Hybrid game

[davide]

Ow man, excelent news about working on Terror from the Deep... Also i will love more if could be possible to expanded the scenario to something like: Dark Side of the Moon (where a moon base is build) and from there.... To the stars!!!

 
really there are only a .PNG with tileset,
UFO2000 is able to render maps directly by .LUA files (a scripting language)

[Nightwolf]

Beautiful!!!!

Yes yes yes

[MrFrustrated]

...

• When a UFO is shot over water, it isn't destroyed; you can recover it with Aquanauts.
• X-Com has both aircraft and subs. Only subs can go on underwater missions, but they can't fly (it's 1999 after all). Therefore you need separate underwater bases for the subs.
• TFTD aliens and UFOs probably wouldn't fly, they're just navy. Otherwise some aliens (Tentaculats, Hallucinoids etc.) would die if the UFO crashes on land.

...

I don't believe certain items should be recoverable from water submerged UFOs. The lore says Elurium 115 loses its power in water. So at the very least, E115 shouldn't be saveable. Possibly the weapons as well.

The bodies, alien alloy, nav computers and such should all be recoverable.

As for a flying sub, I think there should be flying subs and they should stink to high heaven. From an engineering standpionts, its very difficult to build something to work in 2 different enviroments. So if you do manage it, it will likely be weaker in 1 of 2 or more enviroments. From game lore, plasma and lasers shouldn't work under water.

From basic phyics, sound needs atmosphere to work. You have plenty at ground less. Less if your as high as Denver and even less in the hieghts UFOs and Xcom fighter tangle with each other. So sonic weapons wouldn't work as aircraft weapons.

[MrFrustrated]

This is a bit complicated, since you'll have two UFO's on the same map. Besides, this alien sub would have to come from somewhere, what's keeping you from sinking it en route or just getting to the wreck before them?
I think it would be enough if a UFO which crashes into the sea becomes far too damaged to recover anything of interest; probably just some Alien Alloys and MAYBE some corpses/personal items. Considering it would be later in the game, it wouldn't be terribly attractive anyway (though you'd still do it, I guess). Actually, this process should be automated once you have the tech to do it (sending a Triton to recover an undefended wreck wouldn't be fun).

I like the idea of creating an automated recovery drone for crashed ufos.

[yrizoud]

IMO, the interesting part of a hybrid game is mostly playing the TFTD campaign :
- with adding *some* of the UFO elements, ex. the TFTD flying subs can do city terrors or missions overland (even their crashes can be recovered on land, in the right terrain type) All TFTD lifeforms can operate on land anyway, except hallucinoids IIRC.
- avoiding redundanct techs and items (no Psi, MC reader, or flares)
- with keeping a similar game flow, ie very few bases at the beginning
- limiting the amount of UFO tech which gets carried over automatically :
    - no more Elerium-based tech because all is expended (this includes power armors)
    - lasers inherently limited because can't be used underwater - and the TFTD lifeforms may be resistant to it, so that lasers don't dominate early non-aquatic battles)
- Having the player start with personal armors and lasers may be a wanted game element, because it means the player has an advantage when he can put the battle on land. This advantage fades over time as the player invents technology that additionally works underwater.

[Arthanor]

Having some sort of continuity between the game is why people want lasers and armors at the beginning, more than the power boost. Fighting aliens on land with harpoon guns is so ridiculous.. There must be better weapons than that available to XCom for surface engagements.

Even rifles/AutoCannons/Rocket Launchers would be welcome and there is no canonical reason that I know of why lasers couldn't work. Alien alloys can be made on Earth if one decides they are needed for lasers like in many mods here and they don't take Elerium. Of course, XCom should not have any Elerium based technology as Elerium has long been reclaimed for other uses.

Although everyone wants it, I am not sure if personal armor fits that well. I guess XCom could dust off the old suits, but who knows how they would stand up to sonic weapons? If it is imported, it should have a significant negative resistance to them and of course not have breathing equipment (so only useable on land), so aqua plastic armor still makes sense.

