cydonia or T'Leth missions to win the game. And/or to have a time limit to do Cydonia before T'Leth rises.
* A possible addition is a trigger event for the aquatic aliens to appear, although this might require too much work.
* One nice thing to add would be that the T'Leth mission would be a suicidal one, since the city explodes at the end of TFTD so you'd lose both the craft and the soldiers. Who do you choose to die on that mission?

Starting from this, I'm going to start thinking about other game issues but I'll post them in separate threads below this one.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 12:40:29 am by Hobbes »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: UFO/TFTD Hybrid Discussion
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2014, 07:24:39 pm »
World/Regions/Countries

Countries
Since TFTD introduces several new countries it will be necessary to add those. The easiest solution would be to check to see if there's a corresponding country in UFO, and if not, add a new country in UFO to match it and taking into account the political situation in 1999 or whatever date is best.
United States - USA
People's Republic of Alaska - USA
Eurasia - Russia
Euro Syndicate - consists of UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain on UFO.
Asian Coalition - India
Scandinavia - add Norway
Neo-Japan - Japan
New Mexico Cooperative- add Mexico
Brazilian Union - Brasil
Australasia - Australia
Egyptian Cartel - Egypt
African Corporation - South Africa the most likely choice
Icelandic Union - add Iceland
Arabian Block - add Saudi Arabia
Free China - add Taiwan
Federated Korea - add Korea

This would mean to add 6 new countries to UFO. The issue afterwards would be to split TFTD's country zones (where UFO/USO activity is calculated) between UFO's countries.

Alien Missions
Currently UFO starts with 2 planned monthly alien missions (random, terror) and a possible retaliation, but around June the aliens add a 2nd random mission and around January 2000 (depending on the difficulty level) an automatic retaliation mission per month. This means 2/3 missions on the first 6 months, 3/4 from July-December and 4 missions afterwards.

TFTD should have the same frequency (to be confirmed later), with the addition of the Alien Artifact Sites, which appear to start at a specific month. Which means that by adding both there would a doubling of the alien missions per month.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 12:35:35 am by Hobbes »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: UFO/TFTD Hybrid Discussion
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2014, 07:24:50 pm »
Aliens

Ranks
First question is the issue of alien ranks since they are different between both games. First listed are UFO then TFTD equivalents.

Commander - Commander
Leader - Navigator
Engineer - Technician
Medic - Medic
Navigator - Squad Leader
Soldier - Soldier
Terrorist - Terrorist

The biggest changes are between Navigators and Leaders since they are swapped between both games. It may be possible to have 2 separate rank structures but for sake for clarity it would be better to stick for a combined rank structure and make the necessary adaptation in research.

Damage Modifiers
Both are essentially the same, so they should be stuck together in the same system and rename them as required. Lobstermen would still be vulnerable to both melee and stun weapons, whether it's on land or sea, etc.
One aspect to consider is that the damage ranges for projectile weapons can vary between 0-200% in UFO and 50-150% in TFTD.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 12:23:52 am by Hobbes »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: UFO/TFTD Hybrid Discussion
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2014, 07:25:04 pm »
Crafts and Interceptions

There are 3 main issues here:
1) UFOs being shot down over water
2) USOs being shot down over land
3) USOs being intercepted on the air

The issue with 1) is what happens to the UFO and if it is possible to send a sub to recover it. However, land aliens should not be supposed to survive on water, so either there would be no combat involved (or even no mission created if we consider that the UFO would simply be too wrecked for any salvage) or the land aliens would be replaced with aquatic ones.

With 2) it would be possible since TFTD already allows for land missions, so the sea aliens could be present on USO recovery missions on land.

Now 3) would present the biggest challenge but it would also be an incentive to have an interceptor ready to deal with any USO that surfaces during an interception. Or it could also be possible to mount aerial weapons on the Barracudas since they can fly.

Finally, there's another option - UFOs being able to submerge (to escape Interceptor attacks) and be intercepted underwater by Barracudas. This requires solving out the issue on 1) though (along with all the technical changes to the engine).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 08:27:47 pm by Hobbes »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: UFO/TFTD Hybrid Discussion
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2014, 07:25:20 pm »
Bases/Facilities/Soldiers/Equipment

Bases
Essentially there would be two types of bases, land and underwater bases, each with common facilities and specific ones.

