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Author Topic: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.03  (Read 81326 times)

Offline BBHood217

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2014, 11:42:03 am »
Yay new tanks!  The XAE apparently overrides the Improved Ground Tanks mod and I guess this new version is why.  I'll have to armor the tanks with alloys to get back the armored tanks that the other mod gave.

I found another minor goof.  All the laser weapons require at least one alien alloy... except the laser storm pistol, which needs no materials at all.

Edit: I don't think the hovertank armor is overpowered.  Heavy plasma can still hurt hovertanks a lot, and eventually the aliens use nothing but heavy plasma.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 11:44:45 am by BBHood217 »

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2014, 04:46:09 pm »
It's great that this thread is becoming active! Very motivating!

@BBHood217: The XAE overrides the improved ground tank if you load it afterwards. If you load the mods in the reverse order, you will have improved regular cannon/rocket/laser tanks. Of course Improved Ground Tanks won't work on the Gauss tank. I would expect that you don't need Improved Ground Tanks anymore though.

In the early game, aliens use a lot of plasma pistols (especially in the Alien Armoury Expanded, which I consider a required mod to go with this one), against which your regular tank should hold up. Then the Alloy Hull is pretty quick to access to give you endgame quality defences on the ground tank. The early boost to tank armours, before the aliens take out their big weapons is what worries me, not their endgame survivability. But I never use tanks (I'd rather take 4 soldiers) so I'm not sure.. and I don't know how to make tanks attractive in a skyranger when space is already limited, except making them tough enough that they save lives. I certainly don't want to make them even better at killing aliens. We will see!

Thanks for the catch, once again!

@HelmetHair:
I was originally not a fan of swords either. I remember rolling my eyes when I first saw an alloy sword. But I think it is a nice component for those who want more of a space fantasy than sci-fi (And I really like Hobbes' Melee oriented Japanese team). Like everything in the XAE, it will be its own expansion module so you can leave it out without losing anything else. There will be no chainsword though, that'd be overpowered ;)

Melee weapons also will answer a need in the later game for better breaching weapons. In the early game, the shotgun and "Storm Pistols" are wonderful breaching weapons: Short range, but that's fine, multiple shots so they are more dependable (the larger the sample size, the closer you should be to the average, ie you always hit a few times) and decent damage. But in the late game, against gazers/mutons/ethereals, the weapons I intended as breaching weapons just don't work anymore because of the aliens' armour. The Plasma Caster (from the Alien Armoury Expanded) is the shotgun equivalent/breacher weapon for endgame and it barely measures up against Ethereals against mutons and gazers it tells them you're there so they can murder you. I'd rather people breach UFOs with swords than with Heavy Plasmas... (Indeed, in the XAE Hard Mode, Heavy Plasmas won't be useful at all for breaching).

The idea of rotating the shoulder slots is a good one. I might actually do that for a 3 vertical slots on the right shoulder. For pistols, there's already 2 vertical slots in the belt so that should be enough.

Going back to the AI and doing things for aliens, you just confirmed that converting alien weaponry for human use is worth pursuing. I had the idea yesterday of using the plasma rifle look to make a new line of human plasma weapons, keeping the alien plasma weapons only useable by aliens. Then I can take away the accuracy concerns for aliens since they're too stupid to consider it, without overly buffing XCom. That'll be part of XAE Hard Mode for sure.

There's already graphics available thanks to Chiko:



Your infection gun will be part of "Starspawn: Horror from Above" whenever I get to it, radius 1 small launcher ammo that turns you into a zombie (and then a chryssalid). Will be wonderful on terror missions. Thanks to you, everyone can make zombies out of civilians to go with their cyberdiscs/sectopods! ;)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 06:01:23 pm by Arthanor »

Offline HelmetHair

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2014, 07:46:02 pm »
I asked Warboy about the code for some insights into the AI on how they do what they do....

Units will decide to use an aimed shot if they have the time units and the distance is greater than 12 tiles.
If they have TUs for aimed, aimed it is if not Snap.