I think a game designed upon early advantage on land for XCom (maybe armor, lasers and proper conventional weapons for sure) but a similar disadvantage underwater would make a lot of sense. We could use visibility: It's hard to see far for humans underwater, whereas aliens could use any kind of "vision", echolocation or other. Throwing distances could change too, until "swimming grenades" are invented. If vision distance depending on armor is implemented in OpenTftD, the ion armors could include something that allows you to see further, since they require study of aliens already any ways.

All of this since we are a land based specie, so we should do better over land than in water (and we're very good/interested at coming up with different ways to wage war on land, even without aliens), whereas we have a hard time under water and there's not that much effort going there.

[yrizoud]

Having some sort of continuity between the game is why people want lasers and armors at the beginning, more than the power boost. Fighting aliens on land with harpoon guns is so ridiculous.. There must be better weapons than that available to XCom for surface engagements.

In original TFTD game, it's justified by the combat being 95% aquatic.
It would feel weird if the game let you embark non-waterproof weapons with you 300 meters under the sea on every missions, and always have them in perfect condition when you need to fire a shot on land.

[Arthanor]

There's no waterproof weapon storage on the triton? I know they flood the interior for deployment and have "underwater computers" ( ), but still, I would expect some parts of it to remain dry (especially in the front where all the navigation stuff is).

It's possible to make excuses for it (in fact, it is possible to excuse pretty much anything with enough thought, what's hard is keeping things simple and coherent), but it would make more sense if it weren't so.

Or just make tritons unable to go on land, instead requiring the XCom:EU crafts for land missions. Amphibious sub/planes are iffy even as alien tech, they don't make much sense as base human tech (especially when there aren't any weapons to use while outside the water...).

[Solarius Scorch]

I'm not even really buying the "Elerium hates water" excuse, as garden hose would become the best x-Com equipment against most aliens (not to mention rain). Maybe a combination of high pressure and chemical composition of ocean water would be enough of a handwave, but it still doesn't explain why Power Suits suddenly stop working.

As for the "all Elerium was used up", well, that was the story in the original TFTD... But in the hybrid project we don't have the several decades gap, so what are we even talking about? Unless I'm missing something...

Therefore, I'm inclined to leaving X-Com 1 armours and other equipment as they are. TFTD armours are better anyway, so they still have their place.

BTW: in real life, how do lasers behave underwater? How much stronger is the dissipation, which could limit their damage and range?

As for plasma weapons, they're so completely fictional that they can work underwater or not, whatever we wish.

[Arthanor]

I think the "all Elerium was used up" idea is for a linear hybrid game where some things carry over from EU to TftD but they don't overlap. Not for a "meshed-hybrid".

I just rechecked and Elerium becomes inert with prolonged exposure to sea water (I think that's the phrasing in the Interceptor manual? That's what I've seen at least), but it doesn't necessarily vanish immediately (or explode). So you're right in that there's not really any reason to have much decay if you recover a UFO underwater a few hours after the crash. It's more of an additional reason for there being no more Elerium in a linear hybrid.

In real life, I would expect lasers to dissipate faster underwater than in air, but that's only because more can be suspended in water. Clean water should only attenuate lasers a big more than clean air (and we fire lasers through smoke routinely, which really wouldn't work all that well).

In fact, Particle/Gauss/Plasma technology would probably fare the worst underwater, since there is a lot more friction/viscosity to stop projectiles (and heat capacity to absorb the plasma's energy).

[Vulgar Monkey]

Yeah, at best.
At worst? Well, I'm thinking of the kind of thing you get in nuclear plant meltdowns when the superhot radioactive slag makes contact with the water storage. The reaction tends to be...violent.

[Hobbes]

I'm not even really buying the "Elerium hates water" excuse, as garden hose would become the best x-Com equipment against most aliens (not to mention rain). Maybe a combination of high pressure and chemical composition of ocean water would be enough of a handwave, but it still doesn't explain why Power Suits suddenly stop working.

