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Author Topic: EMP equipment and its damage  (Read 220 times)

Offline psavola

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EMP equipment and its damage
« on: February 29, 2024, 10:17:33 am »
On another note, the dependencies for EMP weapons are somewhat strange.

In real life, the existence of EMP has been well-documented for a long time, although I admit I do not know how and if it has been miniaturized for use of EMP grenades, for example. But I suppose being able to obtain or manufacture EMP weapons after Promo III in 1998-1999 timeframe should not really be a major issue.

In XCF getting EMP is gated through Jarhead investigation, which is dependent on Jarhead autopsy.The only two ways for you to initially get Jarheads is either through Jarhead terror mission (7 % chance starting month 20) or by raiding at least level 2 Dagon manor (the best chance, if you let one grow, but upgrades are also RNG-dependent). So all in all, without good RNG, you might be stuck for a long time without access to EMP. Which would make many things a lot more straightforward and also eventually enables capturing and repurposing sectopods, for example.

How to fix this? If the dependencies are not completely restructured, my other suggestion would be to create two mission scripts: jarheadTerrorEarly and jarheadTerrorLate, like with many other similar instances. The first would have a higher trigger rate, like 20 or 25 % with STR_JARHEAD_INVESTIGATION: false. The latter would have lower percentage, such as 5 % or less, with STR_JARHEAD_INVESTIGATION: true. That way, like in numerous other instances, the probability of initial jarhead encounters would be increased until you have gone forward with the jarhead research.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 10:54:30 am by psavola »

Offline Akamashi

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Re: EMP equipment and its damage
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2024, 03:12:47 pm »
On another note, the dependencies for EMP weapons are somewhat strange.

In real life, the existence of EMP has been well-documented for a long time, although I admit I do not know how and if it has been miniaturized for use of EMP grenades, for example. But I suppose being able to obtain or manufacture EMP weapons after Promo III in 1998-1999 timeframe should not really be a major issue.

In XCF getting EMP is gated through Jarhead investigation, which is dependent on Jarhead autopsy.The only two ways for you to initially get Jarheads is either through Jarhead terror mission (7 % chance starting month 20) or by raiding at least level 2 Dagon manor (the best chance, if you let one grow, but upgrades are also RNG-dependent). So all in all, without good RNG, you might be stuck for a long time without access to EMP. Which would make many things a lot more straightforward and also eventually enables capturing and repurposing sectopods, for example.

How to fix this? If the dependencies are not completely restructured, my other suggestion would be to create two mission scripts: jarheadTerrorEarly and jarheadTerrorLate, like with many other similar instances. The first would have a higher trigger rate, like 20 or 25 % with STR_JARHEAD_INVESTIGATION: false. The latter would have lower percentage, such as 5 % or less, with STR_JARHEAD_INVESTIGATION: true. That way, like in numerous other instances, the probability of initial jarhead encounters would be increased until you have gone forward with the jarhead research.

I was also naive and thought to take the sectopod with emp devices. It's a pity that it won't work in reality.

Offline psavola

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Re: EMP equipment and its damage
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2024, 03:41:34 pm »
I was also naive and thought to take the sectopod with emp devices. It's a pity that it won't work in reality.

At least some have made it work in reality, see for example the tactics against MIB strike ship here: https://youtu.be/f3oDM_t8gV8?si=vxWs_IkfHgTt8BoA&t=1352

The problem seems to be more that you may need to avoid over-EMPing them so that they get stunned, not die off.

Offline Akamashi

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Re: EMP equipment and its damage
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2024, 04:23:39 pm »
At least some have made it work in reality, see for example the tactics against MIB strike ship here: https://youtu.be/f3oDM_t8gV8?si=vxWs_IkfHgTt8BoA&t=1352

The problem seems to be more that you may need to avoid over-EMPing them so that they get stunned, not die off.
When I did this against the Ethereal sectopod, 5 mines did not cause any damage to the sectopod.

Offline Juku121

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Re: EMP equipment and its damage
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2024, 04:42:11 pm »
I just tried a quick battle, and this is the result. The MiB robot stepped on three mines and then went to sleep. So either EMP was less potent when you tried (don't know if it ever was?), or you got unlucky.

