Psionics

[Stormtrooper]

So I've been using psionic amplifiers for a while and have mixed feelings... Even with 100 psi and 50 skill it "misses" more often than "hits". Add to this sanity and stun damage cost as well as quite a few TUs and it turns out to be less than what I imagined. Unfortunately psi training doesn't increase the skill past 50. And of course soldiers with 100+ are few and far in between, but come on, 70+ is something I'd consider solid skill and even at 50+ I'd expect some successes.

Distance probably plays a role in this since I had more luck with plain old skulljacks (which have melee range only), but if I have to get up close and personal why bother with amplifiers in the first place? Well, why use psionics at all if I can just have these unit fire a few shots and contribute a lot more to the victory? I know I can train my psi warriors by simply using the stuff regardless of outcome, but chance to hit seems to be very low even in case of extraordinarly talented units, panic is useless (you need a few attacks to actually achieve what it claims it does - even assuming every one lands I can usually kill the unit several times over in that amount of TUs) and mind control is even harder.

Currently fighting hybrid embassy and I did have quite a few mind controls so it's all fine, but it feels like it's because I'm going out of my way to use psi skills and I can afford that because cyberarmor makes hybrids quite harmless so I'm not risking much by playing cat and mouse.

By the way, are the formulas on xcom wiki correct or did the mod change them? And is there a submod or something that displays chance to hit with psi attacks? I feel like this small change would already go miles in terms of making it useful because I'd know whether I'm making a reasonable tactical choice or wasting TUs for 5% chance.

This whole mechanic is awesome, but I feel like I have to go out of my way and force myself to use it for little in return while I could just keep on blasting aliens the old fashioned way with far less risk to my soldiers.

[Solarius Scorch]

Well yeah, that's pretty much how I wanted it. Psi in vanilla is a no-brainer to the point of actively handicapping yourself if you don't use it. It's not a criticism, since it seems planned and has its place in vanilla, but XCF is a much longer mod, so if psi is available early, it can't be too good.

My goal was to keep psi powers more or less the same as in vanilla but make using them a strategy and not an obvious choice. I think I didn't do too badly on that front, but of course, I'm not the best person to judge.

AFAIR the mod did not change the formula, but did change some of the psi weapons' parameters, such as range.

[Nerro]

In my game, I had only a few soldiers dedicated to psionic (mostly hybrids).
They did not use their power often, but when they did, they were extremelly usefull.
Sure you could kill the alien, but with psi control, you can disable the alien for the next turn, scout, maybe kill a few other ones with it and use it to draw fire during the alien turn!

I think this is very well balanced in the mod. It has strong drawback but is very powerfull.

[Juku121]

Depends on what you mean by 'formula'. The overall logic is the same, but a lot of stats it's calculated off of are different. Most importantly, there's now a per-unit (or more precisely, per-armour) psi defence that's not even by default the original PST + PSK/5.

Stereo Psi Amp seems to scale wholly off of Psi Skill, too. And has very bad range and extra range penalties. And there's a whole bunch of other psi implements with their own quirks.

[psavola]

So I've been using psionic amplifiers for a while and have mixed feelings... Even with 100 psi and 50 skill it "misses" more often than "hits". Add to this sanity and stun damage cost as well as quite a few TUs and it turns out to be less than what I imagined. Unfortunately psi training doesn't increase the skill past 50. And of course soldiers with 100+ are few and far in between, but come on, 70+ is something I'd consider solid skill and even at 50+ I'd expect some successes.

Trying to do psionics with humans is essentially waste of time. It can work against very weak opponets (like minotaurs and hybrid assaults) but otherwise, except the end-game transformation, it is not that great.

If you want to make the mod very easy (even in SH/IM), the key is to:
 1) possibly get lucky with random hybrid defectors (if they get high PST, great, you get a good psionics resource early),
 2) try to do hybrid control center mission as soon as possible, so that you are able to recruit hybrids, so that you can recruit 50+ of them and keep the ~10 best of them (say, PST 80 or better); this should be enough for the rest of the game.

After that once you get your hybrid psionics force up and running, you can MC anything and the game is very easy.

[Stormtrooper]

Well yeah, that's pretty much how I wanted it. Psi in vanilla is a no-brainer to the point of actively handicapping yourself if you don't use it. It's not a criticism, since it seems planned and has its place in vanilla, but XCF is a much longer mod, so if psi is available early, it can't be too good.

My goal was to keep psi powers more or less the same as in vanilla but make using them a strategy and not an obvious choice. I think I didn't do too badly on that front, but of course, I'm not the best person to judge.

AFAIR the mod did not change the formula, but did change some of the psi weapons' parameters, such as range.

I understand, I don't expect OP psionics. And the more I think about it the more I realise maybe it isn't so bad, however it seems so because unlike when taking shots I don't see chance to hit. My guess it's impossible to implement on the mod side and is more of an oxce suggestion, but I think seeing the percentages would go a long way in terms of making psionics "a strategy". Also maybe it'd be a good idea to have successful panic attack do what it states aka render the target panicking on its turn instead of just lowering morale by a bit. Combined with easier difficulty compared to mind control would make it useful which in return would serve as a way to train skill while still contributing to the battle.

