Author Topic: [COMPILATION] Final Mod Pack (FMP)  (Read 570854 times)

Offline Solarius Scorch

  • Global Moderator
  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 8768
  • WE MUST DISSENT
    • View Profile
    • Nocturmal Productions modding studio website
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #120 on: May 17, 2014, 01:01:02 am »
Hello Solarius,

I have seen this tree tech and I have one question : when is it weapons plasma to recover on the alien ? no need to know to manufacture them to use them !

Fair point. However, I don't really know how to go about it yet...

Basically, there are two possibilities:
1) Alien weapons are just weapons. Interrogate any sentient alien and he'll sing what button to push to make the plasma beam appear.
2) Alien weapons have some mumbo jumbo safety triggers that prevent us from summoning said plasma beam, even when pushing the right buttons.

Problem with the first possibility: it's trivial. Even researching plasma weapons is unnecessary, just use a hot iron spike on that Floater and he'll tell you everything.
Problem with the second possibility: it's probably stupid. I've seen many proposed solutions to this, and I think they all sucked.

Since we have the consensus (I think) that we don't want plasmas to appear as our weapons too early and push everything else aside, then we must deal with option two. Since I couldn't think of anything that wouldn't be stupid, I decided to... well... ignore the problem for now. Until we think of something that would more or less keep the present setup and also justify why torturing some poor Sectoid wouldn't give you the ability to use them. Hopefully.

Plasma weapons aside, I started a campaign with these rules and I must (immodestly) say that I really like the pacing. It's April already, I'm using the same old weapons, hunting live aliens for little bits of information and loving it!

EDIT: Can we please add Civilian's upgraded Skyranger as the Alloy Skyranger? It has a new tileset, two more soldier slots and a more sensible layout, but is similar. It just makes a nice flow, perhaps the first real upgrade of X-Com. I can attach the updated Vessel mod if you want.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 03:11:39 am by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Raidau

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #121 on: May 17, 2014, 02:45:12 pm »
Fair point. However, I don't really know how to go about it yet...

Basically, there are two possibilities:
1) Alien weapons are just weapons. Interrogate any sentient alien and he'll sing what button to push to make the plasma beam appear.
2) Alien weapons have some mumbo jumbo safety triggers that prevent us from summoning said plasma beam, even when pushing the right buttons.

Problem with the first possibility: it's trivial. Even researching plasma weapons is unnecessary, just use a hot iron spike on that Floater and he'll tell you everything.
Problem with the second possibility: it's probably stupid. I've seen many proposed solutions to this, and I think they all sucked.

Since we have the consensus (I think) that we don't want plasmas to appear as our weapons too early and push everything else aside, then we must deal with option two. Since I couldn't think of anything that wouldn't be stupid, I decided to... well... ignore the problem for now. Until we think of something that would more or less keep the present setup and also justify why torturing some poor Sectoid wouldn't give you the ability to use them. Hopefully.

Plasma weapons aside, I started a campaign with these rules and I must (immodestly) say that I really like the pacing. It's April already, I'm using the same old weapons, hunting live aliens for little bits of information and loving it!

My opinion about plasma is very simple. You can use alien weapons after researching it like in vanilla, but to reproduce them and develop new plasma tech (e.g. plasma beam) you gonna go through that painful tech tree challenge. So you will be limited to those weapons and ammo that you recover until you figure out how to reproduce them.  (And if alien equipment self-distruction is enabled you should not have lots of plasma weaponry)

Offline civilian

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #122 on: May 17, 2014, 02:59:00 pm »
Another option would be: You are able to use them, but not to manufacture them or their clips. Also would make stun more important (if you use the self-destructing weapon option)

Offline Raidau

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #123 on: May 17, 2014, 03:30:05 pm »
or their clips.

Of course, it goes without saying :)

Offline Solarius Scorch

  • Global Moderator
  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 8768
  • WE MUST DISSENT
    • View Profile
    • Nocturmal Productions modding studio website
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #124 on: May 17, 2014, 04:58:56 pm »
My opinion about plasma is very simple. You can use alien weapons after researching it like in vanilla, but to reproduce them and develop new plasma tech (e.g. plasma beam) you gonna go through that painful tech tree challenge. So you will be limited to those weapons and ammo that you recover until you figure out how to reproduce them.

