Author Topic: [BETA] Rebalance aliens  (Read 35365 times)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2014, 08:04:42 pm »
I was pretty sure it said accuracy... I shouldn't post right after work.

Now excuse me, I need to stick my head in the oven.

Offline wsmithjr

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2014, 04:28:16 am »
Some more minor issues:

Even with the 1.5b ruleset, I can still purchase HC-AP ammo at game start.  I did a little checking and figured out how to fix it for you.  In your ruleset, you removed the costBuy line for the STR_HC_AP_AMMO.  However, since it's still defined in Xcom1Ruleset.rul, it carries through.  But, if you put "costBuy: 0" in your ruleset, then it resets that value and it won't show up for sale.  I just tested it and it actually works. :)

Also, I'm in February and can research a Plasma Sniper Rifle that was recovered on the last mission.  The only research projects I've completed at this point is Alien Alloys and Medikit.  I took a shot at figuring this one out too, and was able to get it removed from the research list at my current point in the game.  However, I'm unable to test it further to make sure it is research-able when it *should* be and doesn't have any unwanted side effects.

Your ruleset is as follows:

Code: [Select]
research:
  - name: STR_PLASMA_SNIPER_RIFLE
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    needItem: true     
  - name: STR_PLASMA_SNIPER_RIFLE_PROD
    cost: 700
    points: 25   
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALIEN_ORIGINS
      - STR_ELERIUM_115
      - STR_PLASMA_SNIPER_RIFLE
    listOrder: 3950

I "reversed" the logic of the way you have it set up and treated it similarly to the Plasma Canon as follows:

Code: [Select]
research:
  - name: STR_PLASMA_SNIPER_RIFLE
    cost: 700
    points: 25   
    needItem: true
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALIEN_ORIGINS
      - STR_ELERIUM_115
      - STR_PLASMA_SNIPER_RIFLE_PROD
    listOrder: 3950
  - name: STR_PLASMA_SNIPER_RIFLE_PROD
    cost: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALIEN_ORIGINS
      - STR_ELERIUM_115
    unlocks:
      - STR_PLASMA_SNIPER_RIFLE

Hmm ... looking at that I'm not sure why you would even need the _PROD definition.  Well, I'm certainly no expert so I won't presume to think this solves the problem as you intend it to be solved, but perhaps it's helpful to you in figuring that out.  It has at least removed it as research-able from my game in the meantime.  I suppose I'll see if it shows up when it is supposed to.  ???

Quote
Have you try autocannon ? if yes, do you use it ? it's the most modified weapon compared to vanilla.

I haven't been able to use it much yet.  I carry it every mission but it's hard to get deployed in a useful spot due to high TU cost and friendly-fire concerns.  Also, a few times the soldier carrying it has been taken out before it could fire.  I'm anxious to make it useful, though.  My go-to weapon seems to be the heavy cannon loaded with HE.  The guy carrying that has more kills than anybody.  I've relied on HE/grenades for most of the kills to this point.  I've soured on the sniper rifle a bit because it's no longer 1-shot kill.  Have to be much more careful how it's used for that reason.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 08:37:37 am by wsmithjr »

Offline LeBashar

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2014, 01:23:38 pm »
hum, don't change anything to research of aliens weapons. I'll explain the logic :
Some item give you a fake research which only unlock research patch. It is invisible to you (or it should be). For example, sniper plasma and toxigun a pre-requisite for research of powersuit. But you don't need research theses two weapons, you need only to found them in battle, and bring back to your base.

The idea is your scientists receive mission to design a better armor against theses new weapons, even if we don't know yet exactly how they work : soldier report they kills them in personal armour and it is sufficient to research better armor.

So when you bring back some weapon they unlock some research. But for using them and produce them, you need research them as normal. (maybe in future I will make two step for each weapon : first you learn, quiclky, how to use them, but unable to produce. Then, you'll learn how to produce. It's more realistic, but maybe this could be make some unwanted gameplay effects by releasing aliens weapon too quickly in xcom hands. I don't known yet.)

But there is two problems with your game :
- found a sniper rifle in febuary is too early
- you shouldn't see the research

I will investigate.

