Author Topic: What's up with the research spam?  (Read 2027 times)

Offline Stormtrooper

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2025, 08:09:11 pm »
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I honestly don't understand where this issue is coming from.

For me it's about not knowing stats of stuff I can use. I can use starting gear and check it on the wiki. I can't do the same for alien tech, but I can't use it too - it requires research and once it's done I can both equip and learn about the item.

But while I can fire that AK, I can't see whether it's any good in-game or for my particular use case. And I can't just research it, because early on it's a huge setback for overall research progress (that's a consequence of how it's done - since I already can use the item research reward is not worth it really, but then not being able to do so at all without research would be ridiculous). Acquisition research is enough - I feel like I should simply be able to tell what am I actually arming my people with.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2025, 08:11:04 pm by Stormtrooper »

Offline Yglorba

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2025, 09:42:34 pm »
The research time to identify most items is pretty low, and it does provide some benefit (it removes them from the pool of get one free results, which makes it more likely you'll get something valuable.)

Maybe just expanding on that a bit more could help - tossing a few good things into the get one free results for interrogations of relatively quick interrogation targets, plus a bunch more generic early-game stuff as whammies which you'd then benefit from researching. This is sort-of how illegal requisition lists work already, too.

Piratez leans more into this, where there are more easy-to-research people and much bigger get-one-free lists.  But ofc in Piratez it makes a lot more sense setting-wise because your gals don't know anything about anything at first - it perhaps doesn't make as much sense for X-Com agents to run around interrogating random people on the street to learn what a flashlight is.

Offline Juku121

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2025, 01:25:45 am »
And I can't just research it, because early on it's a huge setback for overall research progress
Would a reduction of research costs work to solve that for you? Something like 1-2 'research points' instead of 5 (acquisition is 2), 2-5 for more for pricier items that take 10+ now.

Offline psavola

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2025, 05:33:33 pm »
For me it's about not knowing stats of stuff I can use. I can use starting gear and check it on the wiki. I can't do the same for alien tech, but I can't use it too - it requires research and once it's done I can both equip and learn about the item.

But while I can fire that AK, I can't see whether it's any good in-game or for my particular use case. And I can't just research it, because early on it's a huge setback for overall research progress (that's a consequence of how it's done - since I already can use the item research reward is not worth it really, but then not being able to do so at all without research would be ridiculous). Acquisition research is enough - I feel like I should simply be able to tell what am I actually arming my people with.

This sounds a bit strange. You want to know information in-game, but you don't want to do the in-game thing (research) to get the information. Either get this information out-of-the-game (which is just fine but a little bit more effort) or just research what you need.

Actually the only guns you need until your research capacity is up to speed are shotgun, (possibly hunting rifle in the interim) and bolt action rifle. Possibly one handgun or SMG. I rarely use anything else. The next upgrade after that is Black Ops stuff or .308 sniper rifle, but at that point you already have at least 15 scientists, so you actually have some capacity to assign to minor researches. You don't need to use all that cultist junk so you don't need to research it either at first (except the ones the cultists know about in interrogation and it's chepear to get them by researching them directly).

Offline Stormtrooper

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2025, 08:16:21 pm »
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This sounds a bit strange. You want to know information in-game, but you don't want to do the in-game thing (research)

If you put it this way... But I see it like this: I can use that thing. Which means my agents do know how to use it. Once I equip it, I can even see TU costs and accuracy and types of shots, but somehow the article containing this info is hidden from me. This is the only case in the entire game where you don't have a wiki article available for something you CAN use.

And I can hardly agree with "but you don't really need all this cultist junk". I wouldn't call that AK rifle I scavenged long before promotion II a "junk I don't even need".

Offline psavola

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2025, 09:39:36 pm »
If you put it this way... But I see it like this: I can use that thing. Which means my agents do know how to use it. Once I equip it, I can even see TU costs and accuracy and types of shots, but somehow the article containing this info is hidden from me. This is the only case in the entire game where you don't have a wiki article available for something you CAN use.

No, it's not the only case. There are lots of equipment which you can use even if you haven't researched it yet. In in-game you just don't know the full details of how it works. As an example of possibly 'stranger' item take for example mass driver pistols, rifles, sniper rifles etc. It is apparently fully intentional game design that you unlock the mysteries of the item upon researching it (irrespective if you can use it "blind" or not; some you can, some you can't, and this is also apparently a modder decision).

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And I can hardly agree with "but you don't really need all this cultist junk". I wouldn't call that AK rifle I scavenged long before promotion II a "junk I don't even need".

I have played a dozen SH/IM campaigns. I recall only once, in one mission, using AKM or AK, maybe once or twice (as a test, actually), or anything similar. Clearly it's not a necessary item in the meaning that you can well do without it.

Let me expand on my answer to put it in context in case someone finds it useful how you can play the game effectively with very few cultist weapons:

- you want to research non-standard weapons and obtain 'shotgun' ASAP. It's the best very early shotgun, which can reliably one-shot weakly armored cultists with decent range (and deal with most environment alert monsters as well), and you can fit stun rounds into it (enabling easier captures and dealing with, for example, crop circle type missions).
- you can upgrade to double-barrel shotgun and sawed-off for zombie/environmental missions a bit later, or if you know you don't need captures, if you want. Especially against bigger zombie hordes these can be more useful than the regular shotgun.
- when you progress to dealing with safe houses, you will want a longer range gun which can produce good damage in one shot, preferably one-shot killing cultists even if they have some armor and shotgun would no longer work. In the recent update this one-shot-killing is all the more important, because it will prevent spotters from informing the snipers. The earliest weapon you can reliably get is hunting rifle, though its damage leaves much to be desired still.
- quite often rather soon you can upgrade to (or go straight to) bolt action rifle. This you can also reliably get without having to resort to cultist weapons. 30 damage + 0.15 dmg accuracy bonus  and 0.9 armor penetration is already rather good (though not perfect) for one-shot kills, if you have, let's say, 80+ accuracy.
- at the cult outpost stage, you should have promo II and be able to obtain sniper rifles. 308 cal is probably best, because with decent bravery, you don't need nowhere near maxed ACC to make decent shots. With sniper rifle stage, you can one-shot kill almost everyone, when you have 80+ ACC, except typically the best armored cultists (and red dawn, who have more HP)
- you will want to have a concealable pistol or SMG a bit later especially for certain undercover missions. Blops pistol is a good example, later to be replaced by smartpistol.

