[Idea]Depleted Elerium/Elerium Craft Weapons

[XCOMFan419]

Watching some Youtube videos I realized Xenonauts had an advantage over us(!). After researching Alenium (their version of Elerium) the Xenonauts are able to equip their craft with Alenium Torpedos.

My initial idea was to make Elerium Missiles, which would be produced in the Workshop for a small amount of elerium per missile. I scrapped that idea, thinking it was too expensive. Then I thought of Depleted Elerium. Much like Depleted Alenium and Depleted Uranium, the Depleted Elerium can be used in a variety of applications. Armour and weapons mostly. Craft and HWP can have Depleted Elerium Armour, and Advanced Power/Flying Suits made out of Depleted Elerium instead of Alien Alloys.

Depleted Elerium would come from intact UFO Power sources, about 75 per unit (After all, what happens to the Elerium after its all expended?) and can be used for the applications above.

But then I got thinking again. Maybe the Elerium Explosives wasn't such a bad idea, like the Elerium Bomb mod for the Small Launcher. So I drew up some conclusions:

Infantry Weapons:
Elerium Rocket: Used in the Rocket Launcher. Provides a larger explosion than the depleted Elerium rocket, but not as large as the Blaster Launcher.
Depleted Elerium Rocket: Used in the Rocket Launcher. Provides a larger explosion than the Large rocket.
Depleted Elerium Blaster Bomb: Cheaper, but smaller blast. Blaster launcher ammo.
Depleted Elerium Grenade: A cheaper version of the Alien Grenade. Smaller blast radius.

Craft Weapons
Elerium Missile and Launcher: Craft weapons which are slightly less powerful than Avalanches, but still powerful. Carries 8.
Elerium Rocket and Launcher: Craft weapons which are inaccurate but less powerful than Avalanches. Still powerful, carries 24 (Like the Hydra 70 rockets used on Helicopters)
Depleted Elerium Missile and Launcher: Craft weapons which are more powerful than stingrays but less than Avalanches. More are carried (say 12)
Depleted Elerium Rocket and Launcher: Craft weapons which are more powerful than stingrays but heavily inaccurate. Carries 32.

Craft
Depleted Elerium Interceptor: A heavily armoured interceptor that is faster than the regular interceptor with no rent. Made with Depleted Elerium.
Advanced Interceptor: A heavily armoured interceptor that is faster than both the Elerium Interceptor and regular Interceptor with no rent. Made with Alien Alloys, Depleted Elerium and a UFO navigation.

HWP
Depleted Elerium tanks. 'Nuff said.

Armour
Advanced Personal Armour: Made with Depleted Elerium rather than Alien Alloys. Stronger than Personal Armour.
Advanced Power Armour: Made with Depleted Elerium rather than Alien Alloys. Stronger than Power Suit.
Advanced Flying Armour: Made with Depleted Elerium rather than Alien Alloys. Stronger than Flying Suit.

Now while most of what I said seems to be repetitive, there's not much to say otherwise.

This is just an idea, and I have no clue where to start. That's why I'd like someone more experienced to take the ropes of this project if they wanted to. If not, I'll provide a skeleton mod so that someone can expand on it.

[moriarty]

I'm not sure about "depleted elerium":
- depleted uranium isn't used for its explosive properties, but because it is heavy (or rather, because it is dense), so your AP bullets pack more kinetic energy
- elerium in xcom lore is something that converts matter, in this case itself, into energy. So, in effect, there shouldn't be any residue or "depleted" elerium - it just got converted and disappeared.
- even if the elerium does leave something behind, it probably wouldn't be volatile

Your ideas appear to use two concepts, actually: heavy armor based on depleted elerium, which would make the most sense, but somehow collides with the whole alien alloy idea, and explosives based on depleted elerium, which collides with the whole basic elerium technology.

If you want to enable the player to create "cheaper" elerium-explosive-weapons, perhaps add a manufacturing step and allow the player to create elerium fractions? Or two elerium missiles from one unit of elerium? Or, even simpler, make missiles manufactured from alien grenades? You will have those in abundance even in early months.

[Falko]

or use one of the alien-dismantle mods like (Break2Elerium)

[XCOMFan419]

I'm not sure about "depleted elerium":
- depleted uranium isn't used for its explosive properties, but because it is heavy (or rather, because it is dense), so your AP bullets pack more kinetic energy
- elerium in xcom lore is something that converts matter, in this case itself, into energy. So, in effect, there shouldn't be any residue or "depleted" elerium - it just got converted and disappeared.
- even if the elerium does leave something behind, it probably wouldn't be volatile

Your ideas appear to use two concepts, actually: heavy armor based on depleted elerium, which would make the most sense, but somehow collides with the whole alien alloy idea, and explosives based on depleted elerium, which collides with the whole basic elerium technology.