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I haven't been able to use it much yet.  I carry it every mission but it's hard to get deployed in a useful spot due to high TU cost and friendly-fire concerns.  Also, a few times the soldier carrying it has been taken out before it could fire.  I'm anxious to make it useful, though.

Try to use it like a real LMG. The guy who carry it should be cover by his friend when he run to position. He don't need to reserve TUs because he can't fire after moving so, he must run as fast as he can to reach the good position. The best position is not behind his friend, but at their side. Smoke grenade often usefull to help him to run in a good position. Often, I sent another guy with him, which carry sniper rifle or rocket launcher. They two can save the battle (or just do nothing in waiting lol )

You can also make him shot the first, before his friends run in his line of fire. For example, in farms maps, explode farms with autocannon before run to them. You can also hide him behind wood wall, and force fire throught it will clear the way and make bad surprise for aliens.

Quote
I've soured on the sniper rifle a bit because it's no longer 1-shot kill.  Have to be much more careful how it's used for that reason.

In many cases the shot has so badly injured the alien that in his turn it will run away even it is not dead.

Offline LeBashar

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2014, 02:15:06 pm »
I've made search but it seem impossible to make invisible the unlocking research if it has the "needitem" flag.  :-\

Offline wsmithjr

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2014, 03:15:00 pm »
hum, don't change anything to research of aliens weapons. I'll explain the logic :
Some item give you a fake research which only unlock research patch. It is invisible to you (or it should be). For example, sniper plasma and toxigun a pre-requisite for research of powersuit. But you don't need research theses two weapons, you need only to found them in battle, and bring back to your base.

Yeah, figured something else was going on I hadn't figured out yet.  Probably should have mentioned it and then left it alone. :-\

I can't say exactly when I found the Plasma Sniper Rifle but I think it was from an Excavator.  It was before my 2nd terror mission and the only UFOs I've recovered are Small Scouts, Large Scouts and an Excavator.  Now, in March, I have 2 of them in my inventory and I didn't run across another Excavator, so I'm not sure if that came from the terror site or not.  Sorry, I don't have more saves to better track it down.

Only other mods I'm using are Luke's Extra UFOs and Hobbes Terrain.

Thanks.

Offline LeBashar

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2014, 04:10:03 pm »
I just make another one month before sniper plasma appear it should be enought.

And change my mind about research path. Because it not be possible to do what I have think, I change pre-requisite for powered armor to a new tech "improved armor" quick to make, and unlockable by same thing than plasma cannon (any research of plasma rifle, heavy, blaster or sniper). This new armor tech also indicate what others tech are needed for research new armor, so the player should not be lost.

Offline wsmithjr

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2014, 05:56:01 am »
Sorry to be bearer of bad news, but just downloaded 1.6 from mod site and it's missing Sniper_AA_clip.gif from Resources.

Started up when I put a dummy file in it's place.

On to next experience.  Got to April and ran into my first Sectoid terror.  It wasn't exactly pleasant.  I'm sensing a theme in that once again, my Skyranger started out surrounded by 5 Cyberdiscs.  I guess I should have just ran away, but I was stubborn and thought I'd see what I could do.  Answer: not much.

I actually did take down 2 of them before running away with my 1 panicked soldier inside the Skyranger.  Looking up the ruleset, I see they are vulnerable to Plasma and Acid.  Yeah, that's no help.  Thing is, I thought I was prepared.  I had several heavy HE weapons and also alloy AP rounds for the Heavy Cannon.  I had high hopes the auto-cannon would be able to greatly contribute to their demise.  Never got a chance to fire it.  I even had a pile of High Explosives, most of which exploded on the corpses of soldiers who couldn't throw them far enough to even reach the Cyberdisc, let alone get out of the blast zone in time if they could have reached the terror unit.  Ran into 1 Sectoid the entire battle, so occupied I was with the Cyberdiscs.  I did get 2 soldiers mind controlled once everybody started panicking, though.  I learned that the AI will do melee attacks with unarmed units.  That was exciting.