It might also be possible to introduce a 'hybrid' base that would be placed on the coast, that would allow to have both land and sea facilities present but this would have to be carefully considered, since it would be the most logical choice for the player, and most likely the other 2 bases would not be used.

Facilities
Common (Land/Sea) facilities
* General Stores
* Living Quarters
* Workshop
* Laboratory
* Alien Containment
* Access Lift/Air-Lock (since it's automatically build)
* Bombardment Shield
* Mind Shield

Specific facilities (either can only be built on land or sea)
* Radars/Sonars
* Hangar/Sub Pen
* Hyperwave Decoder/Transmission Resolver
* Psionic/MC Lab
* Defenses

Soldiers/Equipment
* Soldiers would be able to take both land or sea missions, depending on the type of base they are located. This forces to have at least 2 strike teams ready, one for each type of missions.
* Equipment could be transferred freely between bases, but it would only be possible to equip craft with their specific equipment and armor types (Skyrangers get land equipment, Tritons sea equipment).
* During TFTD terror attacks (which take place on land), it would be possible to bring either a Triton or a Skyranger. However, TFTD underwater weapon restrictions would apply if a Triton or similar sea craft was deployed. And it would never be possible to send a Skyranger or similar craft to an underwater mission.
* Gauss and Sonic technologies are another matter. You should be able to use both on land but at the same time you ran the risk that players will keep them instead of upgrading to plasma. However, this can be solved by having completed research on plasma weapons as requirement for developing both weapon types.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 08:37:34 pm by Hobbes »

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Re: UFO/TFTD Hybrid Discussion
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2014, 07:28:52 pm »
Research

This is probably the section which will involve the most changes. Essentially the idea would be the same described in the plotline section: you need some TFTD research completed to advance your research in UFO and vice-versa.

Some ideas:
* Plasma Weapons required to develop Gauss technology
* Hyperwave Decoder + Live Sea Alien Navigator required to develop Transmission Resolver
* MC Lab + Live Land Psionic Alien to develop Psionic Labs

With this sort of logic the Research Tree would become more complicated and harder to complete but it would be more integrated. You could only advance your land research if you conduct some sea research and vice-versa. It could also set an interesting decision for the player, since to focus in one would mean to be lacking on the other.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 08:09:06 pm by Hobbes »

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Re: UFO/TFTD Hybrid Discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2014, 07:29:52 pm »
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Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: UFO/TFTD hybrid game discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2014, 08:48:18 pm »
Sorry to blow my own horn, but I guess it should be merged with this thread here.

Offline MrFrustrated

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Re: UFO/TFTD hybrid game discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2014, 01:05:39 am »

From what I've discussed so far, the general consensus seems to be that such a hybrid could take 2 forms:

A) Serial - after completing Cydonia an finishing UFO the game continues but now in the TFTD storyline.
B) Parallel - both UFO/TFTD take place at the same time.

Both options have pro/cons but quite honestly I would prefer option B) since there isn't much difference between A) and playing both games separately. With option B) it would also be possible to either have the hybrid on a UFO or a TFTD setting (GUI, etc.) but I would also prefer to keep it based on UFO.

I've thought about this myself, without going too much into my own expanded idea for a game.

You would have to have both Cydonia and T'Leth destroyed to win, but it would be like the orginal Fallout, where you can do the victory requirements in either order. Fuflfilling either one will reduce alien missions from that group but the other brain takes over both groups. I would have T'Leth rise sooner than the Martian end game plan needs to destroy X-com. In other words, you might only have a year or 2 before game over if T'Leth isn't stopped sooner rather than later.

The 2 alien groups would play differently. I would have the sea aliens be on a harder level of difficulty, but fewer missions. The space aliens easier, but 3x times the number of missions.

Basically, the Martians can win without T'Leth, but it will much easier if they get T'Leth to rise. Because of that, the space invaders would get a new mission complete with its own ufopedia entry, Rehab (the space aliens are aiding thier sea brothers in restoring T'Leth). If too many rehab mission occur, T'Leth rises, game over. If you take out T'Leth first, well the eco damage wrecks the world economy and your maintence fees and funding go in the wrong direction.