If you want to enable the player to create "cheaper" elerium-explosive-weapons, perhaps add a manufacturing step and allow the player to create elerium fractions? Or two elerium missiles from one unit of elerium? Or, even simpler, make missiles manufactured from alien grenades? You will have those in abundance even in early months.

I guess you do have a point. When I thought of the Depleted Elerium weapons I was thinking along the lines of Depleted Alenium weapons in Xenonauts. Now with this information, it seems more logical to use Depleted Elerium for armour, if possible, and manufacture Elerium Missiles/Rockets. But the thing is, is it possible to manufacture 2 things for the cost of one Elerium? I know the Cannon rounds come in packs of 50, but is that by-purchase only and not available by manufacturing?

[BlackLibrary]

Interesting concept.  I completely concur with moriarty.

Items that have +1 likes for logical, applicable ideas that would be interesting are:

Infantry Weapons:
Depleted Elerium Blaster Bomb: I could see this as the ammo for the Terran version of the weapon.
Depleted Elerium Grenade: Dirty grenade.  How to find a half point between greande and alien grenade?  Not sure.

Craft Weapons
Depleted Elerium Missile and Launcher: A heavy missile.  If only there was a way to mitigate damage to ships knocked down by aircraft.  This would punch holes thru the hull nicely.
Depleted Elerium Rocket and Launcher: Hmm...sort of fires 20 to take down a terror ship, but in incredibly rapid concession?  I like the idea.

Craft
Advanced Interceptor: Booyah!  Awesome!

However...
Depleted Elerium Interceptor: Just can't see it.  If it was that good, the Aliens would have done this already. 

Alien Alloy is for protection.  I can see it being a component to make the Tank or Craft vehicles, but no one is going to wear radioactive armor and think they are safer.  Even DU sees use in Chobham armor.  But other than that...

[Falko]

But the thing is, is it possible to manufacture 2 things for the cost of one Elerium?

see producedItems in https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Ruleset_Reference_%28OpenXcom%29#Manufacture

[XCOMFan419]

see producedItems in https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Ruleset_Reference_%28OpenXcom%29#Manufacture

Ah, thanks Falco.

Interesting concept.  I completely concur with moriarty.

Items that have +1 likes for logical, applicable ideas that would be interesting are:

Infantry Weapons:
Depleted Elerium Blaster Bomb: I could see this as the ammo for the Terran version of the weapon.
Depleted Elerium Grenade: Dirty grenade.  How to find a half point between greande and alien grenade?  Not sure.

Craft Weapons
Depleted Elerium Missile and Launcher: A heavy missile.  If only there was a way to mitigate damage to ships knocked down by aircraft.  This would punch holes thru the hull nicely.
Depleted Elerium Rocket and Launcher: Hmm...sort of fires 20 to take down a terror ship, but in incredibly rapid concession?  I like the idea.

Craft
Advanced Interceptor: Booyah!  Awesome!

However...
Depleted Elerium Interceptor: Just can't see it.  If it was that good, the Aliens would have done this already. 

Alien Alloy is for protection.  I can see it being a component to make the Tank or Craft vehicles, but no one is going to wear radioactive armor and think they are safer.  Even DU sees use in Chobham armor.  But other than that...

Very informative on what goes on in my head is actually useful  (Roughly about 50%)

I too was skeptical about the Depleted Elerium Interceptor when I first thought of it. But the Advanced Interceptor does sound more logical. Probably a step up from the Retaliator if everything goes according to plan.

I guess if Elerium is truly radioactive, than it as an armour, even when Depleted is still a bad idea. Some soldiers still fear that they are in radioactive tanks with the whole DU armour IIRC. It's why they don't use DU bullets.

[Arthanor]

Elerium-115 seems to convert itself into energy indeed, but there is nothing to say that there isn't an Elerium-X (X<115) left over that's not active, heavy and "useless". But honestly I don't think it adds much to the game. And I don't see how you would obtain it either.. There is no rule to get 1 depleted Elerium for each 1 Elerium used by crafts.. Similarly, other things that require elerium are expended (plasma/blaster ammo) or thought to last "forever" (flying suit or overtank).

