Author Topic: [COMPILATION] Final Mod Pack (FMP)  (Read 568367 times)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2014, 03:45:01 am »
Sorry about double-posting, but this would be confusing otherwise.

So, I started working on the armour concepts. I haven't coded anything yet, and honestly I think it would be best to leave it to you, Human Ktulu, since you already started doing this. I focused on what to do with the armours we have.



First, we have the beginning armours: Uniform, Combat and Dragonskin; in other words, light, medium and heavy. These gave me a headache, since they should be either useless or overpowered. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Earth armours - plasmas mostly ignore them anyway; but apparently you want them and people certainly like having tactical options, so I did my best to make them usable and balanced. I talked with Dioxine, and here's what we decided:

No armour: no changes. Vanilla items should stay as they were, because the game was balanced with them in mind.
Combat armour: armour values 28/12/16/12; it is the most generous we can give without becoming unrealistic, based on what these armours can do in real life. Also none of the damage reduction % nonsense, except for armour piercing attacks, because that's what they were made to do. And a little acid bonus. Also -5 to TUs, Stamina and Reactions (that last one because of the helmet). Weight 8.
Dragonskin: 35/16/30/12. Similar profile, Melee damage bonus since it's metal (it won't do anything against Reapers anyway :P ), bigger Stamina penalty, weight 12.

Yes, I know these armours aren't so good. Still, this is the best the 1999 technology can realistically offer. They would be much more useful if we fought enemies with human weapons (because again, that's what they were made for), but they still offer some marginally better protection than the uniform for the cost of mobility and reactions. I suggest giving them reasonably low prices.



Then we have the second tier of armours: Alien Alloys. We have the Personal Armour and let's not change it if we don't have to. Then there's my Jump Armour, which is generally a Personal Armour with smaller armour values, so there's not much to talk about either.

And finally there's the Psionic Armour which... well, I don't really know what to do with. I don't want it to simply be a Personal Armour with better Psi Strength, because that's kinda dull, and also why not a Psionic Armour based on a Power Suit or a Dragonskin as well? I would like to see something more imaginative, but I haven't found anything yet. Or we can just scrap that idea and make a "Carapace Armour" - a heavy armour made of Alien Alloys, with some penalties but better protection than the Personal Armour (something like a better Dragonskin).



Finally, the best armours. We have the Power Suit and the Flying Suit, which I don't really want to modify for the same reasons. But since we already have 3 early armours and 3 medium armours, why not make 3 armours here too? I dream of a Terminator Armour - an Elerium-powered, ultra-heavy monster with some big-ass weapons that normal suits can't even lift. :)



Anything else? Well, I'm loosely thinking about a separate branch of armours caused "synthmuscle armours", which don't offer as good protection as normal armours (thinner, lighter plating), but give some good stat bonuses (because you have some excessive strength left). It's just an idea though.

Naturally, all new armours (psionic armour or its equivalent, as well as the "terminator") would require new sprites, which is a pain, but maybe we can steal and alter some of Dioxine's designs. :P It'll still be a lot of work though.

I'm attaching an .xls file with all this information. It consists of two spreadsheets: one (Normal) is with the armours as they are now, the other (Proposed) contains new values I came up with. Please have a look at it. :)

Offline Human Ktulu

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2014, 08:33:19 pm »
Not bad !

After playing few times with this addon, I'm agree with you. Give +5 TU for basic uniform is a bad idea.

For the Psionic Armor, the goal is to help the weakest  soldier's in bravery and psi strengh resist a little more at psi attack, sort of mind shield. I wanted to avoid giving too much advantage by equipping the energy and flying suits with this function, but to give the chance to the soldiers who have only 10 points of bravery.

Best armours : I never use or produce Energy suit's. Why ? It's just a flying suit in less better.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 10:50:40 pm by Human Ktulu »

Offline MFive

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2014, 07:10:02 am »
a few questions regarding the armours in the .xlsx file

what are 'Under' and '% none'? i assume the none is simply a blank, a nothing percent(why add it to the .xslx?) and that 'under' refers to the armour underneath the soldiers, and if this is true, why list it for non-flying armours? the only time that you would otherwise take damage is grenades that land directly at your feet.

also, why are the % modifiers different for the powered armours and the personal armours? they are made of the same material, so wouldn't they be susceptible to the same damage types?(the exceptions being smoke and stun)

what is the benefit for dragonskin armour? same 'under' rating and a worse AP rating, combine with worse acid rating, it seems far worse than the generic combat armour

just some questions and thoughts i had about this, this project seems amazing, keep up the great work guys! i might also recommend keeping a change log and newer files in the OP, makes it easier for people to find all of the latest parts.

