Author Topic: [COMPILATION] Final Mod Pack (FMP)  (Read 581543 times)

Offline the_third_curry

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #240 on: July 11, 2014, 06:55:51 pm »
I've seen the armor list and it's shaping up to be very interesting. I think it's interesting to have multiple armor paths, instead of the original game where there's a very linear progression through 3 types.

Personally, I think the best way to balance an accuracy/reaction enhancing armor (which I can see you're attempting according to the armor spreadsheet) would be to have it reduce stamina and strength. In principle, the line of armor works by secreting an adrenaline-like substance which stimulates the control and reaction of muscles, but causes exhaustion to set in quickly.

Maybe something like this:

Armor 1 (non-flying):
Front: 65
Side: 55
Rear: 50
Under: 50

Stamina: -20
Bravery: 15
Reaction: 15
Accuracy: 15
Strength: -10

Armor 2 (flying):
Front: 80
Side: 70
Rear: 60
Under: 60

Stamina: -30
Health: -5 (would this reduce the maximum health or would it be applied as if the soldier was injured?)
Bravery: 25
Reaction: 25
Accuracy: 25
Strength: -20

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #241 on: July 11, 2014, 07:06:11 pm »
Thanks. I'll certainly consider this, though the main issue is when the armour would exactly appear in the game, and therefore what are its competitors (Personal Armor, or Power Suit?).

I'm not that enthusiastic about stat enhancement through biochemical agents though. The reason is the same as for enhancing psionics: this is not related to what you're wearing, so you could just as well get high on a berzerker drug and wear a Power Suit. That's why I wanted to stick to purely engineering-related reasons for enhancing Accuracy and Reactions, and just handwave it somehow saying it wouldn't be possible of a heavy armour because of butts... uh, I mean, because of a sensor array that is integrated into the suit and doesn't allow for heavy plating.

Offline Harald_Gray

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #242 on: July 11, 2014, 07:44:52 pm »
Well, I do have something similar in mind, but working on armours should be done in a complex manner; one cannot simply take them one at a time and just add to the game, they should form a coherent system. One of the basic guidelines for this modpack is not changing vanilla items, but otherwise it should all fall together. Therefore, I will naturally consider any good armour mod, but they'll likely be subject to adjustments.

I'm not sure whether you're talking about armor mods in general or your own compilation, so I'll take the bait, assume the former and argue. Because I do believe that many standalone mods do have their merit and many can work together or be used as a component in further mods }even if in modified form).

Many mods are created simply to add options, to let players choose something better suited to their play style. Let me display a little arrogance and use my own mod as an example. I've created armor that is less armoured than a Power Suit, becomes available *after* you've already researched the Power Suit, costs about as much as a Power Suit (elerium cost is the same as for vanilla Power Suit) and offers a modest TU boost. Nothing game-breaking, it fills the armor-rating gap between Personal Armor and Power Suit and offers a mild bonus to make it more appealing to players less concerned about soldiers' safety.

I'd say that makes it coherent with the vanilla game and compatible with most mods that don't make any big changes to it, regardless of it being a standalone mod. And the same goes for many other standalone mods - they fill gaps in the vanilla game or offer alternatives that are not overpowered but different.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #243 on: July 11, 2014, 08:03:44 pm »
Ah, I meant making a compilation of armours, like this one. :) I wasn't referring to making separate mods at all; in fact, I actually made one.

Offline the_third_curry

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #244 on: July 11, 2014, 08:09:43 pm »
Thanks. I'll certainly consider this, though the main issue is when the armour would exactly appear in the game, and therefore what are its competitors (Personal Armor, or Power Suit?).

I'm not that enthusiastic about stat enhancement through biochemical agents though. The reason is the same as for enhancing psionics: this is not related to what you're wearing, so you could just as well get high on a berzerker drug and wear a Power Suit. That's why I wanted to stick to purely engineering-related reasons for enhancing Accuracy and Reactions, and just handwave it somehow saying it wouldn't be possible of a heavy armour because of butts... uh, I mean, because of a sensor array that is integrated into the suit and doesn't allow for heavy plating.

For biochemical agents, I suppose you could handwave it as the chemicals have to be slowly and continuously administered by the suit's mechanisms as large doses would be overly hazardous.

But to stick with engineering reasons, the suits could be called the Electric Suit (the first one) and Jolt Suit (the second one.) They function by stimulating muscles using small (non-harmfull) doses of electricity that keep soldiers on edge, which leads to exhaustion after a while. Because of the accelerated exhaustion, it is not recommended that soldiers with the suit carry a heavy equipment load.

