Author Topic: Terrain Pack - Info & Feedback  (Read 267711 times)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #765 on: March 06, 2015, 12:26:40 pm »
I've also integrated Hobbes' work into the Final Mod Pack. There's just no other way to keep a mod compatible not only with all other mods, but also with different version of the same mod - for example, the next release of the FMP will have not 4, but 5 item levels, if not 6. On the upside, less rulesets makes a mod more compact and comfortable to use.

Oh, and thanks for pointing the problem with the RMP file Hobbes, I'll take care of it ASAP.

Offline hellrazor

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #766 on: March 06, 2015, 01:35:02 pm »
I've also integrated Hobbes' work into the Final Mod Pack. There's just no other way to keep a mod compatible not only with all other mods, but also with different version of the same mod - for example, the next release of the FMP will have not 4, but 5 item levels, if not 6. On the upside, less rulesets makes a mod more compact and comfortable to use.

Oh, and thanks for pointing the problem with the RMP file Hobbes, I'll take care of it ASAP.

Which parts of it?

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #767 on: March 06, 2015, 01:40:42 pm »
Oh, and thanks for pointing the problem with the RMP file Hobbes, I'll take care of it ASAP.

You'd better, I'm getting m_range vector check crashes on the Railyard here :P

Offline hellrazor

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #768 on: March 06, 2015, 01:44:46 pm »
There are two possible solutions for this: I either remove the Port Attack alienDeployment and use the vanilla Terror Mission alienDeployment for the Port (and the future Island, Ship and Arctic/Antarctic terror sites), but that means no differentiated warning messages and briefing. Or modders simply adapt the Terrain Pack ruleset (and customize it as you see fit) and include it on their own mods.

Integrating what excactly? The complete Terrainpack? And then check everytime for a new Version and integrate it once again? That's not feasible.
I could define Loadouts  and Missionstone etc.. for the new Mission type, but in the end the issue about which mod is loaded first will still exist.

Also does it really require a new Mission for having different Terrains?
I personally would stick with only the original mission types and just have different terrains.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #769 on: March 06, 2015, 04:35:12 pm »
Truth is you can't expect mod's author to provide compatibility with every other mod made and not yet made.

+1

Oh, and thanks for pointing the problem with the RMP file Hobbes, I'll take care of it ASAP.

Thanks. I could do it but I figured that since it was your work it would be better to ask you first.


Integrating what excactly? The complete Terrainpack? And then check everytime for a new Version and integrate it once again? That's not feasible.

Solaris is doing it with the Final Mod Pack and I'm doing it as well: I have the entire Terrain Pack included on the ruleset of my UFO Redux mod, so that I can choose/change what I need for Redux and I have to update UFO Redux's ruleset everytime I make changes to the Terrain Pack.

If I instead started changing the contents of the Terrain Pack to fit Redux's needs (which would be easier) you can bet your ass that a lot of modders would be very pissed off at me, and that's why I didn't follow this route. Which is exactly the one what you and Arthanor are asking me to do: to change the Terrain Pack's content because of a particular mod's needs.

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I could define Loadouts  and Missionstone etc.. for the new Mission type, but in the end the issue about which mod is loaded first will still exist.

Or you could simply rename change the ruleset of the Terrain Pack, remove the alienDeployment that is causing the issue and include the ruleset on your .zip file, so it doesn't matter which ruleset gets loaded. And if you ask me I can even do that for you, if you don't know what to change.

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Also does it really require a new Mission for having different Terrains?

As I explained above to Arthanor, you don't need a new alienMission (the Port_Attack mission on the current ruleset will be removed on the next update) but you need alienDeployment to change the battlefield size to make room for huge map blocks such as Port's ships.

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I personally would stick with only the original mission types and just have different terrains.

How would you feel if I told you: I really like to use your mod but it is conflicting with my mod, and I want you to solve it by limiting your creativity and not use any of the new features, so that I don't need to adapt/update my mod?

Because that's how I feel with this kind of requests - the new features I've added are derived from OXC's development process and they enhance terrain design. They also conflict with other mods that change alienDeployments, since that subsection deals with itemLevels as well as terrain but no one gets to decide how other people should use alienDeployments (and other sections). If you don't like my changes to alienDeployment, you either adapt to them or stop using the Terrain Pack.

That being said, my offer to help anyone to adapt the Terrain Pack ruleset his/her your personal use still stands.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 05:40:42 pm by Hobbes »

Offline hellrazor

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #770 on: March 06, 2015, 07:04:22 pm »
Solaris is doing it with the Final Mod Pack and I'm doing it as well: I have the entire Terrain Pack included on the ruleset of my UFO Redux mod, so that I can choose/change
what I need for Redux and I have to update UFO Redux's ruleset everytime I make changes to the Terrain Pack.

