Author Topic: Make Dual Wielding Useful  (Read 10497 times)

Offline Qpoter

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Make Dual Wielding Useful
« on: February 15, 2014, 09:41:51 pm »
Right now, there is pretty much no good reason to dual wield weapons. Dual wielding could be made far more useful by having an option to fire both weapons at once. When this is done, the rate of fire is doubled, so taking an auto shot while dual wielding plasma pistols will take 6 shots. There will still be an option to use only one weapon at once.

 If weapons with different rates of fire are used, the highest time unit cost of the two for the given shot type will be used.

If you think dual wielding heavy plasma guns and using auto fire will turn any unit into a walking tank, you are probably right, but I propose a solution to this.

 Normally the penalty for firing two handed weapons with the other hand occupied is a 20 percent accuracy loss. However, when firing two 2 handed weapons at once, this penalty should be a whopping 60 percent, which will leave you with a very poor accuracy value.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 10:30:44 pm by Qpoter »

Offline Shoes

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2014, 10:36:11 pm »
I would also like to see combat shields go in :3

Offline Qpoter

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2014, 10:54:11 pm »
Afaik projectiles can't impact handobs.

Offline Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2014, 12:03:46 pm »
Afaik projectiles can't impact handobs.
Don't have to. Just make them add a boost to "forward" armor.

And I'd really like to see akimbo auto-shooting from dual-wielded pistols, with minimal accuracy and just sheer rate of fire.
And you should not be able to akimbo-shoot weapons it takes two hands to wield.

Dual-striking with stunrods should be an option though.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2014, 04:33:18 pm »
Yeah, twin-wielding two-handed weapons would look silly, even with an appropriate penalty to-hit. But two Stun Rods could be viable, at a price at to-hit chance.
I think raising TUs to fire by 20% and decreasing accuracy by the same amount should be fine for firing two pistols.

Offline Qpoter

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2014, 06:46:12 pm »
Why would there be any loss in accuracy for using a weapon that can already be used effectively with a single hand?

As much as I want to dual wield Heavy Plasmas, I do agree that it would be ridiculous, so this would be restricted to single hand weapons (does the two handed flag apply to melee weapons?).

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 06:56:30 pm »
Why would there be any loss in accuracy for using a weapon that can already be used effectively with a single hand?

Yes, using two weapons at once is considerably harder than using just one. :) (Well I never attempted it myself, but try drawing with two pencils...)

As much as I want to dual wield Heavy Plasmas, I do agree that it would be ridiculous, so this would be restricted to single hand weapons (does the two handed flag apply to melee weapons?).

AFAIK it does now. And I think it should stay so, especially if we add one-handed melee weapons.

On a separate note, I believe that even when dual-wielding, we still should be allowed to fire only one weapon. The firing menu should reflect this by adding additional options (Aimed/Snap/Auto x2).

Offline Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 08:22:19 pm »
Yes, using two weapons at once is considerably harder than using just one. :) (Well I never attempted it myself, but try drawing with two pencils...)

AFAIK it does now. And I think it should stay so, especially if we add one-handed melee weapons.

On a separate note, I believe that even when dual-wielding, we still should be allowed to fire only one weapon. The firing menu should reflect this by adding additional options (Aimed/Snap/Auto x2).
You can't shoot accurately with two hands because you can't aim accurately with two hands. Experiment sometime, take two laser pointers and point them at the same spot. How hard is it? Now imagine you can't see the spots to converge them.

A 20% reduction in accuracy would be too much (it's leave a Laser Pistol with just 8% base accuracy), but 10-15% is reasonable. Akimbo shooting is always "spray and pray" - there is no way to really aim except in the "general direction" of the enemy. TU increase should also be proportional to the weapon, for instance the Laser Pistol's akimbo auto-shot could take up 30%, enabling three volleys of six shots at 13% accuracy, versus a single weapon's four volleys of three at 28% (if not moving).

The whole point of akimbo shooting, I think, is to trade accuracy for volume of fire - it won't make sense to really increase TU use much. Double snap shots could really take just as much time as single weapon snap shots.

Shooting just one weapon should be unaffected, of course, even while dual-wielding - it'd be exactly as it is now.

Offline BlackLibrary

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2014, 02:09:05 am »
Interesting topic.  An alternative idea, that I read may be conceivable with future enhancements being thought about, is to simply have a option called "Akimbo" show up.  When selected, both weapons (which must be identical for weight and cumbersome purposes) fire at auto.  Accuracy is reduced as discsussed her earlier, but perhaps it also does automatic morale damage from the barrage of weapon fire.  Who can stand courageous and tall when a half dozen shells are being hurled at you.