I like the idea of using Elerium for more. That's why I was a proponent of Elerium bombs making it in the Alien Armoury Expanded, and why I added Elerium rockets as a craft weapon in the XCom Armoury Expanded, to follow on the development of the Elerium Bomb.

But beyond that, what "hole" is there to fill for depleted Elerium? Explosives? Maybe something between the grenade and alien grenade but.. depleted Elerium is depleted = unreactive, so it will not explode! Armor? The alien alloy based power/flying suits are already protective enough. Giving something even better would require giving aliens something better than plasma.

The only use I can see is even better armor piercing ammo for conventional weapons (ie better than alloy ammo). But we already have so many alternatives in the laser/gauss/plasma weapons that I don't think it would be useful.

I could see a depleted Elerium missile for crafts (as an early upgrade for missiles, to be outdone by active Elerium missiles and the fusion weapon). The most interesting one to me would be a depleted Elerium rocket for the rocket launcher. An AP (yeah, not explosive), high damage rocket. I can't really get behind an elerium rocket though, since that's pretty much what the blaster launcher and Elerium bomb for small launcher do.

Dirty weapon are really not suited for XCom. We're trying to defend the Earth, not pollute it. The effect of dirty weapon is to contaminate an area, while what we are intending to do is kill the aliens fast so they don't mess up with the area.

As for a craft? What part of it uses depleted Elerium? Depleted Elerium is not a source of energy, so not the engine.. The armor..? Even the avenger is made of alien alloy, you'd have to one-up the ultimate craft. So all it leaves is the weapons, where depleted Elerium missiles would work, as I said above.

[XCOMFan419]

Elerium-115 seems to convert itself into energy indeed, but there is nothing to say that there isn't an Elerium-X (X<115) left over that's not active, heavy and "useless". But honestly I don't think it adds much to the game. And I don't see how you would obtain it either.. There is no rule to get 1 depleted Elerium for each 1 Elerium used by crafts.. Similarly, other things that require elerium are expended (plasma/blaster ammo) or thought to last "forever" (flying suit or overtank).

What I was thinking was adding in Depleted Elerium whenever there is an intact UFO Power Source, just like regular Elerium. 75-50 units or so. I mean, they do have to travel to Earth and everything and they can resupply in orbit with all those supply ships laying around. (Of course that's just my excuse)

I like the idea of using Elerium for more. That's why I was a proponent of Elerium bombs making it in the Alien Armoury Expanded, and why I added Elerium rockets as a craft weapon in the XCom Armoury Expanded, to follow on the development of the Elerium Bomb.

But beyond that, what "hole" is there to fill for depleted Elerium? Explosives? Maybe something between the grenade and alien grenade but.. depleted Elerium is depleted = unreactive, so it will not explode! Armor? The alien alloy based power/flying suits are already protective enough. Giving something even better would require giving aliens something better than plasma.

The only use I can see is even better armor piercing ammo for conventional weapons (ie better than alloy ammo). But we already have so many alternatives in the laser/gauss/plasma weapons that I don't think it would be useful.

I could see a depleted Elerium missile for crafts (as an early upgrade for missiles, to be outdone by active Elerium missiles and the fusion weapon). The most interesting one to me would be a depleted Elerium rocket for the rocket launcher. An AP (yeah, not explosive), high damage rocket. I can't really get behind an elerium rocket though, since that's pretty much what the blaster launcher and Elerium bomb for small launcher do.

Dirty weapon are really not suited for XCom. We're trying to defend the Earth, not pollute it. The effect of dirty weapon is to contaminate an area, while what we are intending to do is kill the aliens fast so they don't mess up with the area.

As for a craft? What part of it uses depleted Elerium? Depleted Elerium is not a source of energy, so not the engine.. The armor..? Even the avenger is made of alien alloy, you'd have to one-up the ultimate craft. So all it leaves is the weapons, where depleted Elerium missiles would work, as I said above.

As for the rest of this:

Depleted Elerium would act like the Depleted Alenium in Xenonauts, or as the research in Xenonauts says "Low Grade Alenium." So it wouldn't be entirely depleted as much as it is nearly useless as a fuel source but still useful for explosives. Afterall, you do use Elerium to craft Alien Grenades and Blaster Bombs.