As for where they fit in, I think the Jolt Suit would make a nice compliment for the Advanced Synthsuit. Their armor values are similar (both are good but not strong enough to withstand the stronger weapons with any consistency), but they serve opposite purposes, one aiding sniper style soldiers and the other one aiding scouts. The Electric Suit could compliment the basic synthsuit if I tone down the armor.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #245 on: July 11, 2014, 08:31:29 pm »
For biochemical agents, I suppose you could handwave it as the chemicals have to be slowly and continuously administered by the suit's mechanisms as large doses would be overly hazardous.

Yes, but the same can be implemented in any other armour.

But to stick with engineering reasons, the suits could be called the Electric Suit (the first one) and Jolt Suit (the second one.) They function by stimulating muscles using small (non-harmfull) doses of electricity that keep soldiers on edge, which leads to exhaustion after a while. Because of the accelerated exhaustion, it is not recommended that soldiers with the suit carry a heavy equipment load.

Hmm, maybe... It leads to a possible TU bonus coupled with a Strength penalty. I'll add it to possible concepts. :)

As for where they fit in, I think the Jolt Suit would make a nice compliment for the Advanced Synthsuit. Their armor values are similar (both are good but not strong enough to withstand the stronger weapons with any consistency), but they serve opposite purposes, one aiding sniper style soldiers and the other one aiding scouts. The Electric Suit could compliment the basic synthsuit if I tone down the armor.

Maybe so. I'll think of it one step at a time, unless I think of/someone proposes something ground-breaking, which would pave the way to a total change of paradigm. :)

Offline the_third_curry

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #246 on: July 11, 2014, 09:59:42 pm »
Here's an idea for a psionic armor type that I don't think breaks the suspension of disbelief too severely (though feel free to disagree with that assertion.) The idea is basically this - embeded within their robes, ethereals have a small network of devices  that work to further enhance the species' strong psionic and telepathic mental abilities (basically their own version of the psi-amp, except that it enhances a natural ability for the ethereals instead of developing a new power like the psi-amp does for X-com.) These devices cease functioning when an ethereal loses consciousness or dies. However, X-com engineers have developed a method to create a similar "robe" for X-com agents by salvaging parts from the robes of ethereal corpses and augmenting them with psi-amp technology.

Robe of the Ethereal

Requires:
10 Ethereal corpses
1 psi-amp

Front: 40
Side: 35
Rear: 25
Under: 20

Bravery: 10
Reaction: 15
Psionic Strength: 20
Psionic Skill: 15

Robe of the Ethereal Elite

Requires:
25 ethereal corpses
2 psi-amps

Front: 55
Side: 50
Rear: 45
Under: 40

Bravery: 20
Reaction: 20
Psionic Strength: 35
Psionic Skill: 25

Does anyone think this has potential, or is it just a bit goofy?

Offline Unknown Hero

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #247 on: July 11, 2014, 10:27:52 pm »
@ the_third_curry

Quote
Does anyone think this has potential, or is it just a bit goofy?

I have not read the whole thread,  :o  but, yes this has great potential!
And it can always be tweaked.  :)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #248 on: July 11, 2014, 10:44:42 pm »
It is a bit goofy, yes, but fun enough to at least be considered. :D It's way better than many such ideas, which are both goofy AND dead serious (I mean, middle school dead serious). I sort of like it.

Offline Harald_Gray

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #249 on: July 12, 2014, 01:06:26 am »
Here's an idea for a psionic armor type that I don't think breaks the suspension of disbelief too severely (though feel free to disagree with that assertion.) The idea is basically this - embeded within their robes, ethereals have a small network of devices  that work to further enhance the species' strong psionic and telepathic mental abilities (basically their own version of the psi-amp, except that it enhances a natural ability for the ethereals instead of developing a new power like the psi-amp does for X-com.) These devices cease functioning when an ethereal loses consciousness or dies. However, X-com engineers have developed a method to create a similar "robe" for X-com agents by salvaging parts from the robes of ethereal corpses and augmenting them with psi-amp technology.

Robe of the Ethereal
[snip]

Does anyone think this has potential, or is it just a bit goofy?

I would say that it is a solution in search of a problem. Armor 40 is, by the time you can spare 10 ethereal corpses, a bit pointless. Sure, a psionic often stays in your craft, so he doesn't need armor, but then he won't need that +10 Reaction either. And the question remains, why not wear at least personal armor under that robe? It is not like the armor disrupts psionic powers, is it?

Why while I do find the idea of using remains of ethereals as a basis for psi-boosting tech sensible, this specific armor seems too impractical to me.

