At what point will xcom be obsolete? / scifi literature topic

[kharille]

Hm..  well I wonder what non alien technology exists in the 2012 version that didn't exist in 94'.  Nanite medical kits?  I know, when the aliens arrive you get access to all this amazing new technology.  But it seems they didn't have night vision goggles in the 2012 version.  In fact, they didn't even have the darkness mechanic in the 94' version.

Talk about a step back....

Wonder if we can compare the 94' and 12' native human technologies further...  hm...  looks like they don't have elevators in the 12' version...  heh.....

[pilot00]

Is H.G. Wells 'The War of the Worlds' out of date? I mean, now everyone knows that there aren't any Martians but the book is still considered a classic even if it takes place on the beginning of the 20th century. To me that's how XCom goes

That book will never be out of date for one reason: It was the only sci-fi work that  had a realistic take on our gretest defender (and our greatest offender if we ever make it into other planets), the enviroment. In everything else that you read aliens and humans simply walk into the new planet who admitedly has parameters to support their life fuctions, casually.

[Dioxine]

You're much exaggerating in saying that it was the 'only' sci-fi work that took environmental issues of space exploration into consideration. Actually I've seen nothing special in it, being raised on hard sci-fi where the biological problem was as natural as gravity or radiation; and produced challenges which had many creative solutions. However, hard sci-fi is in a perpetual decline since about early 1970s...

[Hobbes]

That book will never be out of date for one reason: It was the only sci-fi work that  had a realistic take on our gretest defender (and our greatest offender if we ever make it into other planets), the enviroment. In everything else that you read aliens and humans simply walk into the new planet who admitedly has parameters to support their life fuctions, casually.

What you consider a literary strength (environment killing invaders) I actually consider a plot weakness: you're invading an alien planet and you don't consider the effect that local life can have on your body? How did their civilization manage to survive martian diseases in the first place? Unless you're willing to believe that Mars in War of the Worlds can host intelligent life but not microscopic life, which sounds even more bizarre, considering that microbes on Earth are spread everywhere and can live in lava tunnels, extreme cold, or even suborbital space.   

I could also point quite a few sci-fi books where the authors/characters have considered the effect that microbes (or other life) have on the invaders/colonizers/explorers.

However, hard sci-fi is in a perpetual decline since about early 1970s...

Hmm, I could mention quite a few recent works like Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy that are hard sci-fi.

[Dioxine]

Hmm, I could mention quite a few recent works like Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy that are hard sci-fi.

Yeah or Stephen Baxter, damn that guy is good. Such books exist, they're just far less numerous that they once were, I think. And back in the day, everyone at least tried to aspire to be hard sci-fi (see Frank Herbert - he really tried, despite his scientific shortcomings, and it shows; I daresay a Dune-like book written today would have none of that sci-fi). Now most of what I seem to see are steampunk/bizarro curiosities, political fantasies with little integrity like Honor Harrington books, straight sci-fi war porn or no-sci-fi at all, there's more fantasy/horror than ever before.

Perhaps I am exaggerating but I've recently rewatched the full Stargate series. From quite ingenious (if oftentimes showing lack of actual knowledge) show that wasn't afraid to ask the right questions, to explore, to aspire to find some truth - to the disgrace which is Atlantis, all in the span of 10+ years, and it kinda left me with bad aftertaste.

Robinson is actually pretty good from the scientific point of view, but he sadly fails hard as a psychologist, and even harder as sociologist, making the books pretty much unreadable. Even Arthur C. Clarke's infamously crude characters were way better, by the simple virtue of acting, speaking and thinking like actual humans.

[Solarius Scorch]

Robinson is actually pretty good from the scientific point of view, but he sadly fails hard as a psychologist, and even harder as sociologist, making the books pretty much unreadable. Even Arthur C. Clarke's infamously crude characters were way better, by the simple virtue of acting, speaking and thinking like actual humans.

