Battle Rifles all the way

[mg2k22]

So it‘s already 1999 and my average rifleman /-woman still proudly carries a FN FAL into battle.

Sure, „heavy“ enemies are seen more often as of lately. But for these encountrers, I always have one or two Blackops-or Tactical Snipers in my squad. At the moment, I could upgrade to Blackops Rifles with 40 damage and 15% armor bypass but my 50 years old battle rifles do about 37-40 (with experienced infantry - rookies don‘t fight the tough fights anyway) and 10% armor bypass as well at a much cheaper price so why bother? Besides, I only recently „found“ enough Tritanium to be able to sustainably equip those fancy bullets and I‘d much rather manufacture Cyber Amor and one or two Thunderstorms instead. So I‘ll most likely skip the very few damage points modern Tritanium rifles would give me and (hopefully soon) upgrade from 1950ies heavy rifles to laser rifles directly.

Or is my reasoning off? Please enlighten me if I missed somerhing oder miscalculated!

[Juku121]

The marginal usefulness of BO rifles as upgrades and the scarcity of alloy bullets when they matter are topics that have been brought up before. Several times, in fact.

Vs the FN-FAL, damage is mostly a wash, accuracy is marginally higher, except for snap shots, but the higher snap range makes up for it. Still, not a significant difference. There are somewhat better TU costs (potential for four snaps a turn), the extra 5% armour reduction, and you can stuff an extra grenade in your pocket. Ultimately, not really worth the hassle and Tritanium.

The Smartrifle is where the real BO rifle is at. It's got probably the best combination of TU/accuracy values of any rifle, lots of ammo and long bursts. The damage isn't all that hot, but you've got other weapons for that, as you said.

[CaptainVietnam]

Fal Is Meh G11 is where the real money is before smart guns show up. As for smart guns, I use the Black Ops Smartgun over the Smart Rifle. 

I don't use much riffles; however, I tend to just use cyber armor guys with smart handguns, explosives, and deep axes. Since you can't have much cyber armor from a lack of alloy early on, I tend to just solo everything with the few sets of armor I have while the others cover the ship.


As for tritanium ammo, just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist; it ain't worth the cost or time involved in getting it. I tend to just sell the ammo. If I run into any, it would be a chore to put any effort into using it in its current state. It would be better to make armor or other tools.

[mg2k22]

Had a closer look at the BO Smartrifle. TU cost is nice indeed, two aimed shots from a static position with excellent accuracy is a winner. Like an AKSU with FAL-like penetration power, and excessive clip size so my Agents don‘t need to carry spare clips. I might make that investment.

As for the HK G11 - what‘s supposed to be that good about it? Damage 22 + 0.1x bravery looks weak to me…

[CaptainVietnam]

Had a closer look at the BO Smartrifle. TU cost is nice indeed, two aimed shots from a static position with excellent accuracy is a winner. Like an AKSU with FAL-like penetration power, and excessive clip size so my Agents don‘t need to carry spare clips. I might make that investment.

As for the HK G11 - what‘s supposed to be that good about it? Damage 22 + 0.1x bravery looks weak to me…

it does 56 damage on 60 bravery guys (or a number close to that), 50 round mags, great auto shot range of 15 means you can and should always auto shot with it (I always always auto shot with it). 15 armor effectiveness. it is a close to med range beast that can shoot at long range if needed.

the fal has bad auto shots but shines at snaps and is better for med to long range. low ammo count of 20 (less then g11),  Armor Effectiveness is 10% (Less then g11). The fal is more of a sniper but with less power and weaker armor penetration everything it shines at is something better suited for a sniper.  so why not just use a sniper instead?

on top of all that g11 has better dps based on its best shot choice
3 auto shots at X56 is better then lets say 3 snaps at x72

all that being said tho black ops auto sniper beats everything. 

[sudtrap]

You guys are forgetting the ultimate noob stick. The UAC Rifle.
Now THAT's a rifle. And tritanium ammo is absolutely worth it.

I did come to the conclusion today that the BO Rifle is better than most of the available rifles in Promotion II. They are very expensive for that little bit of extra oomph; however I'd point out that sometimes that little extra accuracy or damage is what saves an agents life.

[psavola]

I've never used rifles much. Typically you'd prefer to kill of enemies at a longer range or with grenade launchers (TAC or grenades). For me, this has come up most in close quarters missions - let's say zombie catacombs, spidernest underground, Black Lotus HQ and Exalt HQ. In those kinds of missions you need to be able to do many reaction snapshots and occasionally also shoot at a slightly longer range as well.

In this kind of context, a weapon like BO pistol or later smartpistol is suprisingly good because you get off so many accurate shots. It only doesn't have armor penetration and an auto mode, which you'd like to have if you fear the enemy unit reaction shots. Macro SMG also delivers a big punch but getting it early depends on luck. At a later date, MAGMA Pulse rifle and chem clips is a killer: aimed shot at an unlimited distance or four snapshots. If the enemies are armored, an early UAC chaingun is also suprisingly good in BL/Exalt HQ like missions where reactions are not really that important.