So i could theoretically do the same, and try to do define terrains for UFO Landingsites on or near Cities (which would make total sense to fight there in Urban terrain then in in some Farm or Forest).

If I instead started changing the contents of the Terrain Pack to fit Redux's needs (which would be easier) you can bet your ass that a lot of modders would be very pissed off at me, and that's why I didn't follow this route. Which is exactly the one what you and Arthanor are asking me to do: to change the Terrain Pack's content because of a particular mod's needs.

I see. It makes sense but i just fell uncomfortable with because the ruleset gets really big (i wish we could split them into seperate files and also have a directory for each Mod). Including the terrainpack would also require to integrate the MAP, RMP and MCD files right?

Or you could simply rename change the ruleset of the Terrain Pack, remove the alienDeployment that is causing the issue and include the ruleset on your .zip file, so it doesn't matter which ruleset gets loaded. And if you ask me I can even do that for you, if you don't know what to change.

Removing it wouldn't help since the order of loading defines what is read last will be used.

As I explained above to Arthanor, you don't need a new alienMission (the Port_Attack mission on the current ruleset will be removed on the next update) but you need alienDeployment to change the battlefield size to make room for huge map blocks such as Port's ships.

Ok so we will still need the deployment after all, well thats not a problem because this easily adapted / integrated.

How would you feel if I told you: I really like to use your mod but it is conflicting with my mod, and I want you to solve it by limiting your creativity and not use any of the new features, so that I don't need to adapt/update my mod?

Because that's how I feel with this kind of requests - the new features I've added are derived from OXC's development process and they enhance terrain design. They also conflict with other mods that change alienDeployments, since that subsection deals with itemLevels as well as terrain but no one gets to decide how other people should use alienDeployments (and other sections). If you don't like my changes to alienDeployment, you either adapt to them or stop using the Terrain Pack.

That being said, my offer to help anyone to adapt the Terrain Pack ruleset his/her your personal use still stands.

I didn't wanted to piss you off. It was just kinda weird when i was looking through the ruleset, what you excactly did there and then i saw the Alienmission etc.. (which will not exists next Version as you stated). If i get it right due to all the changes, actually everymod which has own alienDeployment rules would need to integrate the Terrainpack (if people would wish to use it, which they obviously do because its a amazing piece of work).

So this change is not enforced by you, rather by the decision our programmers here did so we can Mod more (and have part of TFTD support i guess).

How could i define textures for the cities to have UFO's landing there use a URBAN terrain? (because you mentioned this)

And btw i have gone through a few of the MCD files of the terrainpack to adjust the HP values of mapitems, especially those which seemed to be designed with the aspect of multiplayer in mind. Would you care to take a look or use them?

Offline Hobbes

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #771 on: March 06, 2015, 08:06:22 pm »
So i could theoretically do the same, and try to do define terrains for UFO Landingsites on or near Cities (which would make total sense to fight there in Urban terrain then in in some Farm or Forest).

Yes. You can tweak the ruleset so that all UFO landings on a particular Geoscape polygon happen on urbanized terrains. Or, even easier, add those terrains to the texture definitions, but then the changes will apply to all polygons that used that texture.

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I see. It makes sense but i just fell uncomfortable with because the ruleset gets really big (i wish we could split them into seperate files and also have a directory for each Mod). Including the terrainpack would also require to integrate the MAP, RMP and MCD files right?

No. You don't need to include any of the Terrain Pack's .MAP/RMP/MCD/Resources files in your mod and be constantly updating them, only your own modified Terrain Pack ruleset. You just need to warn players that if they want to use your mod with the Terrain Pack they'll need to have the Terrain Pack already installed.

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Removing it wouldn't help since the order of loading defines what is read last will be used.

If you remove the conflicting alienDeployment entries from your modified Terrain Pack ruleset, then the alienDeployments from your mod will be the only ones used.

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I didn't wanted to piss you off. It was just kinda weird when i was looking through the ruleset, what you excactly did there and then i saw the Alienmission etc.. (which will not exists next Version as you stated). If i get it right due to all the changes, actually everymod which has own alienDeployment rules would need to integrate the Terrainpack (if people would wish to use it, which they obviously do because its a amazing piece of work).

So this change is not enforced by you, rather by the decision our programmers here did so we can Mod more (and have part of TFTD support i guess).

The alienMission code is a leftover from my testing that I forgot to remove. At this stage people will need to be updating their mods due to the changes brought by TFTD implementation, specially if people keep adding new features.

I've just checked the Change Log for the Terrain Pack and this is simply the latest one of a series of conflicts in alienDeployments with other mods due to changes I've made. Until here, they have been solved by me sticking to vanilla definitions and removing adding anything (new weapons, missions, alien races) to the Pack that isn't terrain related. And I've been keeping to this policy essentially to help other modders use the Terrain Pack without conflicts.