Anyway, I don't see how Cyberdiscs can be successfully dealt with if you can't isolate them one at a time.  So, it looks like next time I run into them, I need to run away unless I'm packing serious plasma weapons.

Saw something weird with 1.6.  The Sniper Rifle now only has Snap Shot mode.  Seemed the same as before, just labelled differently.  I see you're putting them in your own ruleset so I don't know if this is intentional or not.  Earlier I had my first experience with Snakemen which was much more positive.  Actually defeated a Large Scout with no losses and only 1 wounded soldier.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 08:04:08 am by wsmithjr »

Offline LeBashar

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2014, 12:27:03 pm »
Quote
Sorry to be bearer of bad news, but just downloaded 1.6 from mod site and it's missing Sniper_AA_clip.gif from Resources.

I continously forgot some files, sorry :'(

Quote
On to next experience.  Got to April and ran into my first Sectoid terror.  It wasn't exactly pleasant.  I'm sensing a theme in that once again, my Skyranger started out surrounded by 5 Cyberdiscs.  I guess I should have just ran away, but I was stubborn and thought I'd see what I could do.  Answer: not much.

It's sad but in fact cyberdiscs are the aliens I have modified the less. I have add them some vulnerabilities where they haven't not. Began the game with 5 near the skyranger door is really bad luck.
The best weapon for hunt them in my mod is rocket launcher + small HEAT rockets. But is cyberdics are packed in front of the door, you can do nothing.

Demolition explosives are not suited against cyberdiscs (except maybe if you use some guy to attract their reaction fire before trying to send him the explosive).

Plasma and Acid can't helping so much because the time you get them, you probably don't face cyberdiscs anymore (for now).

I my game I have run into a sectoide terror also, with only 6 huy because all other wounded. one HWP alloy rocket, and one HWP cannon normal one (to fit the hole of wounded guy). There was 6 cyberdiscs but I have the chance they aren't near skyranger doors. Result : win without soldier lost but cannon hWP destroyed, rocket one finish with 15 HP, and all my mens badly wounded (and nearly all the map destroyed, no civilians saved ^^" two killed by my rockets... score nearly 0 )

Quote
I learned that the AI will do melee attacks with unarmed units.  That was exciting.

I never saw that, and it shouldn't be the result of my mod. What have you see exactly ?

Quote
Saw something weird with 1.6.  The Sniper Rifle now only has Snap Shot mode.


It's normal. The game don't allow reaction fire with other mode than "snap" so I have gave sniper rifle only a snap shot with same TUs thant previous aimed one. It can be little weird but this way the sniper rifle really act like it should.
The autocannon still don't have snap mode, it should not allowed to fire in reaction (too dangerous friendly fire).

Offline wsmithjr

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #68 on: August 28, 2014, 03:23:36 pm »
It's sad but in fact cyberdiscs are the aliens I have modified the less. I have add them some vulnerabilities where they haven't not.

Actually, when I was looking at the stats, I did notice they were pretty much the same as vanilla.  I should have been clear that I wasn't really commenting about your mod specifically, just the situation in general.  The difference is that even if they show up in vanilla at the end of January, I've got at least a few laser pistols to deal with them.  There's no weapons like that at this point.  That's not a complaint or praise of your mod, just an observation.  I think the thing that frustrates me most, and again, this has nothing to do with your mod, is that you can't tell how effective a weapon is.  "OK, I hit that cyberdisc with 3 Heavy Cannon shots and it's still standing ... is it almost dead or is it completely shrugging them off?"  I did have a few Heat rounds and I'm sure the 2 I was able to take down were because of those.  Actually finished one off with the Sniper Rifle but had previously hit it with a rocket and several heavy cannon rounds.  So yeah, the intent was not to disparrage your mod but to vent some frustration at the situation.  The game seems to like to put me in situations like that.  The lesson is that once I realized the situation I was in, I should have left right then.

Quote
Demolition explosives are not suited against cyberdiscs (except maybe if you use some guy to attract their reaction fire before trying to send him the explosive).

I recall seeing videos of vanilla where these Heavy Explosives were used early as Cyberdisc killers, but now I realize that your changes make them unusable for that purpose.