I read the book and hated it so much that I really had to make this post. I've read hundreds sci-fi novels, if not thousands, and I can say with a straight face that this one is my least favourite of all. Sure, the guy read a lot, but his characters - both individuals and societies - are about as human as Dwarf Fortress characters, except DF is a sim game and not a novel. In other words, his characters aren't even badly written, they're downright inhuman, and this won't do. I kind of dislike Dune for being cheaty (the author tried hard to come off as a sage, while his concepts were mostly pretty naive), but at least it was readable, coherent and understandable, and I could relate to the characters.

Literary preferences aside, I certainly agree that the sci-fi is in the gutters as a genre, declining both in quality and quantity. I don't even want to delve into why, and I have a few theories, but... well, it's sad.

[Hobbes]

Literary preferences aside, I certainly agree that the sci-fi is in the gutters as a genre, declining both in quality and quantity. I don't even want to delve into why, and I have a few theories, but... well, it's sad.

My theory regarding this is that as sci-fi has become more and more accepted by the masses (and authors willing to write in the genre) it expanded its boundaries beyond the niche that it used to be. The downside of massification is that you get a lot more garbage than before, the upside is that less people don't automatically think you're a freak when you mention that you like sci-fi.

[Solarius Scorch]

My theory regarding this is that as sci-fi has become more and more accepted by the masses (and authors willing to write in the genre) it expanded its boundaries beyond the niche that it used to be. The downside of massification is that you get a lot more garbage than before, the upside is that less people don't automatically think you're a freak when you mention that you like sci-fi.

But Godwin's law has applied to it for at least a century. Remember all those pulp sci-fi stories from the 30s, or movies from the 50s (which pretty much inspired X-Com)? Most of it was at sewer level, or at least not to be taken too seriously. Nevertheless, there was plenty good sci-fi literature too, because writers addressed all the niches. By contrast, today sci-fi is very much a ghetto literature which has little influence on general culture - as opposed to fantasy. And I like fantasy, don't get me wrong, but I wish sci-fi was at least as prominent as Game of Thrones or Tolkien.
Though I have to admit that sci-fi cinema is still holding up, and interesting movies are still being made.

[pilot00]

You're much exaggerating in saying that it was the 'only' sci-fi work that took environmental issues of space exploration into consideration. Actually I've seen nothing special in it, being raised on hard sci-fi where the biological problem was as natural as gravity or radiation; and produced challenges which had many creative solutions. However, hard sci-fi is in a perpetual decline since about early 1970s...

Well I might be not well informed, but I havent seen the specific factor in anything I remember reading or seeing. So....
For the time the matterial was published it was waaaaaaay ahead.

What you consider a literary strength (environment killing invaders) I actually consider a plot weakness: you're invading an alien planet and you don't consider the effect that local life can have on your body? How did their civilization manage to survive martian diseases in the first place? Unless you're willing to believe that Mars in War of the Worlds can host intelligent life but not microscopic life, which sounds even more bizarre, considering that microbes on Earth are spread everywhere and can live in lava tunnels, extreme cold, or even suborbital space.   

I could also point quite a few sci-fi books where the authors/characters have considered the effect that microbes (or other life) have on the invaders/colonizers/explorers.

Hmm, I could mention quite a few recent works like Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy that are hard sci-fi.

Yeh, it was a gapping plot hole, but at least someone braught it up. In most matterial people just go from planet to planet with no ill effect at all, whereas if you think about it, its not safe to visit even other certain parts of our own world (either for you or the natives). Needless to say I will find your book suggestions and read them.

Perhaps I am exaggerating but I've recently rewatched the full Stargate series. From quite ingenious (if oftentimes showing lack of actual knowledge) show that wasn't afraid to ask the right questions, to explore, to aspire to find some truth - to the disgrace which is Atlantis, all in the span of 10+ years, and it kinda left me with bad aftertaste.