World/Regions/Countries

Countries
Since TFTD introduces several new countries it will be necessary to add those. The easiest solution would be to check to see if there's a corresponding country in UFO, and if not, add a new country in UFO to match it and taking into account the political situation in 1999 or whatever date is best.
United States - USA
People's Republic of Alaska - USA
Eurasia - Russia
Euro Syndicate - consists of UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain on UFO.
Asian Coalition - India
Scandinavia - add Norway
Neo-Japan - Japan
New Mexico Cooperative- add Mexico
Brazilian Union - Brasil
Australasia - Australia
Egyptian Cartel - Egypt
African Corporation - South Africa the most likely choice
Icelandic Union - add Iceland
Arabian Block - add Saudi Arabia
Free China - add Taiwan
Federated Korea - add Korea

This would mean to add 6 new countries to UFO. The issue afterwards would be to split TFTD's country zones (where UFO/USO activity is calculated) between UFO's countries.

I don't know if its possible, but what if when the sea aliens start attacking, 6 new countries are brought in to do additional funding?

If the aliens are opening up a second front, it would make sense if more countries are brought into the fold.



Damage Modifiers
Both are essentially the same, so they should be stuck together in the same system and rename them as required. Lobstermen would still be vulnerable to both melee and stun weapons, whether it's on land or sea, etc.

I know it would be a pain to code, but I would like it if the different types of damage where kept seperate. Granted, someone would have to decide how much plasma and laser does to a lobsterman and vice versa, but it would expand the game.

I would also like it if lasers and plasma don't work underwater.

The space aliens should eventually switch to sonic weapons.

Sonic craft weapons shouldn't work on airplanes since high alitudes have less atmosphere which is required for sound waves to travel.

Crafts and Interceptions

There are 3 main issues here:
1) UFOs being shot down over water
2) USOs being shot down over land
3) USOs being intercepted on the air

The issue with 1) is what happens to the UFO and if it is possible to send a sub to recover it. However, land aliens should not be supposed to survive on water, so either there would be no combat involved (or even no mission created if we consider that the UFO would simply be too wrecked for any salvage) or the land aliens would be replaced with aquatic ones.

With 2) it would be possible since TFTD already allows for land missions, so the sea aliens could be present on USO recovery missions on land.

Now 3) would present the biggest challenge but it would also be an incentive to have an interceptor ready to deal with any USO that surfaces during an interception. Or it could also be possible to mount aerial weapons on the Barracudas since they can fly.

Finally, there's another option - UFOs being able to submerge (to escape Interceptor attacks) and be intercepted underwater by Barracudas. This requires solving out the issue on 1) though (along with all the technical changes to the engine).

Eleruin isn't suppose to survive contact with water, so no space aliens under water.

I would allow land bases to deal with sea terror attacks, shipping lanes.

Bases/Facilities/Soldiers/Equipment

...

It might also be possible to introduce a 'hybrid' base that would be placed on the coast, that would allow to have both land and sea facilities present but this would have to be carefully considered, since it would be the most logical choice for the player, and most likely the other 2 bases would not be used.

...

Specific facilities (either can only be built on land or sea)
* Radars/Sonars
* Hangar/Sub Pen
* Hyperwave Decoder/Transmission Resolver
* Psionic/MC Lab
* Defenses

Soldiers/Equipment
...
* Gauss and Sonic technologies are another matter. You should be able to use both on land but at the same time you ran the risk that players will keep them instead of upgrading to plasma. However, this can be solved by having completed research on plasma weapons as requirement for developing both weapon types.

First, sea bases have to able to be a hybrid as space aliends can land attack them. Remeber, the water bases are called "Floating Bases," which means part of them is above the water. For that reason, I would allow them to be able to build all land facilties, but not the otherway around unless they are made on or near the coast.

As for not developing plasma weapons, unlikely. Heavy Plasma has 35 shots to Sonic Cannons 10. H Plasma has auto fire unlike Sonic. H Plasma has a snap shot of 30%, sonic 50%. Granted, Sonic is 5% more accurate but that's not much of a trade off. Sonic Cannon has an average of 130 (+/- 50%), which translates to a damage range of 65-195. Plasma can do 0-230, average of 115. Yes, sonic has a better average but when your facing very tough opponents, plasma will more likely get through.

For the record, plasma should not work under water.

Research

This is probably the section which will involve the most changes. Essentially the idea would be the same described in the plotline section: you need some TFTD research completed to advance your research in UFO and vice-versa.