Quote
Plasma and Acid can't helping so much because the time you get them, you probably don't face cyberdiscs anymore (for now).

Exactly.  I guess one solution is to carry several rocket launchers on the Skyranger and regroup/reequip as necessary.

Quote
I my game I have run into a sectoide terror also, with only 6 huy because all other wounded. one HWP alloy rocket, and one HWP cannon normal one (to fit the hole of wounded guy). There was 6 cyberdiscs but I have the chance they aren't near skyranger doors. Result : win without soldier lost but cannon hWP destroyed, rocket one finish with 15 HP, and all my mens badly wounded (and nearly all the map destroyed, no civilians saved ^^" two killed by my rockets... score nearly 0 )

I didn't have any HWP.  I usually take 1 but I replaced it with 4 recruits thinking that might be better in this case.  Have to rethink that.  ???

Quote
I never saw that, and it shouldn't be the result of my mod. What have you see exactly ?

Sorry, again that was not meant to be a comment on your mod just on the OXC AI.  But, once things completely fell apart, my entire remaining squad panicked and dropped their weapons.  I had tried to loan them onto the Skyranger.  Then, next round, 2 of them were mind controlled.  One of them without a weapon ran over and whacked another one.  I've never seen that before so I think it's a new OXC AI thing, which can be good or bad depending on how you look at it.  :P
 
Quote
It's normal. The game don't allow reaction fire with other mode than "snap" so I have gave sniper rifle only a snap shot with same TUs thant previous aimed one. It can be little weird but this way the sniper rifle really act like it should.
The autocannon still don't have snap mode, it should not allowed to fire in reaction (too dangerous friendly fire).

Ah!  Figured it was intentional just didn't know why.  Never knew that about.  I like that even if it looks funny.

Anyway, sorry if you thought I was criticizing.  Just that misery loves company and all. :)

I'll keep plugging away at it.  I'm always interested to see other's take on the "ideal"  version of the game.  I'll let you know if something really bugs me.  :P

Offline LeBashar

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2014, 05:02:42 pm »
Quote
Then, next round, 2 of them were mind controlled.  One of them without a weapon ran over and whacked another one.  I've never seen that before so I think it's a new OXC AI thing, which can be good or bad depending on how you look at it. 

This seem already weird for me. maybe it's a bug, you should submit it ?

Quote
Anyway, sorry if you thought I was criticizing.  Just that misery loves company and all. :)

No problem, I am happy to receive commentary. :)

Quote
I recall seeing videos of vanilla where these Heavy Explosives were used early as Cyberdisc killers, but now I realize that your changes make them unusable for that purpose.

I never been a fan of this, even in vanilla's because if the cyberdiscs is fliyng... you're dead. Kill them with HEAT rocket seem more logical, but it is dangerous because of the high reaction/accuracy cyberdisc fire.
So I think use HWP in terror mission is a must, at least while you don't have :
- good soldier armor
- good advanced heavy weapon (laser or plasma)
HWP can sustain more fire and do good diversion. And in my mod, because I have slightly raise their weapon power, they can match aliens terrors weapons (but you have only one and them have plenty :p ). In early time, aliens use many shotgun-like plasma and pistols, deadly, but the alloy HWP is nearly invincible and could be save your team. After aliens begun to use disolvers and snipers/heavy plasma well... luck is your best friend :p
But in UFOs recovery mission, HWP can be less usefull than 4 soldiers, even rookies.

Quote
"OK, I hit that cyberdisc with 3 Heavy Cannon shots and it's still standing ... is it almost dead or is it completely shrugging them off?"

I have trying to do something about that by reduce the cost of mind probe (research cost) and make it prerequisite for nearly all aliens things. I have also reduce the TU usage for using the probe. But for me the ideal should be our soldiers being able to see if the target seem to be injured or remain intact. But there is no such thing in XCom.

