Author Topic: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom  (Read 24737 times)

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2014, 12:23:01 pm »
The balance between the weapons seems to well-thought, although the Marksman Rifle could suffer from the bad case of not-having-2-aimed-shots like the assault rifle has, while also missing the massive accuracy/power advantage the Sniper Rifle has.

However, the general balance is more disputable. The options seems to be heavily weighed towards automatic fire; snapshot is basically only useful in defense (except for the Marksman rifle, noted - very high Snap range + triple fire rate compared to Aimed), while in attack, the aimed shot generally takes over only at ranges 30+, while the majority of gunfights seem to take place at 20-25 range (and the range can be easily shortened by walking a few tiles - one automatic burst takes at worst 35% TU, which leaves the soldier with 30+ TU to maneuver). The high autofire rates mean than even with 1/3 accuracy, it grants much higher kill probability than an aimed shot (unless at extreme ranges, ofc).

Another one is the shotgun. It seems pretty useless except at point-blank ranges (1-2 tiles), where again, autofire (even from an assault rifle) would be able to pump equal or higher damage into the enemy, as essentially every bullet hits. Have you taken into consideration that every consecutive shotgun pellet suffers a stacking 5% accuracy penalty? Having heavily used shotguns (7 pellets, 18 damage, accuracy profile essentially very similar to yours), I've found them very unreliable, as very rarely more than 1-2 pellets hit, even at intended range of up to 10 tiles; with worse stats, and very hard competition from automatic weapons, your shotgun is bound to fare even worse.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 12:26:37 pm by Dioxine »

Offline pkrcel

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2014, 12:44:37 pm »
I'll hijack Dioxine analysis overlapping with my (limited, for now) game experience.

The balance between the weapons seems to well-thought, although the Marksman Rifle could suffer from the bad case of not-having-2-aimed-shots like the assault rifle has, while also missing the massive accuracy/power advantage the Sniper Rifle has.

It is indeed a useful weapon in the hands of a competent marksman, the very efficient snapshot make it somewhat badass thou not forcing the squaddie to a vantage point to snipe from. In my experience with the 1.01 version of Equal Terms it does not compete with either the assault rifle nor the sniper one, and is (to me) a VERY nice complement. Squaddie in the ACC 60s with normal REACT are deifnitely benefitting from the weapon, and add to squad tactics.

I think it's fair to have only one chance to fire an aimed shot, since in my trials it allowed for a very nice combo of limited mobility+good shot.


However, the general balance is more disputable. The options seems to be heavily weighed towards automatic fire; snapshot is basically only useful in defense (except for the Marksman rifle, noted - very high Snap range + triple fire rate compared to Aimed), while in attack, the aimed shot generally takes over only at ranges 30+, while the majority of gunfights seem to take place at 20-25 range (and the range can be easily shortened by walking a few tiles - one automatic burst takes at worst 35% TU, which leaves the soldier with 30+ TU to maneuver). The high autofire rates mean than even with 1/3 accuracy, it grants much higher kill probability than an aimed shot (unless at extreme ranges, ofc).

The two autofire with goood accuracy are definitely a killer, SAW is an excellent weapon and with ACC in the 60s (nor even 70s) is just like a handy cannon.


Another one is the shotgun. It seems pretty useless except at point-blank ranges (1-2 tiles), where again, autofire (even from an assault rifle) would be able to pump equal or higher damage into the enemy, as essentially every bullet hits. Have you taken into consideration that every consecutive shotgun pellet suffers a stacking 5% accuracy penalty? Having heavily used shotguns (7 pellets, 18 damage, accuracy profile essentially very similar to yours), I've found them very unreliable, as very rarely more than 1-2 pellets hit, even at intended range of up to 10 tiles; with worse stats, and very hard competition from automatic weapons, your shotgun is bound to fare even worse.

I haven't really made may way yet in the shotgun analysis, since (maybe Dioxine is right then) usually other weapons clear the field for breachers quite efficiently.
Also it's difficult in OpenXCOM to find a patch od close by aliens even in UFOs.


Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2014, 02:28:14 pm »
The balance between the weapons seems to well-thought, although the Marksman Rifle could suffer from the bad case of not-having-2-aimed-shots like the assault rifle has, while also missing the massive accuracy/power advantage the Sniper Rifle has.

That's absolutely what I was aiming for. The DMR historically always has been known as the ugly child of the squad.

Quote
However, the general balance is more disputable. The options seems to be heavily weighed towards automatic fire; snapshot is basically only useful in defense (except for the Marksman rifle, noted - very high Snap range + triple fire rate compared to Aimed), while in attack, the aimed shot generally takes over only at ranges 30+, while the majority of gunfights seem to take place at 20-25 range (and the range can be easily shortened by walking a few tiles - one automatic burst takes at worst 35% TU, which leaves the soldier with 30+ TU to maneuver). The high autofire rates mean than even with 1/3 accuracy, it grants much higher kill probability than an aimed shot (unless at extreme ranges, ofc).

I'm hoping that with the mod for recoil and cone-of-fire, shots past the first two get dicey.  But what would you suggest? Should I make snapshot more useful?

BTW: loving the analysis.

Quote
Another one is the shotgun. It seems pretty useless except at point-blank ranges (1-2 tiles), where again, autofire (even from an assault rifle) would be able to pump equal or higher damage into the enemy, as essentially every bullet hits. Have you taken into consideration that every consecutive shotgun pellet suffers a stacking 5% accuracy penalty? Having heavily used shotguns (7 pellets, 18 damage, accuracy profile essentially very similar to yours), I've found them very unreliable, as very rarely more than 1-2 pellets hit, even at intended range of up to 10 tiles; with worse stats, and very hard competition from automatic weapons, your shotgun is bound to fare even worse.

Yeah, I'm not happy with the shotgun at all, which is why I'm going to be adjusting cone of fire for it in the code.  Generate an initial shot vector and then the pellets veer off of that to a minor amount.

Thanks guys for the analysis. This includes you pkrcel.

Offline pkrcel

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2014, 03:03:51 pm »
Thanks king, I'm only reporting play experience thou..hope it helps.

That's absolutely what I was aiming for. The DMR historically always has been known as the ugly child of the squad.

That's also because the designated marksman could (and indeed mostly was)  not a competent marksman up and above the other squaddies....historically.

In Xcom we ought to have many 45-55 ACC guys and a couple every now and then 60+ ACC, in my squad setup the designated marskman is the "non-capital-m statstring guy", and usually puts that rifle to unwieldy good use just with the snapshots, this proves to be mobile enuff to be in the squad instead than on a vantage spot (though luck during nighttime terror mission :P ).

I simply love the implementation, keep up the good work.

I'm hoping that with the mod for recoil and cone-of-fire, shots past the first two get dicey.  But what would you suggest? Should I make snapshot more useful?

Actually, I think the game mechanics should remain simple enuff, the implied problem with recoil is embedded in the lower accuracy in Xcom, otherwsie one should have the same accuracy which decreases over shots....this also means that one should laso be able to decide how long to pull the trigger: far too complex, IMO.





Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2014, 06:26:33 pm »

Actually, I think the game mechanics should remain simple enuff, the implied problem with recoil is embedded in the lower accuracy in Xcom, otherwsie one should have the same accuracy which decreases over shots....this also means that one should laso be able to decide how long to pull the trigger: far too complex, IMO.

Well the odd thing is that as you move up in weapon technology, the weapons get more accurate, massively.  I've removed that aspect. All weapons have their strengths now, it's not just a linear progression in effectiveness.

Although, I realize I will need to change the creatures to have 15% better creature accuracy (creature accuracy * weapons accuracy)  to make up for the accuracy loss from the inherently overly accurate plasma weapons.

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2014, 06:28:22 pm »
Version 1.012 is out.

Fixes a crash bug with a corpse, grenade weight inconsistences.