(Also for future reference: Missiles are more powerful and guided. Rockets are to be used in clusters and are unguided, hence the large capacity and inaccuracy)

The Depleted Elerium fighter-interceptor would be made of Depleted Elerium and Alien Alloys, but there would only be a layer of Depleted Elerium like in composite armour where you use multiple layers to create a sturdy frame.

[Arthanor]

Source: Alright, I guess that makes sense. Given the length of the trip UFOs make, they should have some depleted fuel lying around (if there is such a thing). You might even consider giving some if the power source is blown up. As it is less reactive, some could be left while all the active elerium exploded.

Rocket/missile: Thanks for the clarification. I'll change the name in the XAE to Elerium Missile for the craft weapon. A depleted elerium version could work well too, then, as a much more affordable (since there are less use for depleted elerium and an equal or greater source) version.

For the man portable weapon, I guess rocket is the appropriate term? A depleted elerium rocket as an upgrade to the large rocket could well work if you claim it still has some explosive property, or as a really high damage ap weapon which would be entirely new. That would allow your rocket launcher users to "snipe" without danger for collateral damage. That would be especially useful in terror missions when there are civilians around but you need a high damage, precise shot to kill a terrorist unit.

For crafts, I'm still not convinced. If alloys are good enough for the avenger and UFOs, they should be good enough for other XCom crafts too. Unless you want to change that too to remain consistent, at which point the world is your oyster.

[XCOMFan419]

Source: Alright, I guess that makes sense. Given the length of the trip UFOs make, they should have some depleted fuel lying around (if there is such a thing). You might even consider giving some if the power source is blown up. As it is less reactive, some could be left while all the active elerium exploded.

Rocket/missile: Thanks for the clarification. I'll change the name in the XAE to Elerium Missile for the craft weapon. A depleted elerium version could work well too, then, as a much more affordable (since there are less use for depleted elerium and an equal or greater source) version.

For the man portable weapon, I guess rocket is the appropriate term? A depleted elerium rocket as an upgrade to the large rocket could well work if you claim it still has some explosive property, or as a really high damage ap weapon which would be entirely new. That would allow your rocket launcher users to "snipe" without danger for collateral damage. That would be especially useful in terror missions when there are civilians around but you need a high damage, precise shot to kill a terrorist unit.

For crafts, I'm still not convinced. If alloys are good enough for the avenger and UFOs, they should be good enough for other XCom crafts too. Unless you want to change that too to remain consistent, at which point the world is your oyster.

Late replies, aw yea!

Any ways:

1. I plan for the depleted Elerium to be there when the power source is intact. I'd imagine that if the power source blew up, the Elerium does too, which also destroys the Depleted Elerium.

2. No problem. But rockets are usually cheaper and less powerful than Missiles. For comparison, look at the Hydra-70 Rocket and the Hellfire-2 Missile, both of which are carried on the Apache Attack Helicopter. Some fighter jets also have rockets of their own kind (See: A-10 Warthog) so that's where I got the idea of the Elerium/Depleted Elerium Missiles and Rockets.

3. Agreed. I guess the Elerium Rocket for the Rocket Launcher was a long shot any ways, considering how easy it is to stock even the Blaster Launcher.

4. *Shrug* I like the idea of the Advanced Interceptor. The scientists deplete the elerium as much as possible, send it down to Manufacturing, and then they work on making the interceptor. Tanks would work too, and could possibly be added into my Tanks, Drones, Sectopods mod which I should probably update with a heavier balance. I feel like I left some things OP. Probably add in the Tank/Artillery and now I'm rambling on.

Of course I'll probably add in a research option: Depleted Elerium Constructions and say in the UFOpaedia article that the Scientists found out a way to deplete the Elerium even further for safe construction use.

Thus leads to another idea:

Instead of calling it Depleted Elerium, I will call it Low-Grade Elerium, like how it is in Xenonauts. This is what is left over from used fuel. It is also known as Elerium X. This will be used to create the explosives. There will be a research item, called Elerium Depletion. This will allow you to deplete the Low-Grade Elerium even further for safe use in Construction (So it isn't volatile and as radioactive) and with Depleted Elerium Constructions, will allow you to make DE Tanks and DE-Alloy Tanks (ex. DE Tank/Rocket Launcher, DE Tank/Laser Cannon) and the Advanced Interceptor, once UFO Navigation and Alien Alloys are researched.

I also plan for the Depleted Elerium vehicles to be a shade of which the Elerium is in-game when you "dissect" a UFO power source.

Of course I will build a proper tech tree later so someone experienced can work on this with more of an idea.