I can see some room for some alterations that could end in some rather Malcious AI tactics...

just scratching the surface... my syntax SUCKS so even if I can come up with a few rat bastard tricks... I'm not sure if it'll fly  :P

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2014, 07:50:23 pm »
Ah, well, that's actually better than I thought.. Even though.. penalties for snap shots kick in at 15 tiles default, so taking an aimed shot from 12 to 14 is actually a bad decision! (you usually get more damage/TU spend with snap shots, even taking into account the lower base accuracy. Before you hit the dropoff, of course). Anyhow, that's good to know! I know at some point, when (very) close to a target, they use autoshots too, but I'm not sure what the distance is.

Anyhow, that's not something I want to touch in the XCom Armoury Expanded (which is focused on XCom weapons), it's more something for my future alien mod.

Offline Hadan

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2014, 07:52:52 pm »
Going back to the AI and doing things for aliens, you just confirmed that converting alien weaponry for human use is worth pursuing. I had the idea yesterday of using the plasma rifle look to make a new line of human plasma weapons, keeping the alien plasma weapons only useable by aliens. Then I can take away the accuracy concerns for aliens since they're too stupid to consider it, without overly buffing XCom. That'll be part of XAE Hard Mode for sure.
If I may chip in my 2 dents:
Please dont do this  :-\ (or at least make it optional).
All the other Weapon-Conversions do this and i really dont like it, imho it just adds a unnecessary level of micromanagement.

best regards
Hadan

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2014, 08:34:19 pm »
Hi Hadan,

Thanks for the feedback. I am aware that it is not a new idea, but I am coming to think that it is "necessary" to attain the experience that I am personally looking for.

However, like everything else in the XCom Armoury Expanded, it will be in its own Expansion Module, completely independent of all the other mods and not required for anything else to work. It will be an option for people who want to use it, not a requirement.

I fully understand that we each have our preferences and that some of what I do may not work for some people. That's why everything is its own module, even though it's a pain in the neck to make everything modular. I assure you that you will not have to use it if you don't like it and that you will still be able to enjoy everything else that is provided in the XCom Armoury Expanded.

Although I play with all the XAE mods enabled and that's what I like, you are in no way required to do so for things to work. Everyone can design their own experience. I consider the customizable modular nature of the XAE to be its defining property and its greatest strength.

I hope you can find the combination of modules that make the game what you want it to be. If you find that something is missing, let me know. If there is something you don't want, everything else should always work without it.

(Man, that sounds like a corporate answer, doesn't it? I don't know what to change though.. and I really mean it!)

Offline Hadan

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2014, 11:27:00 am »
(Man, that sounds like a corporate answer, doesn't it? I don't know what to change though.. and I really mean it!)
It does, a little  :D
I didnt realise everything is optional, i was waiting for 1.0 to test your mod.
I am sure i will find a combination that suits me.

Thanks for the extensive answer  :)

Offline BBHood217

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2014, 04:37:52 pm »
Human plasma weapons?  You mean like in Xenonauts?  There, you research the various alien guns (and I think a few UFO components) to get laser, then plasma, and finally mag weapons.  You never research the alien guns to use them; in fact, you can actually use them right away but with a heavy accuracy penalty (since they're for aliens, not humans).

Anyway, I'm all for unusable alien weapons and human plasma weapons.  But then... what happens when you mind control an alien?  Will they actually be able to shoot their guns when you're controlling them?

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2014, 04:45:05 pm »
Anyway, I'm all for unusable alien weapons and human plasma weapons.

Yeah, because alien weapons require opposable thumbs, which humans clearly don't have. :P

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2014, 04:56:51 pm »
I wouldn't change anything but the plasma weapons. All the lasers/gauss would be the same.

For plasma weapons, I would make it so that aliens don't lose much from the UFOExtender Accuracy (thinking of a dropoff value of 1 and forgiving auto and snap ranges, no minimum range). Once you research the plasma weapons, you would get access to a manufacturing process that converts alien plasma weapons (which you can't use) into human plasma weapons.

The human versions may have different accuracy and TU costs, but most importantly will have different minimum, snap shot and auto shot ranges. I don't like the idea of storming UFOs with a heavy plasma. That thing is big and bulky and should be a support weapon, not a main weapon.

Tweaking the stats of the current heavy plasma would nerf the aliens (especially giving it a minimum range) since they are "stuck" with which weapon they use, unlike the player who would always use the right weapon for the job. So the solution is to differentiate the weapon the aliens use (and leave it mostly untouched) while tweaking the weapon the humans will use to obtain the right behaviour.