IMO, Akimbo is purely flavor and fun...but thats about it.  Its just not practical is a wanton waste of ammo and energy to achieve inaccurate volume dependent more on sheer luck than skill.  If any one is familiar with Necromunda, I'd suggest some kind of pinning action vs any other real advantage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlN_4MMTdPs

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2014, 02:18:23 am »
Yeah, akimbo IS impractical, that's why I said "+20% YUs, -20% Accuracy", or something similar.
I'd still use it for the kicks. :)

Oh, and BlackLibrary-san: the guy on the video was trying to shoot at two different targets at once. This is completely different from just shooting at the same guy.

Offline BlackLibrary

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2014, 02:29:25 am »
Same difference, but your point is heard.  When target shooting you use some level of ironsighting.  Akimbo, you are trading that in.  Your off hand will recoil, bounce, be offtarget, etc through out it all.  Granted...this is all fantasy, so hey, I can't argue that.  But if there is to be balance (which I know you are a huge advocate for) you have to keep balance and fluidity in game mechanics, otherwise the game goes off kilter.  Dual wielding autocannons with HE rounds is just as bad as getting hit twice by a single autocannon hitting you twice...the only difference is accuracy and the amount of energy you expend trying to do such a zany manuever.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2014, 02:45:31 am »
But I absolutely agree. :) Still, seeing as the game graphics can take dual-wielding (it does), why not allow us to do so?

Offline BlackLibrary

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2014, 04:06:07 am »
Hey...I bar no one.  I'm just a voice calling from the desert saying "balance, balance!"

I'm a firm believer in balanced game mechanics.  When an aspect of a good game goes off kilter because of a bad mechanic, the game moves that much closer to recycle bin.  Not saying that will happen to XCOM, but...it did.  So many aspects of TFTD moved it to the recycle bin.  They took the framework of XCOM and doubled down...but doubled down in some of the wrong areas.  Made it incredibly brutal, made it incredibly tedious, doubled down on the need to micromanage even more...and lost it.  I was in my late 20s when XCOM came out.  Do the math.  I remember pulling a copy off the shelf and watching a sales guy grimace at the game while saying to me it was nigh unplayable. 

But I do digress.  Again...I bar no one.  I think its a great idea, just, imo, it would be great to find the sweet spot on the idea.  Hell, it would require a code change to do.  So its fantasy on top of fantasy at this point...but very doable.  Clearly their is criteria for knowing if a weapon is two handed when fired and if a second weapon is present.  A simple condition of if both hands have the exact same weapon item, and they are both one handed, allow the option "Akimbo" to display in addition to the firing options.  if Akimbo is selected, then do attacks as normal for both weapons, reduced for accuracy.  Or simpler even further...if condition is met and Akimbo is selected, double TU cost and fire both weapons per normal with a bonus of % morale damage for each successive hit out of the grouping. 

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2014, 04:21:22 am »
Actually, X-Com is not a well-balanced game. It never intended to be. It's a game about tipping the balance in your favour - for example, going for plasma weapons straight away. You can ignore this and play a harder way, but the game doesn't force you to.

Back to the point: I believe we are of the same opinion, so there's not much to add. I'll just sum it up, so please correct me if I'm wrong:
  • Akimbo should be allowed when two one-handed weapons are held. The weapons must be of the same type (this actually is debatable, I can't see why you wouldn't be able to use two different pistols).
  • You can either fire both weapons or just one. Firing one works normally.
  • You can shoot both weapons. It costs a little more TUs and Accuracy is somewhat lower for both weapons; the exact numbers are left to be determined later.
Anything else?

Offline Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2014, 06:06:11 am »
Actually, X-Com is not a well-balanced game. It never intended to be. It's a game about tipping the balance in your favour - for example, going for plasma weapons straight away. You can ignore this and play a harder way, but the game doesn't force you to.

Back to the point: I believe we are of the same opinion, so there's not much to add. I'll just sum it up, so please correct me if I'm wrong:
  • Akimbo should be allowed when two one-handed weapons are held. The weapons must be of the same type (this actually is debatable, I can't see why you wouldn't be able to use two different pistols).
  • You can either fire both weapons or just one. Firing one works normally.
  • You can shoot both weapons. It costs a little more TUs and Accuracy is somewhat lower for both weapons; the exact numbers are left to be determined later.
Anything else?
A special clause for Stunrods, that are nominally two-handed, however should allow a double attack when dual-wielded - for double damage, and at decreased accuracy and increased TU cost.

Perhaps worsen accuracy penalties for shooting weapons of different types? The reason you can coordinate your hands at all during akimbo shooting is because you expect both weapons to behave the same. Shooting from a recoilless laser pistol and a standard pistol simultaneously is going to hideously throw off your aim with one or both of them.