Offline XCOMFan419

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2014, 11:06:44 pm »
I always take a HWP on missions with me. Especially with my own mod, TDS installed. The game provides much more options a Paramilitary force would, including Close-Support grenade launcher tanks and long range support Artillery tanks. With the included mods (minigun and gauss) I have changed them slightly so that they are not underpowered anymore, though the minigun tank still needs tweaking. Not only that, but I have added new tanks, such as Tank/Plasma Cannon and Hovertank/Scatter laser. I am planning, that once I get up a test ruleset, I am adding in my own Alloy Tanks (preferably blue) to the game, which will be a stopgap between Hovertanks and regular tanks.

This gives people much more options when staring at the equipment screen. Do they want to play it safe and have a few scouts and have an artillery battery sit at the edge of the map? Do they want to go in guns blazing with the Tank/Cannon? Do they want to rush technology and Elerium so they can produce the heavier tanks, and then ultimately the Hovertanks?

So why am I saying this? HWP have value outside of terror missions. If that HWP can take a snapshot at the sectoid with a plasma pistol when all your rookies have no more time units after trying to shoot the sectoid with no luck, would you do it or would you skip the turn and hope that the rookie survives?

Offline wsmithjr

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #71 on: August 29, 2014, 03:53:20 am »
So why am I saying this? HWP have value outside of terror missions. If that HWP can take a snapshot at the sectoid with a plasma pistol when all your rookies have no more time units after trying to shoot the sectoid with no luck, would you do it or would you skip the turn and hope that the rookie survives?

Funny thing is, I always take a HWP on normal missions.  Guess with a terror mission I was thinking I needed the extra soldiers instead, less concentration of force or something.  But to me, that's the point of the HWPs.  I see videos of people using them as primary weapons and I ask myself why when they can let their soldiers get experience or at least attempt to do so.  However, I try to keep the HWP as a last ditch offense.  However, in the case with a Sectoid with a Plasma Pistol, I'd probably just park the HWP in front of the soldiers to distract the Sectoid.  'Course that has backfired on me on occassion when the Sectoid pulls out an Alien Grenade and gets both the HWP and a soldier or two.   :-[

Offline LeBashar

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #72 on: August 29, 2014, 11:32:20 am »
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I always take a HWP on missions with me.

Well in fact I also take one HWP each time, but when I have powersuit and psilabo, usually I don't use them so much.

I think the usefullness of HWP depend on what difficulty mod you play, and if it's ironman or not.

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Guess with a terror mission I was thinking I needed the extra soldiers instead, less concentration of force or something.

I prefer having something armored to take reactions shot of aliens eventulally surrounding the skyrangers doors ;)

Offline Harald_Gray

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #73 on: August 29, 2014, 11:45:08 am »
As I've said elsewhere, people have different playstyles. I use HWPs mainly as scouts and bait, to find targets, to soak up reaction fire and alien-turn shots. Secondary role is backup heavy firepower/last chance shots. Yes, rocket tank costs half a million while a rookie forty grand but veteran soldiers have greater value and come late game, even combat ready rookies cost a lot (because of selection during hiring, selection during psionic training, new armor...). Furthermore, tanks heal instantly, so even if damaged, they're back in action as soon the Skyranger lands.

And I'd never attempt an early game terror without a HWP. And the reason is I fear psionics plus I've learned that terror missions can be so crowded you start with several aliens in front of the Skyranger. More guys is good but a HWP brings an entirely different set of abilities/stats.

Offline LeBashar

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Re: [BETA] Rebalance aliens
« Reply #74 on: August 29, 2014, 05:03:08 pm »
Quote
Furthermore, tanks heal instantly, so even if damaged, they're back in action as soon the Skyranger lands.

This is really a good point !


Theses discussion about HWP make me think to what really lack for the player : some lure to attract alien reaction fire, especially when you try to run out off the skyranger and are surrounded.

Some ideas :
- scout drone (must be either cheaper or resistant but not weak and costly)
- robot designed to seem be a soldier, unarmed, but heavily armored : just make it walk in alien line of sight and make it be the good pigeon. Buildable with same technologies than powered armors, could be a flying machine able to float in air like floatter, because it's easiest to do than legs, and less fragile.
- holographic device, could be inspired by the holodrone terrorist

I search a good idea for the begining of game, lthe scout drone is interesting for scouting, but not for lure and attract fire. Ideas ?