Some ideas:
* Plasma Weapons required to develop Gauss technology
* Hyperwave Decoder + Live Sea Alien Navigator required to develop Transmission Resolver
* MC Lab + Live Land Psionic Alien to develop Psionic Labs

With this sort of logic the Research Tree would become more complicated and harder to complete but it would be more integrated. You could only advance your land research if you conduct some sea research and vice-versa. It could also set an interesting decision for the player, since to focus in one would mean to be lacking on the other.

I wouldn't intergrate the research except I might change turn matter control into mind control
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 12:53:38 am by MrFrustrated »

Offline NoelBuddy

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Re: UFO/TFTD hybrid game discussion
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2014, 03:14:47 am »
So, don't get all excited...

 :o  ;D  :D :-X Excitement contained.

Quote
A) Serial - after completing Cydonia an finishing UFO the game continues but now in the TFTD storyline.
B) Parallel - both UFO/TFTD take place at the same time.

I have been thinking a bit about creating a serial campaign, and how to make what you did in one carry over to the next one thought I had was:

Upon finishing the Cydonia(or other end game mission) you load up the new ruleset which redefines everything you have turning accumulated items into a bunch of sell able artifacts.  Another option would be to give you weapons from UFO when starting TFTD but they have a limited ammo supply that can't be replenished as you won't be getting any more E-115.

 As for soldiers there is a 40 year lag according to established plot lines, would there be a way to randomly pick say 10% of troops that you had at the end of Cydonia that you get to keep as your starting TFTD squad, the ones who were young enough and stayed healthy enough to still fight would be the first people called when aliens show up again anyway.

Alternately for a merged campaign, starts as a vanilla campaign but each time a UFO is shot down there is a chance of awakening the TFTD, much higher if they crash in water.  Once the TFTD alien are awoken both groups will be attacking in full force.  If you manage to get to Cydonia without waking them up the destruction there will do that.  This way if you take your time going to Mars you risk being overwhelmed by the combined forces, if you rush you won't have a much time to accumulate an arsenal(the usefulness of which is still questionable) and having wiped out the Mars base you won't be getting any more Ellerium.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: UFO/TFTD hybrid game discussion
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2014, 10:15:04 pm »
Sorry to blow my own horn, but I guess it should be merged with this thread here.

I didn't notice your thread existed, sorry. But I prefer to keep mine as a separate thread since it's possible to better organize the discussion into some sort of possible working document.

You would have to have both Cydonia and T'Leth destroyed to win, but it would be like the orginal Fallout, where you can do the victory requirements in either order. Fuflfilling either one will reduce alien missions from that group but the other brain takes over both groups. I would have T'Leth rise sooner than the Martian end game plan needs to destroy X-com. In other words, you might only have a year or 2 before game over if T'Leth isn't stopped sooner rather than later.

The 2 alien groups would play differently. I would have the sea aliens be on a harder level of difficulty, but fewer missions. The space aliens easier, but 3x times the number of missions.

Basically, the Martians can win without T'Leth, but it will much easier if they get T'Leth to rise. Because of that, the space invaders would get a new mission complete with its own ufopedia entry, Rehab (the space aliens are aiding thier sea brothers in restoring T'Leth). If too many rehab mission occur, T'Leth rises, game over. If you take out T'Leth first, well the eco damage wrecks the world economy and your maintence fees and funding go in the wrong direction.

There are several interesting ideas here. I'm going to add them as another alternative for the plotline.

I know it would be a pain to code, but I would like it if the different types of damage where kept seperate. Granted, someone would have to decide how much plasma and laser does to a lobsterman and vice versa, but it would expand the game.

I would also like it if lasers and plasma don't work underwater.

Well, having separate damage systems also makes it harder to pay attention to those penalties/bonuses against specific aliens, plus it would be a lot of work to implement and balance it. My idea is really more of trying to keep work on a minimum. Lasers and plasma won't work underwater like it was already described in TFTD.

First, sea bases have to able to be a hybrid as space aliends can land attack them. Remeber, the water bases are called "Floating Bases," which means part of them is above the water. For that reason, I would allow them to be able to build all land facilties, but not the otherway around unless they are made on or near the coast.