The difference can be handwaved by saying that the aliens have access to psi/fancy tech that allows them to handle big guns in close quarters or something. I don't like the idea that XCom can come to use, understand and manufacture alien tech within a year, to a point where it is as good as (and in the case of armours, much better than) alien tech for aliens, so it is a step towards solving that. Of course, that "XCom nerf" will be a part of the hard mode mod (or series of mod?) and be entirely optional.

@Solarius: Monkeys have thumbs too, do you see them using every tool we have? :P There are plenty of ways to explain that humans can't use the aliens weapons immediately. But the main reason to do it is not from a story perspective as I agree with you that on the basic level, nothing should prevent us from using those weapons.

It's from a technical point of view of how to create the experience I am looking for for XCom while not nerfing aliens. Say I give minRange: 10 to Heavy Plasmas because I want them to suck in close quarters (they're big, bulky and those are not characteristics of breaching weapons). Then the player will give his squad a few for heavy support and use different weapons for close quarters, all is well. Meanwhile, the aliens will be stuck with it (unless I redefine all of their inventory, I guess) and more importantly: they will have no idea how to use it properly because the AI doesn't understand minRange and accuracy.

Offline Ascadix

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2014, 06:24:25 pm »
Hello alien hunters :-)

This mod make me drop some little mini-mod i was working on since some times ... but i like it.

So, my little contribution : an advanced shotgun and a new shotgun ammo for XAE.

Based on Warboy's shotgun, just a ruleset, no need for additional graphics, it use Warboy's graphics that are present but unused in XAE 1.01.

- Reinforced Shotgun : same stats as original by Warboy.
-> auto-shot : x3

- Shotgun Dragon's Kiss ammo : A rain of molten metal, not to be used for a barbecue, but potentially effective response to some aliens. Can only be fired with reinforced shotgun since the standard shotgun can't deal with such a high temperature.
-> type 2 (incendiary) damages, so useless against snakeman, but better against some of other aliens.