Offline Raidau

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2014, 10:58:44 am »
Regarding armor. I downloaded existing mod 4 or 5 days ago and tweaked it according to my feelings, and the result is almost the same as Solarius Scorch described :) but i think those weight are a little too high, im using 7 foor dragonskin, 6 for combat armor and 4 for kevlar, and they are still quite cumbersome for rookies, so leaving them without any armor is a viable alternative. I already tweaked the armor values, making them generally weaker than alloy armor and frontal armor always the strongest.

I dont think reaction penalty is a good idea, since x-com soldiers reactions already suck.

I also have some new ideas which im about to test, but i dont have experience in creating new sprite sheets, i cant release new armor without new graphics for public:)

Im going to add:
Assault armor: early game, researchable and manufacturable. Strong frontal armor, weak sides and rear, high weight. I suppose this armor will help keeping your engeneers busy if you play with long research mods, before you start using alien alloys.

Fire-Acid-proof beam-deflecting armor: early game, researchable and manufacturable. Light armor with low armor values, fire immunity, 50-80% acid resistance, 15-40% laser resistance, 10-20% plasma resistance. Or so. Lets you use a lot of incendiaries in close quarters.

Biomechanical suit: based on live muton research and personal armor. Provides a bit less frontal armor, more rear armor, adds some TU, stamina and strength. VERY expensive production.

My idea for psi-armor is that it must isolate psi-activity: lower psi-skill and raise psi-strength, to avoid boosting psi-capable soldiers even further.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 03:54:10 pm by Raidau »

Offline wsmithjr

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2014, 05:21:32 pm »
When using Firearms Compilation 1.2, the Scatter Laser shows up at game start in the UFOpaedia.  Can't manufacture it or anything, but it's visible.  Is this a side-effect or a mini-bug?

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2014, 06:24:49 pm »
Not bad !

Thank you :)

For the Psionic Armor, the goal is to help the weakest  soldier's in bravery and psi strengh resist a little more at psi attack, sort of mind shield. I wanted to avoid giving too much advantage by equipping the energy and flying suits with this function, but to give the chance to the soldiers who have only 10 points of bravery.

I understand, but the problem is that it seems to be more of an item than a suit - something to be used separately, like a passive Psi-Amp. It was much better in some other games, like UFO: Aftershock (where helmets were separate from the armour) or UFO: Extraterrestrials (where there was actually a special slot for "mind shields" - basically tinfoil headgear.

Having said that, I don't think soldiers with Bravery 10 need any help - they will improve with time. It's worse for those with low Psi Strength, as there's nothing we can do for them, but I also don't think boosting their Psi Strength with an item would be fair. The only honest application of this feature would be to enhance Psi Skill, but psionics make the game super-easy already and I don't want to make it even worse. (I might change my mind since the "line sight only" psionic attacks option has been introduced recently, but I haven't checked it yet.)

Best armours : I never use or produce Energy suit's. Why ? It's just a flying suit in less better.

I do use them. The Flying suit is goddamn expensivei n terms or Elerium, and especially with the Plasma Beam Mod (where Elerium is needed as ammunition).

a few questions regarding the armours in the .xlsx file

what are 'Under' and '% none'? i assume the none is simply a blank, a nothing percent(why add it to the .xslx?)

"None" damage denotes damage with no associated type, or "type 0" in terms of the ruleset. See description for damageType flag in the Ruleset Reference.

and that 'under' refers to the armour underneath the soldiers, and if this is true, why list it for non-flying armours? the only time that you would otherwise take damage is grenades that land directly at your feet.