That's essentially all the guns you *need* until 1999. As for other weapons, of course you still want to have specialized ones such as:
 - a taser pistol
 - some melee weapons stunning and later killing
 - after promo II, a grenade launcher and/or MILKOR for stun batons (mostly for easier captures of cultist leaders/commanders etc.)
 - CAWS can be a useful upgrade to shotguns
 - tactical grenade launchers + gas grenades
 - for a couple of missions (rogue tanks etc), something like RPG launcher + anti-tank rockets.

So out of ~100(?) earth-based weapons, you just need ~10 and you're done.

Offline Stormtrooper

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2025, 10:36:48 pm »
Dunno why you brought up mass drivers, these have to be researched before you can use them (if not production then at least item itself) so it's not the same case as conventional firearms. Also the AK was only an example because that's what happened in my campaign a few months ago - I got one with a few mags so I used it for extra rifle firepower in a tough battle long before I could buy it.

And honestly I feel like you're completely missing the point - I admit I didn't read your detailed explanation of how "So out of ~100(?) earth-based weapons, you just need ~10 and you're done." - which is not something I normally do, but again, completely unrelated topics. The point I'm trying to make is it feels illogical to not know stats of common firearms I can already use without research, meanwhile you respond with "but you don't need them" - well, maybe in my playstle I do, or maybe I simply WANT to use them, just because I can. Or maybe I "don't need to use them", but enemies do and I want to see the stats of that revolver after I clicked that cultist with MMB.

P.S. At this point I don't even want to argue anymore or try to convince anyone that I'm right and all conventional guns should be available on the wiki right from the start, but I'd like to at least be understood - and explaining how I "don't need to use cultist guns" tells me currently I am not.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2025, 10:38:24 pm by Stormtrooper »

Offline Juku121

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2025, 11:26:57 pm »
Mass drivers can be used without research, you're probably confusing them with Gauss guns.

I do understand the desire to make numbers-based decisions, but I don't understand absolute reluctance to use research to figure out said numbers. I repeat my question: if research costs for basic mundane item research were lowered to acquisitions level or below, would that address the problem for you?

Offline psavola

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2025, 04:45:41 am »
Mass drivers can be used without research, you're probably confusing them with Gauss guns.

To be fair, using mass drivers without research was added in December 2024, so this has not always been the case. But this has been part of the game already for two major releases (3.6 and 3.7), which is why that at least from repeat player perspective I thought it was a useful example: https://github.com/SolariusScorch/XComFiles/commit/0d93125423cc49f65e42764c1d9c30ad819b62f5

Offline Juku121

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2025, 12:06:08 pm »
Hmm, I thought it had been the case for longer. Wasn't there something else that made mass drivers more accessible, or were they just bad all along before that change?

Offline Whatever

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2025, 03:05:48 pm »
IMHO weapon research is fine as is. I actually like it.

Also, as a relatively new player - what I found confusing in research were complex lists of various prerequisites for certain things like promotion 3. Weapon research is simple and self-explanatory, it just takes a lot of the screen if you ignore it because you're super-optimising your research queue.

And finally, I actually use quite a lot of weapons looted of cultists or found in boxes,, especially in the early game, partly because I focus early research on getting more scientists. But then I am just a noob who plays on veteran with demigod turned off  ;D

Offline Straker

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2025, 02:34:39 am »
Have some imagination op.  Item research includes intelligence about factions
Be torturing Red Dawn Ganger
“Tell us about your organization!”
“Uh, we use Makarov pistols”
“We know about Makarov pistols!”
“uh, there is this guy called…”

Research includes item specification for bureaucrats
Find crowbar
“Hey Quartermaster, we want to buy these”
“OK, but fill out the procurement paperwork first”

For me, the issue is
Get claim for veteran agent
Immediately halt all manufacture and switch engineers to process claim
I understand the need for game mechanics that require the player to spend resources to get better agents, but my engineers complain that this should be done by HR

Offline Stormtrooper

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2025, 03:24:57 pm »
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Research includes item specification for bureaucrats
Find crowbar
“Hey Quartermaster, we want to buy these”
“OK, but fill out the procurement paperwork first

That's what acquisition research is for, dunno why you have to research crowbar itself. Also "manufacturing" veteran claims is probably just a technical limitation of the game the mod is based on. If this was a standalone game then scientists and engineers would be for science and engineering projects only and you'd have dedicated departments for intelligence and bureaucracy.

Offline Juku121

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2025, 07:23:45 pm »
...dunno why you have to research crowbar itself.
Crowbar manufacturers most definitely do not conduct tests on how good their tool is at causing bodily injury. :P

Offline bananas

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Re: What's up with the research spam?
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2025, 06:18:46 pm »
Chiming in to say at first it does seem excessive and an artificial way to increase playing time but the in-universe explanation makes it make sense. It reminds me of season 1 of the Wire, which if you haven't seen it, go watch it's a great show. And if you have seen it, then you probably know exactly what I'm talking about :)