And trust me, if the TFTD Ship missions end up being a bust, first thing I'll do will be to remove them and any non-vanilla alienDeployment entries like Port_Attack, since they won't be needed anymore to use the Port terrains and they are causing issues with other mods. I've done this before and removed the alienMissions of Alien Hunt and Alien Raid exactly for those reasons.

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How could i define textures for the cities to have UFO's landing there use a URBAN terrain? (because you mentioned this)

Actually, I think I figured out a way to do it on the Terrain Pack through the ruleset. I'll need to test this first.

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And btw i have gone through a few of the MCD files of the terrainpack to adjust the HP values of mapitems, especially those which seemed to be designed with the aspect of multiplayer in mind. Would you care to take a look or use them?

Which ones did you change? Btw, those values were not specifically developed for multiplayer but rather inspired by the ones used in TFTD Port's terrain because of how they limit the old standard tactics scout and snipe from a long distance and to use explosions to level the entire map.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #772 on: March 06, 2015, 08:36:46 pm »
Which parts of it?

All of it, really. It's just not released yet. It'll be in 1.0 (tests are underway).

You'd better, I'm getting m_range vector check crashes on the Railyard here :P

Oops. :P Attaching fixed maps (I haven't made them from scratch, but removing the faulty connections should be enough).

How would you feel if I told you:

Off-topic but this is how I portray Hobbes now:



;D

It makes sense but i just fell uncomfortable with because the ruleset gets really big

Yep. I totally relate, man. But there's no other way. Modding is SRS BUSINESS, even if you mostly steal and integrate (like me).

(i wish we could split them into seperate files and also have a directory for each Mod).

My mystical powers tell me that this is quite likely to happen at some point. If the stars are right. :)


Offline Hobbes

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #773 on: March 07, 2015, 07:57:28 pm »
Oops. :P Attaching fixed maps (I haven't made them from scratch, but removing the faulty connections should be enough).

Thanks. I've uploaded version 3.3 to the mod site containing this fix for the Railyard maps and the fix for the 'grass inside UFO' problem.

Offline Infini

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #774 on: March 08, 2015, 02:00:04 am »
Up-to-date French translation for 3.3

Offline hellrazor

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #775 on: March 08, 2015, 09:49:11 pm »
Which ones did you change? Btw, those values were not specifically developed for multiplayer but rather inspired by the ones used in TFTD Port's terrain because of how they limit the old standard tactics scout and snipe from a long distance and to use explosions to level the entire map.

I modified heavily:
PORTURBITS
PORTROADS

and slightly:
COMBITS
DAWNDECOR
DAWNFRNITURE

With the settings i changed you can actually level the complete map again.
Maybe you consider putting this in.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #776 on: March 09, 2015, 12:47:52 am »
I modified heavily:
PORTURBITS
PORTROADS

and slightly:
COMBITS
DAWNDECOR
DAWNFRNITURE

With the settings i changed you can actually level the complete map again.

PORTROADS and PORTURBITS replicate the exact values used on the original PORT01 and PORT02 TFTD terrains. And, as I said before, I used the values of Port terrain while designing the new MCD files with the intention of preventing the whole map from being leveled with explosives.

Offline hellrazor

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #777 on: March 09, 2015, 12:51:30 am »
PORTROADS and PORTURBITS replicate the exact values used on the original PORT01 and PORT02 TFTD terrains. And, as I said before, I used the values of Port terrain while designing the new MCD files with the intention of preventing the whole map from being leveled with explosives.

Well, we are not playing TFTD here right now. But do as you as you please. I just find it unlogical that i can not blow away stair tiles and steel beams with Blaster bombs on those maps which use these MCD files.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #778 on: March 09, 2015, 01:00:40 am »
Well, we are not playing TFTD here right now. But do as you as you please. I just find it unlogical that i can not blow away stair tiles and steel beams with Blaster bombs on those maps which use these MCD files.

Logic (or realism) has nothing to do with this decision.

In UFO you can level nearly every one of the original UFO terrains. Here you can't level some of the Terror mission terrains, which adds some variety when playing since level bombing tactics are not as effective. 

And player use of explosives is overpowered on the original game, specially Blaster Bombs. Having a terrain more resistant to explosions reduces the player's advantage over the AI on explosives. 

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [MAPS] Terrain/Missions Pack
« Reply #779 on: March 09, 2015, 02:14:26 am »
These maps are mostly used for terror missions, where wide use of explosives is inadvisable anyway. I certainly don't use the "level everything" strategy, because it kills civilians and besides is overall lame.

I personally would prefer to keep tiles consistent with other tiles of similar materials, otherwise an inexperienced player won't get what they expect (a brick wall is a brick wall, its durability shouldn't vary much between colours).