Or up to 1 tile away, then it also hits your under armour.
Which is what happens, like, every mission. :P

also, why are the % modifiers different for the powered armours and the personal armours? they are made of the same material, so wouldn't they be susceptible to the same damage types?(the exceptions being smoke and stun)

It's how it was in the vanilla game, so I didn't want to change their properties withoug a good reason. Well, the material is the same, but the technology is probably quite different. I think we can accept this.

what is the benefit for dragonskin armour? same 'under' rating and a worse AP rating, combine with worse acid rating, it seems far worse than the generic combat armour

It protects better against APs than the Combat Armour. Frankly, I don't understand this question. Are you referring to the fact that it's 80% instead of 70%? But the difference in armour values more than offsets this, so I don't think that's it?

just some questions and thoughts i had about this, this project seems amazing, keep up the great work guys! i might also recommend keeping a change log and newer files in the OP, makes it easier for people to find all of the latest parts.

Thanks! It's all more of a preparation phase now, but yeah, we made a few things already.
I agree about the changelog, but I'll leave it to Human Ktulu, because it was his idea. :P (Please, pretty please!)

PS. I know that the Plasma Tank doesn't work for some reason - it has 0 ammo when taken on a mission. Id didn't even work in the original mod where I took it from. I'll fix it soon.

EDIT: I fixed the tank, but now I'm thinking of making plasma ammo for plasma tanks... So I'm not uploading yet. :D
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 10:27:42 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Human Ktulu

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2014, 11:11:24 pm »
Thanks for returns !

As Solarius said, the project is in preparation phase, for the moment we are defining the broad outlines. I will add in first post latest packages, but that remains WIP versions. As soon as the base of this mod is established, we will be able more easily to make a changelog.

Quote
(I might change my mind since the "line sight only" psionic attacks option has been introduced recently, but I haven't checked it yet.)
+1

Moreover the question of extra passive equippements need to be cleared : it's possible or not ?

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2014, 05:15:04 am »
Moreover the question of extra passive equippements need to be cleared : it's possible or not ?

AFAIK it can't be done right now, without modifying the code. But I think it's too early for that :)

Offline Human Ktulu

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2014, 12:15:52 pm »
Hi, I return on Tech Tree  :P

About the "nuclear laser weapons", you thought of using the resources of the railgun mod ?

For UFO navigation, it will be well to pass by a interrogation alien, the navigator. If not the vessels "Sentinel" and "Thunderstorm" can beings too quickly discovered !

[EDIT] Hum, more I see your tree tech, and more i like it !  :-*
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 01:23:52 pm by Human Ktulu »

Offline yrizoud

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2014, 01:29:22 pm »
The Engineer doesn't unlock anything in vanilla, he could be a prerequisite somewhere (Navigator unlocks the precious Hyperwave decoder)


Offline Human Ktulu

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2014, 04:22:29 pm »
I use DIA (superb software !) to make a little working and to thus better understand the approach of Solarius.
I replaced label "Alien power system" by "Alien technology" and connect it to plasma research.


Offline Falko

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2014, 05:39:10 pm »
13 laser-something-techs looks like overkill to me
2 of 3 "enabler"-techs leads to a month waiting period for scientists
(3 days till first ufo, 2 days till corpse researched, 2 days till alien biology researched, 18 days build time, 2 day till next ufo for living alien, 2 days till living alien researched , 2 days till alien researched, 2 days till alien technology researched
best case (2 days for each research) = 33 days until you can start researching anything useful
(yeah you can do elerium, motionscanner, medikit  but mostly the scientists are waiting around doing nothing :( )

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2014, 11:10:26 am »
About the "nuclear laser weapons", you thought of using the resources of the railgun mod ?

Actually, I wanted to use the Piratez sprites. It's complicated to explain, but generally speaking, nuclear lasers have colours like the Laser Rifle, while normal lasers are green. It's a colour scheme I got accustomed to, so I thought other people might be too. But we can of course do it differently, for example use the recent recolour mod.

But... please, let's not use the railgun mod graphics. :P


[EDIT] Hum, more I see your tree tech, and more i like it !  :-*

Thanks! XD It's a bit of a hit or miss, but I'm trying.

The Engineer doesn't unlock anything in vanilla, he could be a prerequisite somewhere (Navigator unlocks the precious Hyperwave decoder)

I agree. I have a few ideas, but haven't really decided yet. UFO Power source maybe?