Code: [Select]
items:
# ===============================================
# ===== RENEWED WEAPONS=====================
# ===============================================
#ADV_SHOTGUN
  - type: STR_ADV_SHOTGUN
    size: 0.2
    costSell: 4000
    weight: 5
    bigSprite: 608
    floorSprite: 608
    handSprite: 608
    bulletSprite: 2
    fireSound: 56
    compatibleAmmo:
      - STR_SHOTGUN_SHELLS
      - STR_SHOTGUN_AA_AMMO
      - STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS
    accuracySnap: 70
    accuracyAuto: 60
    accuracyAimed: 80
    tuSnap: 30
    tuAuto: 40
    tuAimed: 45
    battleType: 1
    twoHanded: true
    invWidth: 1
    invHeight: 3
    listOrder: 2008
    maxRange: 13
    aimRange: 11
    snapRange: 8
    autoRange: 6
    dropoff: 5
    requires:
      - STR_ADV_SHOTGUN
  - type: STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS
    requires:
      - STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS
    size: 0.1
    costSell: 800
    weight: 3
    bigSprite: 609
    floorSprite: 609
    hitSound: 22
    hitAnimation: 36
    power: 30
    damageType: 2
    clipSize: 8
    battleType: 2
    blastRadius: 0
    listOrder: 2009
    shotgunPellets: 6
# ===============================================
# ================= RESEARCH ====================
# ===============================================
research:
#ADV_SHOTGUN
  - name: STR_ADV_SHOTGUN
    cost: 800
    points: 10
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALIEN_ALLOYS
      - STR_ALIEN_WEAPONRY
    listOrder: 901
#SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS_AMMO
  - name: STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS
    cost: 500
    points: 10
    dependencies:
      - STR_ADV_SHOTGUN
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
    listOrder: 903
# ===============================================
# =============== MANUFACTURE ===================
# ===============================================
manufacture:
#ADV_SHOTGUN
  - name: STR_ADV_SHOTGUN
    category: STR_WEAPON
    requires:
      - STR_ADV_SHOTGUN
    space: 4
    time: 820
    cost: 18000
    requiredItems:
      STR_ALIEN_ALLOYS: 1
    listOrder: 811
#SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS_AMMO
  - name: STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS_BATCH
    category: STR_AMMUNITION
    requires:
      - STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS
    space: 2
    time: 40
    cost: 400
    producedItems:
      STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS: 4
    listOrder: 812
# ===============================================
# ================= UFOPAEDIA ===================
# ===============================================
ufopaedia:
#ADV_SHOTGUN
  - id: STR_ADV_SHOTGUN
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_WEAPONS_AND_EQUIPMENT
    text: STR_ADV_SHOTGUN_UFOPEDIA
    listOrder: 2106
    requires:
      - STR_ADV_SHOTGUN
#SHOTGUN_AADART_AMMO
  - id: STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE
    requires:
      - STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS
# ===============================================
# ============= EXTRA SPRITES ===================
# ===============================================
extraSprites:
  - type: BIGOBS.PCK
    files:
      608: Resources/XCom_Armoury_Expanded/Shotgun/ReinforcedShotgun.gif
      609: Resources/XCom_Armoury_Expanded/Shotgun/EleriumShotgunAmmo.gif
  - type: FLOOROB.PCK
    files:
      608: Resources/XCom_Armoury_Expanded/Shotgun/ReinforcedShotgunF.gif
      609: Resources/XCom_Armoury_Expanded/Shotgun/EleriumShotgunAmmoF.gif
  - type: HANDOB.PCK
    files:
      608: Resources/XCom_Armoury_Expanded/Shotgun/ReinforcedShotgunH.gif
    width: 128
    height: 80
    subX: 32
    subY: 40
# ===============================================
# ================== SOUNDS =====================
# ===============================================
extraSounds:
  - type: BATTLE.CAT
    files:
      55: Resources/XCom_Armoury_Expanded/Shotgun/Fire.wav
      56: Resources/XCom_Armoury_Expanded/Shotgun/Fire2.wav
# ===============================================
# =================== STRINGS ===================
# ===============================================
extraStrings:
  - type: en-US
    strings:
      STR_ADV_SHOTGUN: Reinforced Shotgun
      STR_SHOTGUN_SHELLS: Shotgun Shells
      STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS: Shotgun Dragon's Kiss
      STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS_BATCH: Shotgun Dragon's Kiss (x4)
      STR_ADV_SHOTGUN_UFOPEDIA: Utilizing the properties of Alien Alloys, this semi-automatic shotgun features a stronger barrel compared to the conventional counterpart.{NEWLINE}Its resistance allows the use of high-calorie ammo ("Dragon's Kiss").
  - type: en-GB
    strings:
      STR_ADV_SHOTGUN: Reinforced Shotgun
      STR_SHOTGUN_SHELLS: Shotgun Shells
      STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS: Shotgun Dragon's Kiss
      STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS_BATCH: Shotgun Dragon's Kiss (x4)
      STR_ADV_SHOTGUN_UFOPEDIA: Utilizing the properties of Alien Alloys, this semi-automatic shotgun features a stronger barrel compared to the conventional counterpart.{NEWLINE}Its resistance allows the use of high-calorie ammo ("Dragon's Kiss").
  - type: fr
    strings:
      STR_SHOTGUN: Fusil à Pompe
      STR_ADV_SHOTGUN: Fusil à Pompe Renforcé
      STR_SHOTGUN_SHELLS: Cartouches Fusil à pompe
      STR_SHOTGUN_AA_AMMO: Munitions AET Fusil à Pompe
      STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS: Bisou du Dragon (Mun. F.Pompe)
      STR_SHOTGUN_DRAGONSHELLS_BATCH: Bisou du Dragon (x4)
      STR_SHOTGUN_UFOPEDIA: Fusil à pompe tactique standard calibre 12. Délivre une puissance de feu dévastatrice à courte portée, mais la dispersion des projectiles et leur faible force de pémétration limite son efficacité face à des cibles éloignées ou fortement blindées.
      STR_ADV_SHOTGUN_UFOPEDIA: Tirant parti des propriétés des alliages E.T., ce fusil à pompe semi-automatique dispose d'un canon plus résistant que le modéle standard.{NEWLINE}Sa résistance permet l'usage de munitions hyper-caloriques ("bisou du dragon").
 