That's what I thought, too; however, the problem is, there is a steady income of plasma clips that outweighs your needs by far. Therefore, the only difference would be not having plasma cannons - which admittedly is significant, but doesn't affect ground combat at all (save for hovertanks). So while logical and all, this solution is sadly not enough. Unless we develop it somehow :)

(And if alien equipment self-distruction is enabled you should not have lots of plasma weaponry)

No, this option is beyond retarded from a logical point of view and I don't even consider it. :) Even for the sake of game balance. (For why it's retarded, there were many discussions already, but it mostly comes down to the fact that this sort of a safety measure would be extremely susceptible to enemy sabotage, possibly disarming an entire army with a push of a button. Plus some other safety/technical issues.)

Offline Human Ktulu

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 130
  • Cuistre !
    • View Profile
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #125 on: May 17, 2014, 08:20:27 pm »
Or simply use "Terran Plasma Weapon" mod and make alien weapon unuseable for humain. But maybe allow to recycle it.

Offline Aldorn

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 762
    • View Profile
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #126 on: May 17, 2014, 08:56:31 pm »
  • ...
  • Alien Biology unlocked by autopsies of non-mechanical aliens
  • Alien Containment requires Alien Biology
  • ...


I propose you an idea

To be unlocked, Alien Containment needs :
- Alien Biology
- Alien Food Researched
- Alien Entertainment Researched
- Alien Reproduction Researched
- Examination Room Researched
- Alien Surgery Researched

To build an Alien Containment :
- Alien Containment Researched
- Some Raw Materials
   - n Alien Food
   - m Alien Entertainment
   - 1 Alien Reproduction (some parts of it are required)
   - 1 Examination Room (some parts of it are required)
   - 1 Alien Surgery (some parts of it are required)
- Money

I propose this for two reasons :
- to postpone alien containment research
- because Alien Food, Alien Entertainment, Alien Reproduction, Examination Room and Alien Surgery are unused, what is a little bit frustrating

(based on your NEW+Mod PDF)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 09:01:32 pm by Aldorn »

Offline Falko

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 810
    • View Profile
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #127 on: May 17, 2014, 09:07:48 pm »
you cant define raw materials for facility building (just money+time)
with live aliens needed for everything and 5 new needed things for Alien Containment why not just change the building time for laboratory to 90 day for the first 3 month there would be almost nothing to do -> same result :)


Offline Human Ktulu

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 130
  • Cuistre !
    • View Profile
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #128 on: May 17, 2014, 09:24:26 pm »
I do not wish to complex this part more than necessary. If it need alive aliens to make research, it is necessary to be able to place them easily.

Quote
EDIT: Can we please add Civilian's upgraded Skyranger as the Alloy Skyranger? It has a new tileset, two more soldier slots and a more sensible layout, but is similar. It just makes a nice flow, perhaps the first real upgrade of X-Com. I can attach the updated Vessel mod if you want.
Why not ? Actualy i use Skyranger & Avenger sides doors.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 09:26:19 pm by Human Ktulu »

Offline Aldorn

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 762
    • View Profile
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #129 on: May 17, 2014, 09:37:48 pm »
you cant define raw materials for facility building (just money+time)
You are right, too bad... Thanks for info

with live aliens needed for everything and 5 new needed things for Alien Containment why not just change the building time for laboratory to 90 day for the first 3 month there would be almost nothing to do -> same result :)

You are not wrong...

I do not want to convince you (in fact you help me a lot), anyway just to explain what I have in mind :

(Most of following ideas are not from me)

1) If, for example , you define :
- Any live alien is needed for Containment Research
- A live Sectoid Medic is needed for Medikit Research
- A live Muton Soldier is needed for Plasma Pistol Research
- A live Muton Leader is needed for Plasma Rifle Research
- ...
final idea is to assign some missions to your soldiers any time you want to progress (sometimes even to produce)

2) To make it playable and understandable, have to explain this somewhere, I have in mind : in previous research result

For example, once Plasma Pistol research has been completed, Research result could specifiy at end of report : "Leads to following Research :  Plasma Rifle - Needed : Live Muton Leader"

But do not take care of this, you make a really good job
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 09:42:35 pm by Aldorn »

Offline Solarius Scorch

  • Global Moderator
  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 8768
  • WE MUST DISSENT
    • View Profile
    • Nocturmal Productions modding studio website
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #130 on: May 18, 2014, 12:01:40 am »
I do not wish to complex this part more than necessary. If it need alive aliens to make research, it is necessary to be able to place them easily.