(Yeah, I can see you did the same on your tree)

I use DIA (superb software !) to make a little working and to thus better understand the approach of Solarius.
I replaced label "Alien power system" by "Alien technology" and connect it to plasma research.

Alien interrogation is not much of a prerequisite though - it's almost the same. If it was a Commander, then sure.

I looked at your tech tree, it looks much clearer than mine. :D Otherwise I can't see many differences, if any; which means that either I can't look (which is possible), or that we have a consensus (which would be great).

13 laser-something-techs looks like overkill to me

Hmm... We can reduce the number by merging the Laser Cannon and HWP Laser technologies. It would be the prerequisite to laser hand weapons, and Laser Weapons would be the prerequisite to Laser Defence. I think it's the only place we can make a cut. And I did so - let me know if I should revert it, but I think it's better this way.
Oh, and I did the same for the Gauss tree.

2 of 3 "enabler"-techs leads to a month waiting period for scientists
(3 days till first ufo, 2 days till corpse researched, 2 days till alien biology researched, 18 days build time, 2 day till next ufo for living alien, 2 days till living alien researched , 2 days till alien researched, 2 days till alien technology researched
best case (2 days for each research) = 33 days until you can start researching anything useful
(yeah you can do elerium, motionscanner, medikit  but mostly the scientists are waiting around doing nothing :( )

I think it's not so bad. As you said, you can start researching Motion Scanner straight away, and by the time they're done, there's fair chance the troopers will be back with some dead Sectoids to operate on. Then there are Alien Alloys, Mind Probe, Elerium... Sure, if you hire 100 scientists, you can outpace your alien artefacts acquisition, but I think we can discourage this model for early games anyway.
Besides, if we want to slow down the technological progress, we need to make it harder. :) We could make some tech harder in terms of research points to give the scientists something to do, but I think it makes no difference really.

EDIT: I made a new version of the firearms compilation mod - added Yrizoud's early medikit, so that you wouldn't have to watch your soldiers die before you discover the actual Medikit. Naturally, it's big, heavy and unwieldy.
(We could make it researchable if you think it's too good. Then it would basically be a purely human effort at making something that cures plasma burns.)

EDIT 2: I had an idea regarding psionic items. We can make psi belts! Basically just make a 4x1 item, so that fits nowhere except the belt slot, and voila. Of course Warboy would have to enable it first (adding a non-removable flag for a non-armour item is necessary, otherwise it would cause problems), but chances are this will happen.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 01:42:45 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline civilian

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2014, 02:52:38 pm »
About the armors, here is what I use in my personal mod:

Uniform mod (almost no protection), buyable from start
Personal Armor (boost bravery +10)
Jump Armor (boosts reaction+10) using your original stats
Power Suit (armor stats from original Flying Suit) no flying, midgame
Flying Suit (armor stats from the original Power Suit ) flying, but weak +adds 20 PSI-Defense, mid- to-endgame
Ultimate Suit (Sunfire armor with sligthly better armor than the Power Suit), flying and adds 20 PSI-Defenses, final game

I am very content with this settings. Every armour served a purpose during the game. And it forced me to make tactical decisions when equipping units.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2014, 03:03:27 pm »
About the armors, here is what I use in my personal mod:

Uniform mod (almost no protection), buyable from start
Personal Armor (boost bravery +10)
Jump Armor (boosts reaction+10) using your original stats
Power Suit (armor stats from original Flying Suit) no flying, midgame
Flying Suit (armor stats from the original Power Suit ) flying, but weak +adds 20 PSI-Defense, mid- to-endgame
Ultimate Suit (Sunfire armor with sligthly better armor than the Power Suit), flying and adds 20 PSI-Defenses, final game

I am very content with this settings. Every armour served a purpose during the game. And it forced me to make tactical decisions when equipping units.

Maybe it is tactically diverse and even balanced, but it makes little to no sense.
Bonus to Bravery? I assume it has a blind visor? :)
Jump Armor +10 Reactions? Does it have neural injectors or something? If so, why other armours don't have it?
Flying Armour +20 Psi Defense? Why other armours don't have it if it's possible?
I actually like switching around Power Suit and Flying Suit's stats. It makes sense.
The Ultimate Suit is certainly worth considering.