Forgotten about the floating bases, although I personally see them as being tethered to the bottom of the ocean and being able to submerge themselves to avoid a storm or an alien attack. But yeah, it would make sense that land aliens could attack them, although when you consider the mission generation rules that would only happen if the land aliens conducted retaliation missions over the seas.

Quote
As for not developing plasma weapons, unlikely. Heavy Plasma has 35 shots to Sonic Cannons 10. H Plasma has auto fire unlike Sonic. H Plasma has a snap shot of 30%, sonic 50%. Granted, Sonic is 5% more accurate but that's not much of a trade off. Sonic Cannon has an average of 130 (+/- 50%), which translates to a damage range of 65-195. Plasma can do 0-230, average of 115. Yes, sonic has a better average but when your facing very tough opponents, plasma will more likely get through.

Actually Sonic Cannons might make better weapons for snipers (slightly better aim and less random damage) while Plasmas might be better for assault soldiers. I'm not sure but I think that you'd have to choose either the 100% or 50% damage modifiers (without making major changes to the engine) so Sonic would actually be better in either case. 

I wouldn't intergrate the research except I might change turn matter control into mind control

This will depend a lot on the solution found for the plotline.


I have been thinking a bit about creating a serial campaign, and how to make what you did in one carry over to the next one thought I had was:

Upon finishing the Cydonia(or other end game mission) you load up the new ruleset which redefines everything you have turning accumulated items into a bunch of sell able artifacts.  Another option would be to give you weapons from UFO when starting TFTD but they have a limited ammo supply that can't be replenished as you won't be getting any more E-115.

 As for soldiers there is a 40 year lag according to established plot lines, would there be a way to randomly pick say 10% of troops that you had at the end of Cydonia that you get to keep as your starting TFTD squad, the ones who were young enough and stayed healthy enough to still fight would be the first people called when aliens show up again anyway.

Alternately for a merged campaign, starts as a vanilla campaign but each time a UFO is shot down there is a chance of awakening the TFTD, much higher if they crash in water.  Once the TFTD alien are awoken both groups will be attacking in full force.  If you manage to get to Cydonia without waking them up the destruction there will do that.  This way if you take your time going to Mars you risk being overwhelmed by the combined forces, if you rush you won't have a much time to accumulate an arsenal(the usefulness of which is still questionable) and having wiped out the Mars base you won't be getting any more Ellerium.

The serial idea has a few issues. Converting the artifacts into money gives the player an early boost when compared to vanilla TFTD. Plus even if a soldier was recruited into XCom when he was 18 (they sure pick those rookies young) he would be 58 by the time vanilla TFTD takes place he should be being a desk, not being sent on missions.

UFO activity triggering T'leth was also mentioned by MrFrustrated. Essentially you'd have a trigger event that can be determined by factors like difficulty (like the automatic retaliation missions that appear mid campaign on vanilla UFO), or some other stuff. The issue there is how or if it is possible for the game engine to create such an overwhelming situation other than tossing additional missions on the player, which risks turning the late game missions into a chore.

Which brings another issue with a merged game: how to retain the vanilla frequency of missions to keep the progression of missions the same for the player. Currently UFO starts with 2 planned monthly alien missions (random, terror) and a possible retaliation, but around June the aliens add a 2nd random mission and in January an automatic retaliation mission per month. With both games this would mean 8 missions per month once T'Leth appears but here I wouldn't add so many.

Offline MrFrustrated

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Re: UFO/TFTD hybrid game discussion
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2014, 06:42:20 am »

There are several interesting ideas here. I'm going to add them as another alternative for the plotline.

...

Forgotten about the floating bases, although I personally see them as being tethered to the bottom of the ocean and being able to submerge themselves to avoid a storm or an alien attack. But yeah, it would make sense that land aliens could attack them, although when you consider the mission generation rules that would only happen if the land aliens conducted retaliation missions over the seas.


Thank you.

As for the floating bases, when the alien subs find a sea base, it could trigger a double retaliation mission (one by sea, second by land).

If T'Leth is the prefered endgame of the aliens, it makes sense that both groups of aliens would attack a sea base for retaliation.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: UFO/TFTD hybrid game discussion
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2014, 11:24:07 am »
* The research required to win could be alternated, each step completed unlocking the next one, after the required alien is captured and interrogated: Alien Origins, Alien Origins II (the appearance of the aquatic aliens questions the info learned on the previous topic), Ultimate Threat (points towards the existence of T'Leth), The Martian Solution (it is revealed that T'Leth is merely following orders from Mars), Tleth The Alien City (to destroy the alien's main base on Earth and gather intel about the location of Cydonia), and Cydonia or Bust.

