Expanded U_BASE

[Solarius Scorch]

Do you have already integrate Civillian's mod too ?

https://www.openxcom.com/mod/addon-terrains-mapblocks

On Hobbes's web site (Area51) there are two packs on  Alien base maps too

It will be beautifull if any alien base attack missions will be different from the previous !!! 

If it helps, I'm integrating them all in the Final Mod Pack

[yrizoud]

The map quality of the vanilla game speaks for itself

I find the vanilla map blocks uneven. UBASE is the scenery which has the most symmetric blocs, and I find these ones the least interesting to assault. My critic on luke's blocks (judging by the screenshots only) is that by staying extremely faithful to the pattern of 'large room with 1x1 obstacles', they emphasize the weak points, and when he said "I am going to create more", I wanted to express that I hope he doesn't focus exclusively on these. (rather than, say, designs like ubase_00 with its corridor windows, 02 with its tower, 08 with its "observation post")

Luke has a very fair point here: you either design mods aiming for the 99% or you can do as you want but your mod will only be played by a few players.

I'm glad Dioxine didn't have this mindset and created Piratez anyway, before knowing if his idea would be popular or not.

Because honestly, there isn't much room for innovation regarding map design. Some things work regarding design, others don't and if you look at all of the original maps you get a fair idea of what works better

Indeed, I can see the ubase blocks are very few. No stairs makes it mandatory to use lifts, and these are always very dangerous to navigate.
Still, even keeping in line with the architecture style, I'm sure we can make very interesting architecture spots.

assuming that you know better than the original developers is quite a bold statement. What you can innovate is regarding graphics and the number of maps you can use.

Designers did a good job, but they had very limited time to test and balance the game before shipping it. There are now thousands of players who have hundreds of hours playing the game and a good feeling for what was successful and what was not. And any one of them can now try the map editor and try invent something (that he may be thinking for years). I'm optimistic that at least one of them can make a map that plays better than, say, the cruise liner of TFTD.

[Hobbes]

On Hobbes's web site (Area51) there are two packs on  Alien base maps too

If you're talking about Hive, it was not designed to replace the Alien Base but the Terror Site, plus I honestly feel that the terrain isn't that good. If you mean the terrains on the Map Depot keep in mind that none of them have .RMP files and they were all designed for multiplayer.

I'm glad Dioxine didn't have this mindset and created Piratez anyway, before knowing if his idea would be popular or not.

Dioxine he has done a great work with that mod but that's the perfect example of a mod that I personally might try it once but won't bother with it afterwards - I'm here to play X-COM, if I want to play a game with pirates I'll play Sid Meier's Pirates.

[luke83]

I find the vanilla map blocks uneven. UBASE is the scenery which has the most symmetric blocs, and I find these ones the least interesting to assault. My critic on luke's blocks (judging by the screenshots only) is that by staying extremely faithful to the pattern of 'large room with 1x1 obstacles', they emphasize the weak points, and when he said "I am going to create more", I wanted to express that I hope he doesn't focus exclusively on these. (rather than, say, designs like ubase_00 with its corridor windows, 02 with its tower, 08 with its "observation post")I'm glad Dioxine didn't have this mindset and created Piratez anyway, before knowing if his idea would be popular or not.Indeed, I can see the ubase blocks are very few. No stairs makes it mandatory to use lifts, and these are always very dangerous to navigate.
Still, even keeping in line with the architecture style, I'm sure we can make very interesting architecture spots.Designers did a good job, but they had very limited time to test and balance the game before shipping it. There are now thousands of players who have hundreds of hours playing the game and a good feeling for what was successful and what was not. And any one of them can now try the map editor and try invent something (that he may be thinking for years). I'm optimistic that at least one of them can make a map that plays better than, say, the cruise liner of TFTD.

So much reading   Yrizoud, build your maps and share with the community, if people like them great, if they dont, at least you have the experience of map building under our belt. Just remember, it is not possible to please everyone so just set your goals and go with it
 At this point, i am sticking with the Vanilla style of maps as to me, this will be embraced by the majority of the community, however i do look forward to personally trialing your maps.

[yrizoud]

if people like them great, if they dont, at least you have the experience of map building under our belt.

