Author Topic: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.25  (Read 40193 times)

Offline NoelBuddy

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2014, 07:32:12 pm »
And, that "shield" currently-in-suggestions mod would fit like a glove.

Can we make it so that if you shoot an energy weapon as a unit with an active shield there is a random chance that :

A) the unit with the shield blows up
B) the unit with the energy weapon blows up
C) both units blow up

'cause that's why the fate of the universe winds up boiling down to a knife fight in the end.

Offline Edrick

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2014, 07:40:45 pm »
+1. And the worms. Remember Shai-huluds seek the shield users in a frenzy to devour them.
Anyways, I imagine the way to deal with power-armored, gatling laser-boasting, shield-covered Harkonnen troopers would be the same than with Trader Bodyguards: ol'sledgehammer in the face.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2014, 09:55:35 pm »
Start drawing sprites and it'll eventually happen :) Forcefields would really influence tactics, making some units immune to firearms...

IIRC in Dune, force field + laser beam hitting it = nuclear explosion :)

That's why knives and swords were so popular.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 09:59:21 pm by Hobbes »

Offline yrizoud

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2014, 10:02:30 pm »
I'm not very convinced with trying to tie it to the Dune lore, because the XCOM system is based a lot on the player's faction slowly mastering the technology of the opponent. It would feel awkward to see player-controlled Fremen mimic Imperial technology, or player-controlled Atreides mimic Harkonnen technology.
However, an original setting based on earthling settlements on Mars would be lovely. And easier to adapt to XCOM game :)

Offline Edrick

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2014, 11:29:36 pm »
I'm not very convinced with trying to tie it to the Dune lore, because the XCOM system is based a lot on the player's faction slowly mastering the technology of the opponent. It would feel awkward to see player-controlled Fremen mimic Imperial technology, or player-controlled Atreides mimic Harkonnen technology.
However, an original setting based on earthling settlements on Mars would be lovely. And easier to adapt to XCOM game :)


In fact, in Dune it is told how Paul introduces Fremen to ornithopters, lasguns and such (IIRC). And I can guess someone could take certain liberties with the Duniverse: look at Dune II, and its tanks, and power-armor-clad Harkonnens with gatling lasers. I don't recall reading that anywhere and still it worked nicely.

The martian part sounds groovie to me. I immediately thought of Ray Bradbury's Martian Chronicles. I don't know why, but Gollop's plasma weaponry and Bradbury's dark, golden-eyed martians blend perfectly in my mind. Now we only need some kind of "mod fairy" willing to do all that *sigh*.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 11:31:18 pm by Edrick »

Offline BlackLibrary

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2014, 12:45:39 am »
IIRC in Dune, force field + laser beam hitting it = nuclear explosion :)

That's why knives and swords were so popular.

You are 100% correct.  Although on Arrakis, the threat was also from the Sandworms.  Use it too long, and it infuriated Sandworms from all over to attack. 

We're talking personal shields...so the effect was subatomic and lethal to both the shooter and the shielded.  (In our suicidal world today, you'd have countless fools shooting anyway, however...)

But I digress...

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2014, 03:32:02 am »
IIRC in Dune, force field + laser beam hitting it = nuclear explosion :)

That's why knives and swords were so popular.

I preferred to keep quiet about this Herbert's particular idiocy... who needs nuclear weapons if you can make a nuclear-equivalent IED out of 2 relatively inexpensive pieces of military hardware...
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 03:33:41 am by Dioxine »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2014, 05:35:04 am »
I preferred to keep quiet about this Herbert's particular idiocy... who needs nuclear weapons if you can make a nuclear-equivalent IED out of 2 relatively inexpensive pieces of military hardware...

To me it is well explained on the internal politics of the Empire and the Landsraad (the council of the great houses).

The Great Convention in the Dune universe (the treaty that created the empire) dictates that "Use of atomics against humans shall be cause for planetary obliteration". While at the same time "A lasgun-shield explosion was a dangerous variable, could be more powerful than atomics, could kill only the gunner and his shielded target." (quoting from the first Dune novel).

So you really don't want to provoke a nuclear explosion through lasers and shields - if the blast was big enough, your enemies on the Landsraad would most likely claim that atomics were used and demand your house to be exterminated.

To us in the modern western world, this whole logic of limiting casualties through restricting the use of some technologies might sound crazy but there were several cultures in the past that set ritualized rules for warfare, like the Zulus (pre-Shaka, his genius was precisely to get rid of the cerimonial warfare) or the pre-Colombian civilizations of the Americas. And it worked, until they faced enemies (a.k.a. the European nations) who didn't play by those rules.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 05:50:25 am by Hobbes »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2014, 06:21:01 am »
This explanation, while true, doesn't fully explain why nobody* was using explosive or incendiary weapons in Dune - even if shields protected against overpressure (I recall nothing to support this), they certainly didn't protect from fire, heat or the lack of oxygen. So for me the shield-lasgun reaction was sort of handwave on Herbert's part to curb overpowered lasers and have his swordfights. BUT if lasers were so powerful, why not use the same power source to power a railgun... If it hits the shield, it will be absorbed, but a close-miss would probably generate enough of a blast wave to kill a shielded enemy... In addition, energy cannot, as far as we know, be generated out of nothing, so it seems each shield was carrying a power source worth at least several kilotons... which generates even more questions.