This should be the last hotfix before version 2.0 comes out and this version effectively becomes Equal Terms - Wolfram Lance

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2014, 10:38:22 pm »
For me this whole talk about cones of fire and recoil is just needless complexity. Abstract the recoil away and reduce the accuracy/accurate range/both appropriately (or whatever is needed to find the proper balance); accurate automatic fire is pretty much an oxymoron unless you fire stationary weapons (or dedicated SMGs at short range), and it is usually used to suppress the enemy, not to actually hit anyone (which is, however, impossible to simulate here... and the function of suppresive fire is sort of taken by reaction snapshots... hence, why not make snapshots faster, if the weapon is capable of automatic fire?).

It doesn't really matter if the first bullet or the last hits - what matters is the overall, average kill chance.

Same with shotgun - simply increase accuracy until desirable effect is reached (not even mentioning that the real pattern of shotgun pellets is a veeeery elongated cone, unless you're firing sawed-off or somesuch). Since it doesn't fire solid slugs, you don't have to care about balancing the weapon with both types of munitions in mind.

In any case though, I find this project very ambitious and well-thought.

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2014, 03:15:57 am »
For me this whole talk about cones of fire and recoil is just needless complexity. Abstract the recoil away and reduce the accuracy/accurate range/both appropriately (or whatever is needed to find the proper balance); accurate automatic fire is pretty much an oxymoron unless you fire stationary weapons (or dedicated SMGs at short range), and it is usually used to suppress the enemy, not to actually hit anyone (which is, however, impossible to simulate here... and the function of suppresive fire is sort of taken by reaction snapshots... hence, why not make snapshots faster, if the weapon is capable of automatic fire?).

It doesn't really matter if the first bullet or the last hits - what matters is the overall, average kill chance.

I like the idea of recoil, because (without support/stationary weapons with tracers) in a 3-8 shot string, your later shots generally are less accurate than the first ones.  But honestly, like you said, taken as a group, just having it as a base number just works fine.  It currently hasn't been balanced for actually having a recoil stat that reduces the accuracy of later shots in an autofire string.

Quote
Same with shotgun - simply increase accuracy until desirable effect is reached (not even mentioning that the real pattern of shotgun pellets is a veeeery elongated cone, unless you're firing sawed-off or somesuch). Since it doesn't fire solid slugs, you don't have to care about balancing the weapon with both types of munitions in mind.

That's kinda the problem, from what I've seen of the patterning of the shotgun currently, it draws separate lines of shots for each pellet, which really it should work along the lines of 'determine main line' like the standard shot then vary the pellets off that.

I'll need to investigate further.

Quote
In any case though, I find this project very ambitious and well-thought.

Much of this is standing on the shoulders of giants, like Warboy and so on.. It's also based on work I've been slowly tweaking for 14 years now. I do appreciate the kind words though.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 06:40:49 pm by KingMob4313 »

Offline pkrcel

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2014, 06:36:15 pm »



Much of this is standing on the shoulders of giants, like Warboy and so on.. It's also based on work I've been slowly tweaking for 14 years now. I do appreciate the kind words though.

And in fact you're fighting against the fine details.... shows quality.


Anyway I agree on the plasma sheer awesomeness in accuracy & power....that's too easily accessible.

I'll eagerly wait for Equal Terms 2.0

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2014, 03:16:38 am »
A preview of Coherency

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2014, 11:31:37 am »
Shouldn't the pistol be flipped vertically?

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2014, 02:32:44 pm »
Shouldn't the pistol be flipped vertically?

I'm keeping them oriented like the gunpowder pistol in the original game.

Offline pkrcel

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2014, 03:31:17 pm »
Love gfx and descriptions.....by the way I'll just reiterate that I love the descriptions as a whole, also for wolfram....I like the sense of depth those give.


By the way, seriously a laser pistol that featherllight?

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2014, 11:08:37 pm »
I'm keeping them oriented like the gunpowder pistol in the original game.

I guess I was seeing things. :P

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [Weapon][Armor]Equal Terms Mod v1.0 for OpenXcom
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2014, 12:45:56 am »
I guess I was seeing things. :P

Actually, you are right, the laser pistol and plasma pistol are oriented as the other weapons.  But I decided to keep the sidearms pointing the other way.  Not sure why.