NB: extrastring contain also "fr" string for the standard shotgun that are missing in XAE.


edit: oops ... not the good .rul, uploaded an old version -> corrected.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 12:48:06 am by Ascadix »

Offline XCOMFan419

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2014, 06:29:25 pm »
The only way I see the Aliens having their weapons not being usable by humans is something like a DNA lock or an ID lock which allows only that alien who has been assigned that weapon to use it. Or the aliens have locked Human DNA/ID out of their weapons and for humans to use them, they must disable the lock or something.

Offline NoelBuddy

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2014, 06:49:11 pm »
Another explanation for alien weapons being unusable, at least at first, is they may be triggered by mental command with no mechanical trigger.  Even the Psi-weak aliens can use something programed to respond directly to their neural impulses, but it would be difficult for humans to figure out the right "shoot" command to think.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2014, 07:47:50 pm »
@Ascadix: Thanks for the ruleset. I think I have the graphics for the improved shotgun somewhere. The reason I did not include it in the XAE along with the regular shotgun is that I find it weird to have an improved version of shotguns but not of any of the other conventional weapons. If we make better shotguns, surely there should be better rifles, better autocannons, better...

It also begs the question: Do we really need an extra tier of weaponry beyond conventional -> alloy ammo -> laser/gauss -> elerium laser/depleted elerium gauss -> plasma. I am all for delaying tech, but as of now I find little space to add a new tier of alloy guns with alloy ammo.

That's also why I don't have explosive elerium based conventional ammo. I have, however, completed a new expansion module for elerium explosives since explosives did not have multiple tiers and I pretty much designed it already because of the discussion with Hobbes in another thread.

All that being said, I will incorporate your work into an expansion module, since I believe in the mod offering options. If you do further work on this idea, let me know! Despite my reserves, I am very much interested. The later XCom gets laser/gauss/plasma, the happier I am. (I prefer slower tech gains as they are more realistic).

======== Regarding plasma weapons splitting =======
There are lots of possible ways to explain alien weapons being useable only by aliens, DNA based locks and psi-links being the two best candidates.

You can even extend the psi-link one into triggering a self-sabotaging mechanism when its user loses consciousness. You still retrieve a pretty looking alien gun that's worth money but it doesn't go pew-pew anymore. Then XCom engineer take whatever parts still works, rig something together to make the gun shoot again and you end up with a subpar version of the weapon. That, and XCom troopers don't like guns that shoot when you think "pew-pew", they prefer triggers which are an incredibly primitive idea for the aliens. I think that sounds pretty good.

Anyhow, the handwaving is far from my main concern with this idea (which is not gonna happen soon any ways). I am considering it for the technical side of being able to rebalance endgame weapons for both aliens and XCom. It particularly annoys me that as soon as XCom has heavy plasmas, everyone carries one, whereas the aliens are still stupid enough to carry pistols and rifles, especially with the Alien Armoury Expanded. Not that I consider that a flaw of the AAE, I very much like it for that reason, in fact. We just need the same to be true for XCom.

Edit: And because I kept thinking about this:
Yeah, because alien weapons require opposable thumbs, which humans clearly don't have. :P
Doesn't it just require a trigger finger? That's even less special! I want to give a heavy plasma to some raccoon now! :P

Like this guy, he already looks like he could be an XCom operative! Just need to recolor the orange to grey and the armour to a suitably purplish blue for alien alloys.


All joking aside, I'd love to move on from the "what plasma for humans and how?" questions ;) This is some ways away.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 08:34:04 pm by Arthanor »

Offline Ascadix

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.01 !!
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2014, 08:51:30 pm »
Hi,

For the graphics ... they are in the last XAE release ZIP :-)

For the reinforced shotgun, i didn't think about a full new tier, just as a little upgrade to a very old/basic weapon since the std shotgun is a lot less sophisticated than the rifle or the auto/heavy canon.

I have seen your work on the DE-Gauss, so i have not included Warboy's original E115 shotgun ammo but my concept of a simple human-tech incendiary ammo for the shotgun.

I ask myself 2 questions about those wepons:
- Maybe it would be good to make the dragon's kiss useable with the std shotgun, so the only improvement of the "aloy shotgun" would be the auto-shot feature ?
- And decrease prerequisites for reinforcedshotgun to just Aloys and no alien tech since it's jsute a teran concept with better raw material. ?