Author Topic: Make Dual Wielding Useful  (Read 9704 times)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2014, 06:10:44 am »
A special clause for Stunrods, that are nominally two-handed, however should allow a double attack when dual-wielded - for double damage, and at decreased accuracy and increased TU cost.

Perhaps worsen accuracy penalties for shooting weapons of different types? The reason you can coordinate your hands at all during akimbo shooting is because you expect both weapons to behave the same. Shooting from a recoilless laser pistol and a standard pistol simultaneously is going to hideously throw off your aim with one or both of them.

Agreed on both points.

So, Stun Rods are one-and-a-half handed weapons? Like bastard swords? :)

Offline hszp

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2014, 12:16:52 pm »
    What would the UI look like?
    • Aimed
    • Snap
    • Snap x 2
    • Auto
    • Auto x 2

    or disallowing double snapshots:

    • Aimed
    • Snap
    • Auto
    • Dual auto

    or something completely different.

Offline Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2014, 12:47:08 pm »
I was thinking to use "Spray&Pray" as the Akimbo auto-shot name.

And I had a different idea when thinking about the snapshots. Normally people don't just shoot two bullets at once when dual-wielding, they increase fire rate by firing each gun in turn, but quicker. Could it be done so that when holding two single-handed weapons, shooting weapons in different hands, alternating, uses less TUs? Like, 50% less TUs to snapshot or auto-shot if your last action was a snapshot or auto-shot with a single weapon in the other hand? With an appropriate accuracy reduction, of course. So your first auto-shot, with a laser pistol in the right hand, would use 25% TUs, and if you auto-fire with the laser pistol in the left hand as your next action, it uses 12% TUs and has less accuracy. Then you auto-shoot with the right hand again, and every following one would use 12% - seven auto-shots all in all, as long as the hands are alternating. Snapshots, same thing - and no interface clutter.

Stunrods would need an actual double attack, however.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2014, 02:37:38 pm »
And I had a different idea when thinking about the snapshots. Normally people don't just shoot two bullets at once when dual-wielding, they increase fire rate by firing each gun in turn, but quicker. Could it be done so that when holding two single-handed weapons, shooting weapons in different hands, alternating, uses less TUs? Like, 50% less TUs to snapshot or auto-shot if your last action was a snapshot or auto-shot with a single weapon in the other hand?

Way too complicated and unnecessary. Such a feature would be confusing, as it's not in line with the rest of the UI. Plus, it adds nothing to the game; firing the two weapons with just one click does the same thing.

But what we can have, and probably will anyway because that's how the game works normally, is having the weapons firing one after another.

Offline BlackLibrary

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2014, 03:52:29 pm »
Agreed...too complicated.  Whether Akimbo is accomplished with sequential fire or not is inconsequential.  Your end effect in a turn consisting of "X number of seconds" is the same:  Z number of bullets in the air.    All we can have technically is seeing one sprite fire after another, after another, etc.  Thats visually satisfying.  I love hearing a nice staccato, myself.

If any of you are familiar with Necromunda?  Its squad (gang) based 40K.  In that game the mechanic that is accomplished during a spray and pray is to force your enemy to duck his head, drop to the ground, etc when you shoot wild like that.  They spend their time dealing with the rain of lethal weapons and less on offense.  In XCOM, I'd love to see such an action damage morale or even their TUs in someway. 

Actually, -THAT- would be perfect!  Damage their TUs as well as damage them.  Do the chance to hit (reduced accuracy or whatever) as normal but it -ALSO- reduces their TUs!  Meaning, a Muton on overwatch with a bank of TUs for reaction fire loses a quantity of them!  That adds a nice element and a way to deal with spotting someone on reaction TUs in the bank. 

Same mechanic could be smartly applied to the minigun whenever you target someone...

Even superman pauses and loses the initiative when shot by a hail of bullets...even if its just to brag.  :)


Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2014, 06:22:11 pm »
Have I played Necromunda? Have I? I co-wrote an enhanced version of it! Granted, only two or three people saw it, but still - it was improved. :D

Now, you're talking about suppression mechanics. This is what Xenonauts have; killing aliens is hard there, so it's important to deny them TUs by firing at them a lot (preferably from heavy weapons, as each weapon has its own suppression value). It's a good system, but should it be used in X-Com? I can't say.

Offline Angelus_EV

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2014, 06:30:07 pm »
i can

NO, as a mod maybe, but no in the "vanilla" game

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2014, 06:46:53 pm »
i can

NO, as a mod maybe, but no in the "vanilla" game

I'm inclined to agree. However, we already have a number of optional changes that seriously affect gameplay, like for example self-destructing alien weapons, so I don't feel like I have the right to say no to this one...

Offline Qpoter

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2014, 02:29:10 am »
Although I am by no means an authority on the subject, I think it is important here to determine what exactly is vanilla compatible and what should stay in the modding realm.

Options like self destructing alien weapons are included because they are simple features that require no conjecture in regards to game mechanics. Something like suppression, however, would involve some guessing as to the suppression values of certain weapons, what suppression affects, etc. Since we cannot guess to any reasonable extent what the original developers would have done with such a mechanic, the details of it would be very subjective, so in the interests of preserving and original experience that feature would be confined to mods.

Dual wielding, I think, qualifies for the advanced options menu because we can draw some reasonable conjectures as to the exact nature of its mechanics. We can assume that it would be restricted to single hand weapons only, that it would have the same penalty as using a two handed weapon with no free hands (20 percent), and that obviously aimed shots would not be possible. Pretty much anything else oversteps the line of conjecture.

Offline BlackLibrary

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2014, 03:26:35 am »
Dual wielding, I think, qualifies for the advanced options menu because we can draw some reasonable conjectures as to the exact nature of its mechanics. We can assume that it would be restricted to single hand weapons only, that it would have the same penalty as using a two handed weapon with no free hands (20 percent), and that obviously aimed shots would not be possible. Pretty much anything else oversteps the line of conjecture.

I totally agree.  I go a step further and say the two one handed weapons must be identical.  No Magnum and a stun gun, or a laser pistol and a pistol.  Keep it simple.

Offline Mr. Quiet

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2014, 03:36:51 am »
How about a Knife and a pistol? Oh wait I'm an idiot..

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2014, 04:12:52 am »
How about a Knife and a pistol? Oh wait I'm an idiot..

Well, if they're only 1 square away... :D

Offline yrizoud

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2014, 12:30:32 pm »
I really don't see why you guys are trying to make "twin pistols" a viable soldier setup, I don't see any case where a soldier would prefer two pistols compared to an auto cannon / shotgun / minigun.

Offline Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2014, 01:44:12 pm »
I really don't see why you guys are trying to make "twin pistols" a viable soldier setup, I don't see any case where a soldier would prefer two pistols compared to an auto cannon / shotgun / minigun.
Low strength requirement, low TU cost for individual weapon fire if needed, double the ammo capacity between reloads, and lastly, akimbo plasma pistols.

Offline Qpoter

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Re: Make Dual Wielding Useful
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2014, 03:13:56 pm »
Pistols are more useful than a dedicated suppression weapon at close range. I would also use the more accurate auto shots of the bigger weapons at long range.