Surely, culture can explain a lot of things - it is true that nobody wanted a real war in the Empire, as it could potentially overthrow its social order (how shaky it's been is clearly shown by the success of Paul's crusade - if the Empire was solid and cohesive, he would have no chance of succeeding with what little forces he [only initially I presume] commanded).

Also if a lasgun provokes such reaction... laser is nothing but EM radiation. Why the shields didn't explode when exposed to sunlight, UV, radiowaves, cosmic radiation, etc...

*with the exception of Harconnen siege of the Atreides' palace on Arrakis, but I bet they did it more to show they're bad boys than out of practical reasons.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 06:23:46 am by Dioxine »

Offline arrakis69ct

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2014, 09:38:14 am »
Yeah baby. This is xcom. And the future is mars. No arrakis

Arrrgh

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Offline Edrick

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2014, 07:26:26 pm »
IIRC, there was a Dune Encyclopedia (non-canon, but still) that shed some light on the Holtzmann generator and its creator. Does anyone know if it solves Dioxine's question about shields not blowing up when exposed to other kinds of radiation?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 07:30:01 pm by Edrick »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2014, 08:09:44 pm »
This explanation, while true, doesn't fully explain why nobody* was using explosive or incendiary weapons in Dune - even if shields protected against overpressure (I recall nothing to support this), they certainly didn't protect from fire, heat or the lack of oxygen. So for me the shield-lasgun reaction was sort of handwave on Herbert's part to curb overpowered lasers and have his swordfights. BUT if lasers were so powerful, why not use the same power source to power a railgun... If it hits the shield, it will be absorbed, but a close-miss would probably generate enough of a blast wave to kill a shielded enemy... In addition, energy cannot, as far as we know, be generated out of nothing, so it seems each shield was carrying a power source worth at least several kilotons... which generates even more questions.

Fair questions all but at the same time Dune requires quite suspension of belief for a number of things, starting with the genetic memories of the Bene Gesserit and even the stillsuits (I read someone saying that wearing those suits in the desert would mean that the user would be boiled inside).

Quote
Surely, culture can explain a lot of things - it is true that nobody wanted a real war in the Empire, as it could potentially overthrow its social order (how shaky it's been is clearly shown by the success of Paul's crusade - if the Empire was solid and cohesive, he would have no chance of succeeding with what little forces he [only initially I presume] commanded).

The main weakness of the Empire (and humanity) was its dependence upon the spice - everyone used it and needed it, either to travel through space or to prolong life and IIRC withdrawal from spice was a real pain - "the spice must flow!". That's why Paul defeats the empire, by controlling Arrakis and spice production. And that's why later his son, Leto II, restricts spice production to a minimum, so that mankind is free from its dependence upon spice.

Quote
Also if a lasgun provokes such reaction... laser is nothing but EM radiation. Why the shields didn't explode when exposed to sunlight, UV, radiowaves, cosmic radiation, etc...

Lasers ("light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation") are EM radiation but in a concentrated or coherent state rather than a diffused state like sunlight or the other examples. In fact, almost any type of EM radiation (microwave, UV, gamma, etc,) can be made into a laser, since the 'light' in the acronym refers to the entire EM spectrum. Cosmic radiation is 99% protons and the rest heavier elements, and it is different from EM radiation (lasers/microwave/etc.) since it involves other particles and not photons.

Yeah baby. This is xcom. And the future is mars. No arrakis

Arrrgh

I agree that we're spamming this topic with Dune lore. Perhaps start another separate thread to discuss this?

Offline arrakis69ct

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2014, 11:24:57 am »
Only its a joke. Any idea is good for future jobs "brainstorm". No problem

The problem with dune in my see is the selection of the 3 races. This have the work of the 3 projects differents. The tech is different. The units are different. The graphics and colour are different. Too work to do

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Offline Hythlodaeus

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2014, 02:44:05 pm »
Now that would be an awesome mod.  Fremen fighting offworlders and the CHOAM corporation!  Perfect scenario. 

Technology tree makes sense:
Lasguns
Ixiam Probe or a T-Probe= Mind Probe
Psionics
Ornithopters
Stillsuits
...of course...we got to have Weirding Modules!

Too awesome...

Oh my god, this is indeed perfect for the X-Com mechanics, given that most Fremen battles were fought as skirmishes. More than that, one would be able to follow the book almost literally.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: [GLOBE] random desert world
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2014, 03:12:12 pm »
Oh my god, this is indeed perfect for the X-Com mechanics, given that most Fremen battles were fought as skirmishes. More than that, one would be able to follow the book almost literally.

With the exception that Weirding Modules are not part of the books and were added to the movie because David Lynch was not a fan of 'kung fun' scenes.