Yeah, this. It's already a bit hard to get anywhere, let's not make it even harder - the player needs to feel some progress.

Or simply use "Terran Plasma Weapon" mod and make alien weapon unuseable for humain. But maybe allow to recycle it.

Well, as I said many times, aliens have hands like us. Why would they be able to use weapons we don't.

Why not ? Actualy i use Skyranger & Avenger sides doors.

Oh good, I'll attach a slight modification of your craft mod to include this.

Offline Aldorn

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 762
    • View Profile
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #131 on: May 18, 2014, 12:30:49 am »
I will give my advice even if I am not invited to ;)

My advice alone is nothing, but in case many would think the same, this would mean that this should be perhaps discussed

So, I like this idea of Terran Weapons

Your argument explaining that Aliens have hands like humans is right
But aliens have not same brain as humans
So it could be, that we are simply not able to use directly their technology, as they have thought it with their own brain
However, research make us able to create a similar one, not exactly the same
And we are not living in same conditions, not on same planet, not on same environment, not from same culture, ...

In fact I vote for Terran Weapons because I like their look and the work done is of high quality...

Perhaps can it be something done in a later step

Your "Long SkyRanger" is nice
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 12:56:06 am by Aldorn »

Offline Falko

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 810
    • View Profile
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #132 on: May 18, 2014, 12:40:16 am »
my prefered playstyle in regard to plasma is now plasma weapon nerfed for humans + terran plasma as update option

Offline Solarius Scorch

  • Global Moderator
  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 8768
  • WE MUST DISSENT
    • View Profile
    • Nocturmal Productions modding studio website
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #133 on: May 18, 2014, 01:07:06 am »
Guys, I really don't want to come off as unwelcoming to your ideas, I am actually desperate for them, but while I can't speak for the whole team, I cannot suspend my disbelief that high. Aliens have different minds, sure, but they interact with the same outside world that we do, and tools in their hands must work the same ass in our hands. Especially tools with a purpose as primal as killing.

I was thinking about some sort of a psionic lock on alien weapons (note how they don't have scopes!), but it's of no use - the actual mechanism is purely physical, so our scientists would easily circumvent any safety guards given enough time. Which is exactly what happens in vanilla, I think.

And by the way: the problem isn't that alien weapons are too powerful in X-Com hands; the problem is that you get them too soon, which invalidates almost all other weapons so you don't have the time to enjoy them.

---====---

Now, regarding my test campaign. I decided to become a little more forthcoming to the players and move the getOneFree feature with key techs to Leaders and Commanders as well. The reason is, Engineers are a bit too easy to come by in enough quantities, and even if you catch one, it'll likely result ion something useless, like some UFO information. Since Leaders and Commanders must come from somewhere, I assume they may have some engineering and medical knowledge, so now they also yield this information (but not the standard UFO/alien race info).

In May, I encountered a Large Scout with Ethereals (playing on Veteran). Man, this was unbelievably hard with no sci-fi weapons; I certainly wouldn't have managed without save scumming. I somehow managed with explosives, a flamer and a minigun, but man. Still, I kinda like this balance, after all you don't have to win, or even attempt, every mission.

I also increased Tank/Cannon's damage, because it was next to useless. It's still nothing awesome, but at least it has a chance to kill a mid-tier alien now. Update in the attachment (also new sounds etc.).

Offline Aldorn

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 762
    • View Profile
Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #134 on: May 18, 2014, 01:16:19 am »
Continue to stay the course, even if sometimes we issue a different opinion : your job is globally excellent and coherent, and will provide big improvements


EDIT : Solar, a question...

I tried to open your Skyranger with Mapview I just downloaded from Luke portal (version "updated") and there is an error anytime I try to open SKYRANGER, however it works with any other
- I renamed first all of your files PLANE_X.xxx to PLANE.xxx
- Icopy them in a new UFO directory, in respective subdirectories
Failure
I tried with original Skyranger files, same failure (Exception due to data key that does not exist in dictionnary)

Could you tell me which tool (an eventually which release) you used to work on Skyranger ?

(I tried this version https://openxcommods.weebly.com/general-map-creation.html then https://github.com/pmprog/OpenXCOM.Tools/tree/master/Distribution, and another lnk I found on this site, but same result)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 02:19:47 am by Aldorn »