Was I the only one that found the whole package shallow, repitetive and a bit cheezy?

see Frank Herbert - he really tried, despite his scientific shortcomings, and it shows; I daresay a Dune-like book written today would have none of that sci-fi).

Aspire been the keyword here, however much I loved the universe and the questions it possed, it was not even close to be considered technobable. Some of its things were outright ridiculous.

[the_third_curry]

By contrast, today sci-fi is very much a ghetto literature which has little influence on general culture - as opposed to fantasy. And I like fantasy, don't get me wrong, but I wish sci-fi was at least as prominent as Game of Thrones or Tolkien.

Yeah, aside from a few pop cultural phenomenons like Star Wars, sci-fi often does get marginalized. I know that even in this day, science fiction of any kind struggles to get academic recognition (at least in the United States), which is a pretty big deal considering that schools establish many people's ideas about what counts as good art or worthwhile literature. Even the biggest writers in the genre aren't immune; in my AP English class in high school a few years ago, one of my classmates wanted to write an essay on War of the Worlds and found out that not a single work by H.G. Wells was on the approved reading list - even the teacher was surprised.

I think it goes back to the New Critics of the 40s and 50s; they were big on drama and the classics, usually followed the "true art is angsty" school of thought, and disliked genres like fantasy, sci-fi, and anything that looked like Romanticism feeling that these genres were "low art" and lacked artistic merit. Over the years, fantasy and Romanticism (which are often closely related) have worked their way into pop culture and academia, so people are generally exposed to them, whereas stuff like sci-fi and anime/manga are still ghettoized and associated with various geeky subcultures.

Anyway, this topic is derailing pretty badly, maybe someone should create a sci-fi literature topic.

[Hobbes]

Yeah, aside from a few pop cultural phenomenons like Star Wars, sci-fi often does get marginalized.

Or becomes part of the current zeitgeist. The X-Files were a major success, even though many episodes were more of horror/suspense rather than sci-fi, and when XCom was published the theme of extraterrestrials and secret organizations was well present for tv viewers.

[the_third_curry]

Or becomes part of the current zeitgeist. The X-Files were a major success, even though many episodes were more of horror/suspense rather than sci-fi, and when XCom was published the theme of extraterrestrials and secret organizations was well present for tv viewers.

Interesting point. While not really sci-fi per say, there's also those various speculative fiction anthology shows that have aired over the years - the ones that use twist endings a lot (The Twilight Zone, The Outer Limits, Tales from the Darkside, etc.) The Twilight Zone especially has become imbedded in pop culture and to a much larger extent than most people realize. If you ever watch the original version with Rod Serling (which I would personally recommend; it's a great show), you'll be impressed by how many modern shows homage and/or rip it off to this day.

[kharille]

Well, I'm glad Gollop is still around to enjoy his success.  Would be horrible if he went the lovecraft way.  I hope he does another lasersquad game.  And hope he puts in the lawnmower and coffee machine... 

I can quote him, when I brought this up with him about the 2012 version he noted that they were 'not that sophisticated'... 

So what can a tablet do on an xcom battlefield?  What if everyone had mobile phones with built in torches and 4G telecom connections?

[Hobbes]

Well, I'm glad Gollop is still around to enjoy his success.  Would be horrible if he went the lovecraft way.  I hope he does another lasersquad game.  And hope he puts in the lawnmower and coffee machine... 

I asked him on an AMA on the /xcom subreddit if he ever considered going back to Rebelstar and he was quite surprised.

[pilot00]

Or becomes part of the current zeitgeist. The X-Files were a major success, even though many episodes were more of horror/suspense rather than sci-fi, and when XCom was published the theme of extraterrestrials and secret organizations was well present for tv viewers.

X-Files lost their footing IMHO, when they dabled in many different topics without following a coherent story. I mean the whole point of the series (or the vibe it wanted to convey) were the "aliens" and the Govermental cover up. While there were episodes (and whole seasons I might add) that had quite interesting stories outside this scope, when it started to show vampires, necromancers and satan it kinda lost me there.