And not to be accused of only criticizing, here's my idea for a psi-modifying armor:

Tinfoil Field Suit

Utilizing the Power Suit technology, the Mind Shield technology and a few more advances, this Power Suit variant is designed to keep those of our soldiers who were born with weak psi defences combat-viable. The downsides are lower armor protection and the tinfoil field slightly disrupting the wearer's neural pathways.

Requires:
Power Suit technology, Mind Shield technology, Tinfoil Field Suit technology
7 Elerium, 10 Alien Alloys

Front: 95
Side: 75
Rear: 65
Under: 60

Reactions: -5
Firing: -5
Psionic Strength: +50
Psionic skill: -75

Weight: 12

This would be armor that would let you field some of your old veterans who were not lucky enough to have a high psi score without fear that they will wipe out your own squad. They will become a little weaker, a little more vulnerable, but still better than rookies. And it would be up to the player to balance training psi-strong rookies and improving his/her old vets. Oh, and the logic behind the psi-skill penalty is that if you want to block all incoming psi signals you'll have problems with outgoing signals too.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #250 on: July 12, 2014, 03:02:09 am »
Okay, I admit I do not understand, like, at all why everybody wants psi armours. OK, Ethereal robes are a fun idea, but why 80% of suggestions are related to psi?

Come on people, psionics is strong enough as they are now, there's no need to make your psions even more badass. On the other hand, if you think they're too dangerous or annoying when used against you, there's always the option of turning it off. Simple as that. Making specific armours to change it in either direction adds nothing to the game in itself and that's it.

Offline Harald_Gray

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #251 on: July 12, 2014, 03:31:41 am »
Well, I wouldn't have proposed one if it wasn't to show a design I'd consider more sensible and yes, I do think that psi-amp is more than a little overpowered. But I do understand the perceived need for psi armor.

Early game, people hate unpredictable and sometimes devastating psi attacks. There's little you can do to protect yourself and if you're unlucky, the first time you capture a live psionic is when you meet ethereals. Not a good time to begin researching psi-labs, then building them, then training your soldiers... Psi armor would help, right?

Mid game, you tend to discover that you can retire four out of five of your precious veterans, because their psi strength is too low and there's no way of improving it. All the effort you've put into keeping them alive was for naught, because you know that sending them to Cydonia would be suicidal. But if you could improve their psi defence...

So I'd say that most people are not asking for more badass psions. They're trying to justify creating armor that would make their precious soldiers more resistant to some of the most devastating attacks in the game.

Offline the_third_curry

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #252 on: July 12, 2014, 03:37:58 am »
Okay, I admit I do not understand, like, at all why everybody wants psi armours. OK, Ethereal robes are a fun idea, but why 80% of suggestions are related to psi?

I can't speak for others, but I definitely don't care about psionic skill being higher, I just threw that in there with the ethereal robe because it seemed consistent with the idea. Psionics are brokenly powerful for ethereals before you get psi-labs, and presumably that's the reason why so many people are requesting armor to neutralize it (that and all the other major ideas for armor seem to be covered.) However, once you start getting very good psi soldiers, they become broken for the human player. To me, flat out turning psionics off just feels a bit cheap and robs the ethereals of their primary trait.

Personally, I think the best way to balance psionics would be to make mind control based on line-of-sight, but keep panic as it is, and then cap psionic skill at maybe 60 or 70 for X-com soldiers. Psionics would still be useful, but it would greatly cut back on the mind control spamming on both sides.

Offline HWPgojira45

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #253 on: July 12, 2014, 11:49:23 am »
Seeming a little noobish and everything (As I kinda am) to both XCOM and OpenXcom...

I was wondering if there was a mod with a tracked plasma tank, instead of a hover plasma tank. It's just something I was thinking of a while back. Are there any in this mod, or any place where I can find one? I take it this mod pack would have something of the sort.

(If this isn't the place to ask this, please direct me to a proper location  :))

Offline Nattfarinn

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #254 on: July 12, 2014, 03:09:39 pm »
Okay, I admit I do not understand, like, at all why everybody wants psi armours. OK, Ethereal robes are a fun idea, but why 80% of suggestions are related to psi?

Come on people, psionics is strong enough as they are now, there's no need to make your psions even more badass. On the other hand, if you think they're too dangerous or annoying when used against you, there's always the option of turning it off. Simple as that. Making specific armours to change it in either direction adds nothing to the game in itself and that's it.

One could say that working on new armour types to mitigate incoming damage is pointless because you can always lower enemy damage instead.

I do partially agree, that nullifying hostile psi is close to turning it off, but keep in mind mods are often intended to be used in "bundles". Such armour could have much more sense when combined with mod that changes psi powers. :)