Thanks for understanding! It's a win-win. Some experiments are failures, but all give hindsight for better maps for everybody.
Doom has had tens of thousands of maps over the years. A lot are trash, but it takes a lot of trash to build experience.

[davide]

If you're talking about Hive, it was not designed to replace the Alien Base but the Terror Site, plus I honestly feel that the terrain isn't that good. If you mean the terrains on the Map Depot keep in mind that none of them have .RMP files and they were all designed for multiplayer.

I refer to those:





from this link

https://area51.xcomufo.com/depot2.htm

Sorry I do not know is those maps are named "hive set"

If these maps could not be used as Alien base set, perhaps them could be use for new mission type
such as "Alien Raid" 

[Hobbes]

Sorry I do not know is those maps are named "hive set"

If these maps could not be used as Alien base set, perhaps them could be use for new mission type
such as "Alien Raid" 

That's not Hive. You have the same problem with the new maps, whether you use them for Alien Base or a new mission - since they were designed for multiplayer there are no RMP files so you'll have to create those from scratch.

[davide]

I know but I am too much thing to do a very few free time to modding.

I am working on the automatic conversion of .PCK of TFTD
but I have an issue on trasparent color.

I have to check/write the .RMP of 22 UFOs, and I am not capable to do it too

I wish I develop a improvement to allow modders to set contraint on map composition of terrain
It is usefull for OpenTFTD: first column on Island , first row of port, landing submarine base,
but I think that it is usefull to Siberia terrain too, if you have some interesting about reuse it. and "Plane Crash Site"

An other improvement that I wish develop It is the option to have a new pre-stage on ALIEN_BASE_MISSION
On your site there are some map set that could be used for this purpouse
("Beaches of Normandy", "Sand Castle", "Sand Storm")
other than the Pyramid maps of Luke, if he agree with this purpouse.

The problem is that there are few expert Map Maker to concretize this ideas, indeed they are only two people.

[Hobbes]

I wish I develop a improvement to allow modders to set contraint on map composition of terrain
It is usefull for OpenTFTD: first column on Island , first row of port, landing submarine base,
but I think that it is usefull to Siberia terrain too, if you have some interesting about reuse it. and plane crash on desert

There are two different issues at stake that can't be modded right now:
- How missions are generated and the terrain is chosen
- How the Battlescape is created

Solving the first issue would allow to use the following conditions for all missions:
* Multipart missions (condition only allowed for Cydonia mission)
* The UFO disappearing after reaching its target (only allowed to use for Terror Sites)
* Missions in northern/southern hemispheres (only allowed to use for UFO missions)
* Battlescape size is fixed for each mission, i.e., you can't choose between a 50x50 or a 60x60 battlescape for a terror site.

Allowing for all of this to be moddable (i.e. be applied to all missions and not restricted) would open more possibilities. There are also other conditions that could be created, such as assiging specific terrains for countries/regions.

The second issue is a bit more complicated to explain but while generating the Battlescape, the game does the following:
* Determines the location of the UFO (on craft assaults)
* Determines the location of the XCOM dropship
* Determines the location of roads (on terror sites)
* Fills the remaining space with map blocks, according to the parameters defined on the ruleset/mod

Now here, what would be interesting would be to actually create your own battlescape generation rules. Some examples:
* Allow the road generation rules to be applied to any terrains, and have more than 1 road.
* Allow for specific map blocks to be placed on specific locations of the battlescape (center, corners, sides, etc.) rather than randomly
* Set particular conditions for map blocks, i.e., if URBAN99.MAP is used, then the generator can only use URBAN98 and 97 on the adjacent spaces

This second issue is a bit more complicated for modders since they would have to create their own specific rules.