Sure you could kill the alien, but with psi control, you can disable the alien for the next turn, scout, maybe kill a few other ones with it and use it to draw fire during the alien turn!

And you think why do I even bother?  But too oftenit feels like just shooting it is the (only) correct tactical decision, doesn't matter that I have a maxed psi soldier ready, just pull the trigger and be done with it. At least I can tell my odds with the latter...

Trying to do psionics with humans is essentially waste of time. It can work against very weak opponets (like minotaurs and hybrid assaults) but otherwise, except the end-game transformation, it is not that great.

Well, the joke's on you because my best hybrid has like 80+ strength while I have a couple of humans nearly or even over 100. Also the problem with hybrids is their default built-in psi needs 60 TUs and given their physique it takes a lot of training to get them to even have that many TUs in one turn (yeah I know I can use amplifier as well, but then why their internal skill exists in the first place). Why would hybrids be inherently better? Some transformations aside, the only advantage seems to be them simply having better chance to roll decent strength.

I don't even want to make the mod very easy (should've picked up something else than beginner instead of panicking about losing after dozens of hours once the invasion starts ), I'm just trying to find a niche for mind control. So far, even hybrids with

say, PST 80 or better

were hardly reliable in this regard.

[Stone Lake]

skulljack

Has special formula for psi-attack, different from amps.

psi-amp

Yes, PSI-Atk decreases with distance - you can see the value decreasing like how accuracy does.
Maybe needs holding ALT.
Multiphased PSI-amp is often a go-to, as it's usually stronger (same formula, bigger coefficient).
Hybrid's innate PSI is inverse - weaker coefficient, so hybrids need a psi-amp too.

my best hybrid has like 80+ strength while I have a couple of humans nearly or even over 100

Your hybrids would've been stronger. The hybrids can have more PSK than humans (especially after trainings), like up to 80 was it?
Psi-attack is given by ~ PSK * PST, so 80 * 80 > 100 * 50 hybrids make better psionics.
In fact, "mature" hybrids can mind-control anything controllable, including ethereals and alien sectopods (mib sectopods are mechanical/uncontrollable).

Even weak (by "weak", I mean 100/50) psionics can reliably control psi-vulnerable enemies like mib grunts, hybrid girlies and mutons, thus yielding huge benefits on battlefield. Strong psionics trivialize many aspects of the game. E.g. scouting (via enemy psi-vision), drawing fire, doing/finishing assaults, capture of aliens - leading sectoids out from the UFO, etc. You can look up enemy stats (mainly PST) using mind probe or use wiki, to determine if it's worth it.

So, yeah, using PSI requires know-how and basically metagaming (or exhaustive in-game tinkering). If you're just doing casual playthrough, it probably isn't worth it, but it's OP when mastered.

P.S. You should never judge something "on paper" in X-Com, only test and see if it actually works for you. Unless you exhaustively know how each mechanic works.
P.S.2 I wrote a "raw" guide to PSI, but dropped it at some point...

[psavola]

Well, the joke's on you because my best hybrid has like 80+ strength while I have a couple of humans nearly or even over 100. Also the problem with hybrids is their default built-in psi needs 60 TUs and given their physique it takes a lot of training to get them to even have that many TUs in one turn (yeah I know I can use amplifier as well, but then why their internal skill exists in the first place). Why would hybrids be inherently better? Some transformations aside, the only advantage seems to be them simply having better chance to roll decent strength.

After all the transformations *), hybrids can get about or a bit over 100 PST and 100 PSK, while humans are restricted to 50 PSK (until the end). With 100/100, you can essentially MC (almost) anyone even from distance.

*) Sectoid legacy gives +10 PSK, Helix psion gives +10 PST and +20 PSK and Earthborn gives +5 PST.

I have never even tried using Hybrid's innate PSI but rather Psi-Amps. You can do up to 3 Psi-Amp MC attacks a turn if you have trained up TUs. And synthsuit is especially nice on hybrids for all the benefits, including TU, it gives.

[Juku121]

Multiphased PSI-amp is often a go-to, as it's usually stronger (same formula, bigger coefficient).

The formula is also different, scaling off psi-skill entirely (and the maximum coefficient is indeed higher). The thing's also got 3/4 the range of a regular Psi-Amp, so it's not all roses.

[Stone Lake]

The formula is also different, scaling off psi-skill entirely (and the maximum coefficient is indeed higher).

No, it's the same formula, with 0.024 coeff instead of 0.02 (0.014 for hybrids).
In ruleset, accuracyMultiplier: psi * 0.024, psi means psk * pst.

The thing's also got 3/4 the range of a regular Psi-Amp, so it's not all roses.

Sure. There's 2x range dropoff, but it doesn't matter much for good psionic.
Also, about 1.5-2x greater usage costs, which are mostly nil'd by eating nobelon.
Sometimes psi-amp has its uses when enemy is directly visible. Better choice for training psi in-battle, for one. Yet it's better just leave it to psi labs anyway. 

Compared to that, controlling through walls is often much more useful, so multi-amp ftw.

[Juku121]

psi means psk * pst.

My bad.

Hybrid psi also seems to have unlimited LoS, but how useful that is due to significantly lower power, IDK.