It was sea water, which is highly corrosive to any material over prolonged periods of time (forcing ships to perform constant maintenance to reduce its effects) due to the salts it contains. There was an official short story called 'Moray on the Wreck' set between UFO and TFTD that described a salvage operation of a crashed underwater UFO to recover Elerium. IIRC, the main concern was if the engine housing had been already corrupted by the salt water or not, which would have allowed the water to enter the engine and render the Elerium inert. 

[Solarius Scorch]

It was sea water, which is highly corrosive to any material over prolonged periods of time (forcing ships to perform constant maintenance to reduce its effects) due to the salts it contains. There was an official short story called 'Moray on the Wreck' set between UFO and TFTD that described a salvage operation of a crashed underwater UFO to recover Elerium. IIRC, the main concern was if the engine housing had been already corrupted by the salt water or not, which would have allowed the water to enter the engine and render the Elerium inert.

Yeah, I remember reading it here years ago. But are you sure it's an official story? I've always thought it was decent fan fiction.

Anyway, yeah, sea water, like I said. Still doesn't explain most of tech loss - power armours (it's not like its Elerium is exposed to water), Psi-Amps, Medikits....

[Hobbes]

Yeah, I remember reading it here years ago. But are you sure it's an official story? I've always thought it was decent fan fiction.

Anyway, yeah, sea water, like I said. Still doesn't explain most of tech loss - power armours (it's not like its Elerium is exposed to water), Psi-Amps, Medikits....

Those 3 stories were officially released by Microprose to bridge the years between UFO and TFTD. Check here.

Power Suits and Psi-Amps require Elerium to be built. Medikits do not, but it would required to adapt them for underwater usage.

[bladum]

why not something like this?

Facts:
- I cannot imagine anything that goes under water 4800 knots without making huge tsunami wave.
- Also movement underwater is very similar to movement in low gravity enviroment like on moon / mars.

Interception:
- all interception is done in the air due to facts above
- if alien sub is UFO then after crash it can be taken by transport ship overland
- if alien sub is USO then after crash it can be taken by transport ship underwater but only shallow one (see Craft section)
- speed under water is very limited and basically its just craft moving to location and then wait to dive until specific location is reached
- UFO or USO type does not matter, actually alien race matters is this UFO or USO type (check Alien race section)

Alien races:
- there are space and water races
- space race does not live underwater (no crash missions)
- water race does not live over land (or some of them does not)
- water race shows up after 3-6 months
- based on race type, crash mission are available on land or / and water

Crafts:
- there is one transporter that is cappable of land and water mission
- skyranger can only take shallow water mission
- lighting can take shallow and medium water mission
- avenger can take any type of water mission (including final Tleth underwater) -> that is logical from story point of view

Types of missions:
- land mission done same as in x-com
- shallow water which is same as day mission on land (its day or night, 10% of all water)
- medium water which is same as night mission on land (its always dark, 20% of all water)
- deep water which cannot be accessed by x-com, all USO cannot be access there (70% of all water)
- so its all about setuping proper regions on the globe

Countries:
- existing countries should have more areas over seas
- few countries might be added to control more shallow seas areas like Indonesia / Arabia / Mexico

Weapons:
- standard, those that works only on land, cheap
- advanced, those that works on land on over water, more expensive
   - balistics, land only
   - laser, land only
   - gauss which is laser that works underwater and land
   - plasma, land only
   - sonic which is plasma that works underwater and land
   - distruptor / fusion works underwater and land
   
Story:
- starts as ufo 1, but ends as ufo 2 (cydonia underwater)
- there is one research tree but some technology from ufo 2 is moved to ufo 1 to
- most of battles are done over land, but some of them including the final one is done underwater
- as time passes the more and more battles are thought underwater, but still this is about 25% max

Alien bases:
- land aliens have bases over land
- water aliens have based under water but only in regions with shallow / medium waters, those can be accessed by x-com
- deep water cannot be accessed neither by aliens or humans but this is place of final mission

Terror missions:
- as only crashlands are done underwater then no terror missions are done underwater
- urban is used for inland cities
- port is used on coastal cities
- ship ?? i have no idea how to implement a ship


Tom