I like this model best. It is logical and should form a solid framework for the campaign.

* Another idea posted is to allow the player to win the game by completing either the Cydonia or T'Leth missions to win the game. And/or to have a time limit to do Cydonia before T'Leth rises.
* A possible addition is a trigger event for the aquatic aliens to appear, although this might require too much work.

I don't think it'll be complicated programming-wise, provided that someone would agree to write the code. I may be wrong, but i wouldn't dismiss the possibility that early.

But what exactly do you have in mind?

* One nice thing to add would be that the T'Leth mission would be a suicidal one, since the city explodes at the end of TFTD so you'd lose both the craft and the soldiers. Who do you choose to die on that mission?

The players would hate this.

Let's do it! :D

Countries

I think it's a non-issue (new countries can be added or not), except for adding territorial waters. (Note that MKSheppard and Falko's mod already adds/changes countries, and Falko wrote an excellent tool for this.)

The issue with 1) is what happens to the UFO and if it is possible to send a sub to recover it. However, land aliens should not be supposed to survive on water, so either there would be no combat involved (or even no mission created if we consider that the UFO would simply be too wrecked for any salvage) or the land aliens would be replaced with aquatic ones.

Well, certainly not replaced, because how. To quote myself from the other thread:

I think it would be enough if a UFO which crashes into the sea becomes far too damaged to recover anything of interest; probably just some Alien Alloys and MAYBE some corpses/personal items. Considering it would be later in the game, it wouldn't be terribly attractive anyway (though you'd still do it, I guess). Actually, this process should be automated once you have the tech to do it (sending a Triton to recover an undefended wreck wouldn't be fun).

I just think that actual underwater missions provide too many design issues to be worth it, concerning living aliens, their weapons and so on. You could handwave it with a forcefield surrounding the wreck or something, keeping the water in, but people wouldn't buy it (well, I wouldn't).

Now 3) would present the biggest challenge but it would also be an incentive to have an interceptor ready to deal with any USO that surfaces during an interception. Or it could also be possible to mount aerial weapons on the Barracudas since they can fly.

Finally, there's another option - UFOs being able to submerge (to escape Interceptor attacks) and be intercepted underwater by Barracudas. This requires solving out the issue on 1) though (along with all the technical changes to the engine).

Well, in my ideal world:

TFTD aliens and UFOs probably wouldn't fly, they're just navy. Otherwise some aliens (Tentaculats, Hallucinoids etc.) would die if the UFO crashes on land.

So if there would be no flying subs on either side, the engine would have to be modified to prevent them from entering land masses... But this looks like a toughie, code-wise.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: UFO/TFTD hybrid game discussion
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2014, 03:24:05 pm »
Regarding the missions, you could have two flags for aliens: LivesOnLand (true/false) and LivesInWater (T/F).

Most TftD aliens would have both true, except the obviously underwater ones. All UFO:EU aliens would have LIW: false. Upon generating a mission, check the flags and kill the appropriate ones (the engine already has the capability to kill aliens, so it should not be too difficult).

The crash site is generated as usual, and you can send a triton to recover it. At the start of the mission, underwater UFO power sources have a 100% chance to explode (catastrophically?) and clips/grenades are destroyed to represent the Elerium reaction with water. As soon as you start the mission, you get the "You win" window since there are no live aliens to fight. Takes.. a few minutes at most (send triton, press OK twice, get triton back to base), I wouldn't call it tedious for the player. It's basically free loot.

Offline yrizoud

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Re: UFO/TFTD hybrid game discussion
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2014, 07:06:24 pm »
I'd be curious to see a hybrid terrain, where some parts are underwater and some are dry.
For example, a Beach Terror :
Levels 0 and 1 are underwater, with sand, rocks, reefs and angry lobstermen.
Levels 2 and 3 are flat sand, dunes, and girls playing beachball.
In this case it's specially interesting that the transition between the two parts is smooth and wide slopes (no choke points like stairs or lifts)

Aliens are not so smart, so these scenarii should be reserved for aqua+land species, and aqua+land XCOM forces.