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Author Topic: Without any equipment, weight is 6?  (Read 15859 times)

Offline moriarty

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Re: Without any equipment, weight is 6?
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2013, 09:53:55 pm »
off-topic
Until it is fixed the game is broken. Forcing players to modding to get the original weight limits is supremely moronic.

last time I checked, this qualifies as a personal attack.

/off-topic

seriously, I can't understand the obsession with "100% vanilla" behavior. if we wanted a game that was 100% vanilla, we wouldn't be here today... okay, I'm kind of stretching that, but still, I guess we all agree that there were things in the original that were just plain wrong.

for me, the "weight" always represented "weight of stuff that the soldier carries". I never noticed that it was not zero when they weren't carrying anything, and I don't see why it ever should be more than zero, unless you want the clothes to count into this - but then you'd have to be able to send your troops into battle naked, just to give you the option of having soldiers with weight=0. which is truly ridiculous.

yes, I would also like to see the proof that warboy is talking about, but chances are that even if it is flawless, it won't convince everybody, because there will always be somebody claiming that "if it isn't exactly like the original, it is stupid".

so please, why can't we leave it at this point? I feel that the only good that could ever come out of this discussion is the added possibility of defining a weight for armor. and hey, we have that now :)

Offline OwenQ

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Re: Without any equipment, weight is 6?
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2013, 10:59:08 pm »
I agree that vanilla shouldn't be adhered to slavishly, but downloading the game should be close enough to the original (as intended) as makes sense, sans silly bugs and early 90's technical limitations. I'm using the vanilla behavior since that's supposed to be the projects baseline, and as far as I have seen it also seems to be the more sensical behavior as moriarty said.

Apart from being genuinely curious about what's going on under the hood, the current situation is that the game requires a mod to act 'as expected' (a character in nothing but coveralls being weight = 0). If the coveralls are supposed to weigh 6 units for whatever reason, I'll accept it with grumbling and just mod it. As it stands though that extra 6 weight puts some relatively tight restrictions on what characters can carry (especially the lower-strength ones).

Offline redrat9595

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Re: Without any equipment, weight is 6?
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2013, 11:40:27 pm »
Not to be rude, but I think most obsession stems from the about page: "OpenXcom is an open-source clone of the original..." I'm not a stickler for an exact copy of the original, but I love tossing auto-cannons on my rookies, and 6 makes the difference between old strategy and revising how I distribute weapons. I'd rather have it behave, by default, like the original and be able to do the other stuff by choice (advanced options, rulesets, config, etc.)

That said, I don't mind changing it in the rulesets to fit my belief (I'm in there all the time anyway), and I think the new armor handling is, again, AWESOME. Having played a multitude of RPGs and TTRPGs, though, I think the reason they would have made it 0 by default is for the same reason every other game does: lack of choice. You have to have the armor. I mean, that flattop hairstyle MUST weigh at least as much as a grenade, and we don't account for that. ;)

But again, I'm fine with how it is now.

Thanks,
Red

Offline sender

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Re: Without any equipment, weight is 6?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2013, 03:02:13 am »
off-topic
last time I checked, this qualifies as a personal attack.

Wasn't intended. Just saying that "you can mod it back so you can't complain" is not a reasonable response. That's a critique of a doctrine, not a person.

seriously, I can't understand the obsession with "100% vanilla" behavior. if we wanted a game that was 100% vanilla, we wouldn't be here today... okay, I'm kind of stretching that, but still, I guess we all agree that there were things in the original that were just plain wrong.

It's not like there is any especially good reason to change base soldier weight from 0 to 6. If OXC suddenly doubled the cost and construction time of living quarters and said that anyone who has a problem can change it back to vanilla values themselves, wouldn't that be silly?

Anyway, if we wanted to be 100% slavishly devoted to vanilla, we'd be demanding that soldiers get a free no-encumbrance clip every mission. But instead players can see why fixing the pre-loaded ammo weight bug is justifiable. Adding 6 weight to each soldier has no justification based on the vanilla X-Com.

Offline Warboy1982

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Re: Without any equipment, weight is 6?
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2013, 08:50:52 am »
for the record, i never "forced" anyone to mod anything, i prefer "allowed" or "enabled". that's my doctrine you're calling moronic, and by extension, me that you're calling a moron. i'm open to criticism, but saying "that's dumb, the game is broken" will typically elicit a response along the lines of "please go forcibly insert an umbrella in yourself and push the button"

the argument over weight has been going on for well over a year now, and personally i'm sick to death of it. i attempted to resolve the situation by giving players the option to do as they saw fit, and somehow that resulted in more fuel on the fire. the whole argument only exists because the whole concept of weight is bugged as shit to begin with. rest assured, that for every calculation and test case you propose, there is an equal and opposite one proving things the other way. so yes, the topic IS very much open for debate.

it got to the point where i just threw my hands up in the air and accepted a PR to "fix" it. and now i'm a moron for trying to settle the argument without getting involved or taking sides.

well, now i'm involved, and here's the code that will settle things once and for all

Code: [Select]
int __cdecl sub_413820(__int16 a1)
{
  v1 = 0;
  v2 = a_ObPos_DAT;
  v3 = 170;
  do
  {
    if ( v2->obdata_ref != -1 )
    {
      if ( v2->owner_unitpos_ref == a1)
      {
        v4 = p_ObData_DAT[v2->obdata_ref].0x2B;
        v1 += v4;
      }
    }
    ++v2;
    --v3;
  }
  while ( v3 );
  return v1;
}

you don't even want to know how hard that was to find.

tl;dr: you have a definitive answer. 0 is the correct default. congratulations, you were right. we can all sleep safe in the knowledge that the game isn't completely broken because we got a number wrong.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 08:56:03 am by Warboy1982 »

Offline sender

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Re: Without any equipment, weight is 6?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2013, 02:04:15 am »
I'm glad that my insistence led to fixing a bug that had remained unresolved and contested for over a year. You can argue about my methods, but not my results  ;D

Sorry if you felt offended or that I went over the line. I'm only here because I enjoy X-Com.