Author Topic: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia  (Read 15346 times)

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2014, 05:42:14 am »
Here you go Sir, nice & clean (the grain has its own perks, while the grainy Muton is simply ugly, the grainy Sectoid has its charm; my take on it might need further adjustments).

I'm also adding the proper Ufopaedia palette (.act), it's straight from Falko so it can't be wrong in any way :)




« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 05:45:50 am by Dioxine »

Offline Aldorn

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2014, 10:52:09 am »
Here you go Sir, nice & clean (the grain has its own perks, while the grainy Muton is simply ugly, the grainy Sectoid has its charm; my take on it might need further adjustments).

I'm also adding the proper Ufopaedia palette (.act), it's straight from Falko so it can't be wrong in any way :)
Thank you very much
You will be in charge to make it for next pictures from NeoWorm, if even he decide to draw some more aliens

I tried what you proposed (many tests), exactly, but resizing it, before or after, made lots of small orange pixels

Thanks for the palette too, I will compare it to the ufopaedia palette from Sup, should be the same

I will alert Neo about this, so he isn't surprised
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 10:53:54 am by Aldorn »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2014, 06:28:44 pm »
Thank you very much
You will be in charge to make it for next pictures from NeoWorm, if even he decide to draw some more aliens

I tried what you proposed (many tests), exactly, but resizing it, before or after, made lots of small orange pixels

No problem. What you say about resizing is puzzling, I haven't noticed such an effect... I do resize before converting the palette. Then, after converting, it's often neccessary to go back and increase saturation and/or brightness, or adjust the hue so the coloration lies more in line with the ufopaedia palette. Generally it's better to avoid saturated greens and oranges as it tends to create a lot of these 'rogue' pixels.

Offline Aldorn

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2014, 01:29:39 am »
No problem. What you say about resizing is puzzling, I haven't noticed such an effect... I do resize before converting the palette. Then, after converting, it's often neccessary to go back and increase saturation and/or brightness, or adjust the hue so the coloration lies more in line with the ufopaedia palette. Generally it's better to avoid saturated greens and oranges as it tends to create a lot of these 'rogue' pixels.
I wondered if you had a secret, now I know :P

Back to the 3) Brain storming on a way to "display" tech tree information

I worked on different technologies :
- aim is to propose a brief description of what may be expected
- display what else could be needed (in order to not try to interrogate a engineer or a medic if we just need to search Elerium to reach our next goal)
- second aim is to alert on next technology
- added also cost info (i.e. men.hours needed) in title, within parenthesis, so that we have more elements to build our strategy
- tech tree is a supplementary step, but is not really time consuming
- I use many screens for displaying info to avoid overloading screens, but all are unlocks at the same time and will be correctly sequenced via listorder
- in examples below, first step, also "Alloy Technology Tree", is unlocks by Alien Alloys, then go on weapons ! (stunning technology is missing)
- as an example of interest :
   -> Given that Mass Accelerator is triggered by MIB (also meet them, and discover some Mass Accelerator weapons, interrogate right MIB unit)
   -> Assuming that Heat-Ray is reached before : next step is Laser, which needs both Heat-Ray + Mass Accelerator
   -> This is also a way to notify that another technology (Mass Accelerator) is mandatory to go ahead on advanced technologies
   -> I do not mention how to search for Mass Accelerator Technology, but as soon as right MIB unit is interrogated, it allows "Mass Accelerator Technology Tree"

Some examples
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 01:44:11 am by Aldorn »

Offline Aldorn

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2014, 01:30:21 am »
Some more

Offline LeBashar

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2014, 01:07:02 pm »
I'm not really like this exhaustive pedia. For me, the unknow is a part of the research, and it should remain the same. The thing which should be changed is to give more information of what scientists assume : "we have discover that, and we think with some studies of this we can probably found something usefull".

In my mind there is two thing to avoid :
- too easy research, like in vanilla's
- too difficult because totally unrevealed research path, like in some mods were you need many step but without any clues about that

So there must be some step, and the player should have some clues, but not the exactly right path.

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2014, 02:20:45 pm »
This looks awesome.  Seriously great work.

Offline Aldorn

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2014, 02:26:13 pm »
I'm not really like this exhaustive pedia. For me, the unknow is a part of the research, and it should remain the same. The thing which should be changed is to give more information of what scientists assume : "we have discover that, and we think with some studies of this we can probably found something usefull".

In my mind there is two thing to avoid :
- too easy research, like in vanilla's
- too difficult because totally unrevealed research path, like in some mods were you need many step but without any clues about that

Also giving time needed, even if not rational, is a good thing (especially in a mod making research harder to be performed, either by research cost or by reducing number of scientists as I'm intended to do)

So there must be some step, and the player should have some clues, but not the exactly right path.