[davide]

I identifed  the the source code involved here:

https://github.com/SupSuper/OpenXcom/blob/master/src/Battlescape/BattlescapeGenerator.cpp

Some algorithm is into
void BattlescapeGenerator::generateMap() at line 1064

It is complex but attackable

Now I must go home,I will return later on forum

but as example:

Code: [Select]

     - name: ISLAND01
        width: 10
        length: 10
        firstColumn: true # sub case of next: onColumns: [1]

     - name: DOCK01
        width: 10
        length: 10
        lastRow: true

    - name: mountain1
        width: 10
        length: 10
        lastColumn: true

     - name: MAP55
        width: 10
        length: 10
#this maps could be used only on row 2 or 4
        onRows: [2,  4]
#this maps could be used only on column 1 or 3 or 5
        onColumns: [1, 3, 5]

    - name: MAPSPECIAL1
        width: 20
        length: 20
#this map when selected, it brings with its some specific maps on right and on bottom (random one between the list)
        rightMaps = [ MAPSPECIAL2_1, MAPSPECIAL2_2]
        bottomMaps = [ MAPSPECIAL3_1, MAPSPECIAL3_2, MAPSPECIAL3_2]
#this map is incompatible with other maps
        incompatibleMaps = [ MAPSPECIAL_ALTERNATE_1 ]


and for TERRAIIN

Code: [Select]

terrains:
  - name: MADURBAN
#a lot of roads
    roadTypeOdds: [75, 50, 50, 25, 25, 5]
#optional random size
    height: [50, 60, 70]
    width: [50, 60,  70]
#percentuage of increment aliens related to the picking size
    moreAliens: [0, 20, 30]
# alternative to hemisphere and textures
    regions: [STR_SOUTH_AMERICA]
#or
    countries: [FRANCE, SPAIN, GERMANY, ITALY]
#or
    cities: [STR_SAOPAULO, STR_FORTALEZA]

I apologize for the off topic and
I propose that a forum moderator move  last four posts to a new topic under "Modding/Experiments"

[davide]

Now here, what would be interesting would be to actually create your own battlescape generation rules. Some examples:
* Allow the road generation rules to be applied to any terrains, and have more than 1 road.
* Allow for specific map blocks to be placed on specific locations of the battlescape (center, corners, sides, etc.) rather than randomly
* Set particular conditions for map blocks, i.e., if URBAN99.MAP is used, then the generator can only use URBAN98 and 97 on the adjacent spaces

In my opinion, after a look on source code,
the priority for choose map block is:

• map block with position constraint
• ufo/craft position
• multi road generation 
• random rectangle map block any size >= 20x20
• filll remained holes with 10x10 map blocks
  

* Set particular conditions for map blocks, i.e., if URBAN99.MAP is used, then the generator can only use URBAN98 and 97 on the adjacent spaces

Could It be resolved join maps with MapView ?
Because it is difficult recursively reserve / recover space for adiacent maps.
Already exists a map set that has this requirements and that could be not resolve with position contraints ?

 

[Hobbes]

That is how the game works, but the thing would be to take it to a next level so that maps don't look so random and you can actually create battlescapes that look less 'random' and are more organic.

I'll try to explain what I meant before by showing .lua code I wrote for the Dawn City terrain on UFO2000 for 20x20 map blocks to connect with adjacent maps. Essentially, the Dawn City terrain was essentially designed to work like a puzzle, where the blocks would be placed randomly but afterwards certain portions would be replaced so that they would fit together with adjacent map blocks.

Code: [Select]

local function verylargebuildingfix(x, y, map)
local a = x + 1
local b = y + 1
local d = y + 2
local f = y + 3

if (map [x][y] == 60  and map [x][f] > 34 and map [x][f] < 43) then
map [x][d] = 78

end

Basically after the map has been filled with block of all sizes, this function connects the larger maps with smaller ones (the function is quite big, I'm just showing an example for a single map block). If map 60 has been placed (it is a 20x30 map) and adjacent to if there's a map on the range 35 to 42 (10x10 map), it replaces that map block with map 78. I'll attach images below of maps 60, 37 and 78 so that you have an idea of what happens. And I've also included a pic taken during a combat mission so you can see the effect

[davide]

Map down78 is partially overlapped to map dawn60.?

[Hobbes]

Map down78 is partially overlapped to map dawn60.?

Exactly. You fill the battlescape randomly and them you overlap as you want to create dead end roads, etc.

[davide]

Could i found all .lua file on area51map depo into downtown pack ?
In that file there are more than one lua file
I have to recognize all cases to find a compatibile declarative syntax
Do you have Times to show other cases ?