I don't know how Stone Lake managed to one-hit both his targets, though.

Edit: OK, he seems to have been quite lucky. (100 power * 50-150% damage roll * 35% damage resistance - 90 under armour * 25% armour efficiency) * (100% HP and 400% stun) * 4 (big unit) = (35 average - 22.5) * 5 4 * 4 =  200 (range of 0-480) vs 96 health, it's something like 20% chance to happen twice in a row. Edit: So very likely to stun, yeah.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 09:04:41 pm by Juku121 »

Offline Akamashi

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Re: EMP equipment and its damage
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2024, 07:22:36 pm »
I just tried a quick battle, and this is the result. The MiB robot stepped on three mines and then went to sleep. So either EMP was less potent when you tried (don't know if it ever was?), or you got unlucky.

I don't know how Stone Lake managed to one-hit both his targets, though.

Edit: OK, he seems to have been quite lucky. (100 power * 50-150% damage roll * 35% damage resistance - 90 under armour * 25% armour efficiency) * (100% HP and 400% stun) = (35 average - 22.5) * 5 =  77.5 (range of 0-150) vs 96 health, it's something like 20% chance to happen twice in a row.
Its looking smart.

Offline psavola

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Re: EMP equipment and its damage
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2024, 08:22:27 pm »
Edit: OK, he seems to have been quite lucky. (100 power * 50-150% damage roll * 35% damage resistance - 90 under armour * 25% armour efficiency) * (100% HP and 400% stun) = (35 average - 22.5) * 5 =  77.5 (range of 0-150) vs 96 health, it's something like 20% chance to happen twice in a row.

I didn't quite follow what the "* 5" at the end was, but please note that area affects essentially affect 2x2 units four times (in a slightly different manner on each tile it holds, if the are effect decreases from the center point), which should probably lead to a significantly higher effectiveness compared to a normal calculation that applies to 1x1 units.

Offline Juku121

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Re: EMP equipment and its damage
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2024, 08:58:50 pm »
Oh, yeah, forgot that. :-[ And the x5 was also wrong, should be x4 for stun since only the best damage matters, stun and health don't stack. So it's more like 4 * 4 * 12.5 = 200 on average, more than enough to stun. Overstun, even. Are Sectopods immune to overstun? They don't even seem to have custom recovery values, so I'd guess they are.

Anyway, I tried a few more times, and 4/6 times the black Sectopod went to sleep from just one EMP mine. I suppose the difference from the average is because not all squares get hit point-blank. Possible none, even.

Edit: Then again, EMP mines have FixRadius, so they supposedly do full damage in the whole radius? Not really sure, maybe it was just the small sample size.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 09:01:24 pm by Juku121 »

Offline Mathel

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Re: EMP equipment and its damage
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2024, 09:10:17 pm »
Two more things.
1) Explosives only hit under armor on their own tile and tiles next to them. So one or two tiles of the sectopode will be hit in the under armor, (depending on positioning), but the rest will be hit in either front or side armor.

2) The *5 for stunning was correct. Stun and health are dealt separately, each from a different side of the health bar.
Anyways, by my calculations, the median damage per tile hit from Under is 12.5 Health and 50 Stun. For
Rear (not going to happen), it's 10 Health, 40 Stun.
Side is 2.5 Health and 7.5 Stun
Front has a 1/101 chance of doing 1 Stun, median is 0.

These are medians. Average is going to be higher, because all the hits that by caculation would do negative damge do 0 instead.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 09:23:11 pm by Mathel »

Offline Juku121

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Re: EMP equipment and its damage
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2024, 10:11:48 pm »
The Sectopod can have the mine thrown under them. I think that was what happened in the video? It definitely was what happened in my tests. So depending on where the Sectopod decides to go, all four might hit the under armour, and if not, rear can be hit, too.

The stun+health thing was indeed right and then wrong. :-[ I'm clearly not on the ball tonight.

I suppose this mostly explains everything except how Akamashi managed to throw five mines and not get results. I imagine my three in the initial test were influenced by front armour and perhaps the sloped terrain.