I don't disagree at all as keeping mystery is nice, but :
- research tree is multiplied per 4 (also I don't know exactly but a lot of steps are added)
- if you have a look at all games from more than ten years, a global tech tree is quite always provided

Also giving time needed, even if not rational, is a good way to allow a real research strategy (especially in a mod making research harder to be performed, either by research cost or by reducing number of scientists as I'm intended to do)

I will bear in mind your advice, and wait for eventual some other opinions  :)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 02:29:06 pm by Aldorn »

Offline Recruit69

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2014, 02:54:34 pm »
I'm not really like this exhaustive pedia. For me, the unknow is a part of the research, and it should remain the same. The thing which should be changed is to give more information of what scientists assume : "we have discover that, and we think with some studies of this we can probably found something usefull".

In my mind there is two thing to avoid :
- too easy research, like in vanilla's
- too difficult because totally unrevealed research path, like in some mods were you need many step but without any clues about that

So there must be some step, and the player should have some clues, but not the exactly right path.

I agree with this.

In real life, research leads to unknown things, and how are we supposed to know what's new after that?

I found OpenXcom/Vanilla Xcom interesting, a bit of mystery enhances the game experience overall. Even using Solar's FMP, the game has got much more exciting now as I ponder the mysteries of what my research team will discover!

Quote
I don't disagree at all as keeping mystery is nice, but :
- research tree is multiplied per 4 (also I don't know exactly but a lot of steps are added)
- if you have a look at all games from more than ten years, a global tech tree is quite always provided

Just because games in all recent and old years have a provided tech tree doesn't mean that it's better. It's just "common", not necessarily best. Being different gives an game a real edge.

Offline pkrcel

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2014, 04:09:35 pm »
There is also the fact that in some other games the research tree unfolds in different ways, and it's INTEGRAL part of the mechanics (think Civ) while in Xcom it's more like a 'collateral'....I mean, you only STRICTLY need the Alien research & craft construction to be able to complete the game (thou good luck going to cydonia with Rifles!) and this gives you some insights in alien tech that you can use (mostly personal armors which share a lot with crafts).


I personally would like something on the grounds proposed by LeBashar: do not spoil right away research giving a perfet 'tree' but give some indication on what COULD be discovered (so that if we need a Commander, we know we should capture one....vanilla Martian Solution anyone?)


Offline Aldorn

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2014, 05:20:51 pm »
So I am at least convinced to make this as an option  ;)

Offline LeBashar

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2014, 08:20:47 pm »
Quote
if you have a look at all games from more than ten years, a global tech tree is quite always provided

I think it's a common mistake. Take for example "civilization". In your first game, even with the complete tech tree, you don't really know what is the better path, because you lack of real clues.
After you finish the game many time and begun to found it too easy, you'll read strategy guides (or made your own) and after that, the tech tree has lost all point because you perfectly know what is usefull and what is not.
And this is why I say it's a mistake : when you discover the game you don't need it because there is so much to discover, and when you are a veteran, you don't need it no more = tech complete tech tree is useless in both of cases.

But you lack clues for help you to make the right choice, in your first game. In civ's, this has been partially solve by "advisors", which give you advice for what next tech you should discover in function of some flavor (military advisor or economic, etc.). But it is not sufficiant because the advisor don't tell you why you should discover this before that.

In openXcom, we have the vanilla's model :
- nearly no hided tech, and the only "tech path" is clearly explain in ufopedia : "you need a leader", or "you need a commander".
And the TFTD's :
- some hided tech but with no clue. You must research "depp one" to be able to search aquaplastic, but nowhere it is said, and it is not even logical. The same for vibrolam which need calcinite autopsie, but why ? you could be stoped in research tree but without any way to know how to restart.

The right path for me is between this two. You need to have as much clues in the game to avoid the need of searching elsewhere informations in wiki or else, but, you should don't have all informations, because it will break the mysterie and discovery part (and was boring for those who don't even read when there is too much informations).

And for the time the research will consume, the player will quickly be informed of that, by begining it. After few days, the progression show him if it will be a short research or not.

Offline Aldorn

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2014, 02:36:30 am »
Right right right, even if I stay seduced by my idea

I just have to precise, that at the beginning, only Alloy Tech Tree is available (as many are against this, I wonder if it's not so obvious that you don't have access to all the 7 screens from start, just the first one on Alloy Tech)
EDIT : at the beginning, you have nothing at all ; once you search for Alien Alloys, it unlocks Alloy Tech Tree

To display the Tech Tree of next technology (also Gauss), you have to fit requirements (also last Gauss step + eventual external dependencies)

Same for Heat-Ray : you don't even hear of it before seeing the reference to "Heat-Ray Technology Tree" in Gauss Tech Tree, and you don't know anything more about it more at this point except that it exists

But this will be an option
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 02:41:36 am by Aldorn »

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2014, 05:35:02 am »
Coming back to this...

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [UFOPAEDIA] Modding Ufopaedia
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2014, 10:33:47 am »
Regarding tech trees: they're crucial in MP games (Civ!), so the players have an equal footing lore-wise, but in single games, it is like LeBashar said... For a rookie, it's a spoiler, for a veteran, it's useless. However I agree that there should be clues provided, either by previous research, or by cheap opening topics (ex. Laser Weapons) which would broadly explain what to expect of that technology branch.