[Arthanor]

Better late than never! I like the idea of a new resource in the game, as there are so few ways to constrain in-game economy without over-constraining it..

1- I guess if the power source and elerium blows up, recovering what's left, scattered all over the place, might not be worth it.. was just a thought to try to make it more available than Elerium but I agree it doesn't quite work.

2- Although I love talking about XCom weaponry, I have to admit having little interest in its real life counterpart. It's good to have someone knowledgeable sometimes   For crafts, more weapons is better, although there are only few parameters to tweak, so it is hard to not make them redundant after a while. Cannons are covered pretty well with the alloy ammo, gauss and improved laser but missiles have seen little attention. I only know of my Elerium Missiles, DE ones would be great.

3- I guess you don't like the ap rocket idea. Maybe I'll have to pursue that myself. Otherwise, maybe using DE as an upgrade ammo to gauss weapons? Gauss weapons work by accelerating chunks of heavy something at the enemy. DE would be heavier (better!) If the basic gauss is an equivalent to lasers, maybe gauss + DE ammo could be the equivalent of Elerium focused lasers?

4- I like advanced interceptors too, that's why the XCom Armoury Expanded - Crafts, makes use of all 5 new fighters (Alloy Interceptor, Retaliator, Thunderstorm, Raven and Sentinel) tweaked to answer different needs and offer a smoother progression, up to just under avenger power-level. I'm just not sure DE armor adds enough to justify stretching cannon (suddenly, alien alloy isn't enough, and the UFOs and vanilla new crafts are using subpar material for armor) and balance (if it's tougher, then UFOs become weaker by comparison).

There's always space within the current limits (from conventional damage to plasma/blaster damage) for more manufacturable ammo, since you always have to manufacture some any ways. Hence why I suggest DE ammo for gauss weapons. But weapon type, armor, crafts and tank platforms are different. If there are too many, at some point you don't have time to finish manufacturing one and already discover the next best thing. So you end up skipping some things in between and all that work goes to waste.

If you don't fit the new stuff within the existing limits and add a new "best" weapon type/armor/craft/tank chassis, then the aliens become weaker in endgame unless you upgrade plasma weapons/armors (harsh on the early game) or give them new weapons and UFOs for their endgame (complicated, but not impossible).

Sorry for the long post. I hope it doesn't come across as overly critical. I like the idea, and would be happy to help with the ruleset if I can (leaving for a trip in.. 2 weeks..!)

[XCOMFan419]

I really don't know where most of this would fit actually. I just think of it as a step-up from most vanilla stuff ingame.

[Arthanor]

haha I spend hours thinking of this Balancing weapons is sort of why I created my mod, although it only has alloy ammo and delayed lasers. Currently everything else is up to the player, by using other mods (laser tech tweak and Plasma needs Elerium). I am considering a system which would leave "anchor points" to be used by modders to "latch on" with their mod, but making a stand-alone and compatible mod is tricky.

Back on topic:

Here is how I see the weaponry progression with current mods:
1- Conventional weapons (with some added stuff like grenade launchers, flamthrowers, shotguns, etc)
2- Alloy ammo (fits in conventional weapons but upgrade damage)
3- Gauss and Laser Weapons
4- Elerium based lasers
5- Plasma and Blaster Launcher (the real endgame weapon, and I think that shouldn't change unless aliens come up with something better).

As I suggested above, I think using DE ammo to "upgrade" Gauss weapons to a tier4 weapon would work well. Since it is based on depleted Elerium, it can't really be better than plasma. It could be another upgrade to tier 1, but new ammo for basic guns is already done, so that's kind of boring.. Of course, upgrading Gauss is kind of niche (but it would work in the FMP, and I am also starting to use Gauss, so would work in the XAE too).

For armor/tanks/crafts, I really don't know.. If DE is better than Alien Alloy, it's increasing the upper power limit and that's much more work if you want to keep things balanced. It could be interesting though, and I know the "Equal Terms" mod is supposed to introduce new alien weaponry in a later version, so you could balance it with that.

[XCOMFan419]

Unfortunately, I plan for this to be a stand-alone mod rather than anything else.

I think I might just stick to the craft/craft weapons to now, and later when I know I have sprites secured change the craft colour and some HWP. I might consider a weapon line for DE weapons, but I'm not sure. Railguns maybe. Maybe no infantry weapons due to possible radioactivity.

But I do like the idea of an AP rocket. Small blast radius, but has a tonne of power.