[Juku121]

The G11 only does ~60 damage if BO rifles and FALs do 80, because that's maximum damage. But if you get a well-commended agent, then 160-180 bravery is very much achievable by mid-game, and then they do mostly the same damage as BO rifles or the various 7.62x51 rifles.

What the G11 has going for it is a very fast and accurate auto-shot. You can shoot it auto at more or less the same distance as everything else's snap range. The aimed shot is a bit worse, though. So if you can stack the necessary commendations, it's competitive with other top-end ballistic rifles and perhaps even better considering it can hit multiple times per shot.

The two actual BO rifles are indeed upgrades, but so marginal that replacing your whole arsenal is usually more hassle than it's worth. I like their aesthetic, so I do use them, but then again I also mod them further. 


The UAC rifle I don't like. It essentially shoots a slighly faster, somewhat less accurate auto-shot (kinda like auto-and-snap-shot all in one), and pays for it with weight, poorer accuracy in general, and ammo that costs a lot. Where it shines compared to the other rifles is close combat, but the G11 in a good agent's hands does so as well, and is noticeably better at range. A Smartrifle has 5-shot autofire, which is a different way to do the same thing, and much better and more flexible snaps and aimed shots. And you have a plethora of other close-medium range weapons that do better than any rifle, so this niche is moot anyway.


The BO Auto-Sniper is good, but doesn't have the TU-flexibility or the autofire accuracy of the rifles. Never really liked it, perhaps I should reconsider.


In the end, though, what psavola says is true. The niche rifles occupy in RL combat is not particularly well modeled in the mod (or other weapons are made stronger than they should be, and thus take the rifles' spot), and once you have more than a few agents, you can specialise and do better than with even the best rifles. Never mind all the oddball weapons that eat other weapons' lunch.

[mg2k22]

the fal has bad auto shots but shines at snaps and is better for med to long range. low ammo count of 20 (less then g11),  Armor Effectiveness is 10% (Less then g11). The fal is more of a sniper but with less power and weaker armor penetration everything it shines at is something better suited for a sniper.  so why not just use a sniper instead?

Versatility. My troopers can hit accurate long range aimed shots (my preffered choice) but also go into closer quarters, say storm an UFO, with the same weapon.

on top of all that g11 has better dps based on its best shot choice
3 auto shots at X56 is better then lets say 3 snaps at x72

Multiple hits at ~30 are NOT better than one hit at ~40 when your target is a Red Dawn Coordinator or a Cyberweb Robot. Sure, there‘s always other ways to take these beefier early game opponents out, but yet again: Versatility. With most of my squad equppied with battle rifles, all of them are capable of dealing real damage to virtually any enemy in 1997 and 1998.

[CaptainVietnam]

Versatility. My troopers can hit accurate long range aimed shots (my preffered choice) but also go into closer quarters, say storm an UFO, with the same weapon.

Multiple hits at ~30 are NOT better than one hit at ~40 when your target is a Red Dawn Coordinator or a Cyberweb Robot. Sure, there‘s always other ways to take these beefier early game opponents out, but yet again: Versatility. With most of my squad equppied with battle rifles, all of them are capable of dealing real damage to virtually any enemy in 1997 and 1998.

you ain't meant to keep the g11 all game it's just the best option (riffle wise at least) till you reach smart guns. You don't have to use it play however you like. It just seems counter productive to me  to use FAL instead of other better options.

most enemies pre invasion can be killed with a glock. stacking rate of fire to cancel out 0 damage rolls is just a better option. If it was all about damage then light cannon would be good instead of the 0 damage roll, inaccurate, smelly gun that it is.  (every time I try it does 0 dmg to cultist whenever it hits this gun needs 50-200 rolls sniper has).

as for cyberweb bots I use them as melee practice. Deep one hatchet is bonkers trust me use them. 12 tu for triple digit damage (150+ I think) and high accuracy guys who are trained can hit at like 90 accuracy. That's why they get smart pistols melee is crazy mid game.  If you put any effort into it.

edit if you don't have enough axes when you reach cyber web lairs use machete it can still get job done less one shots though. don't try to melee unless you have at least a heavy tac vest for best results even with -15 melee the machete and axe are good.

[Juku121]

If all you do is auto-shot, you could just as well use one of the BO light machine guns. Comparable accuracy, more damage, especially with alloy bullets, full autofire for close range. Probably one less auto-shot per turn though. And if not, you need either a groomed agent or something else for the long-range shots.

Also, if you're concerned about zero damage rolls, why are you recommending machetes? The humble starter combat knife has 50-150% rolls instead of 0-200%, almost the same TU costs, better accuracy and no armor-penetration penalty.

[CaptainVietnam]

If all you do is auto-shot, you could just as well use one of the BO light machine guns. Comparable accuracy, more damage, especially with alloy bullets, full autofire for close range. Probably one less auto-shot per turn though. And if not, you need either a groomed agent or something else for the long-range shots.

Also, if you're concerned about zero damage rolls, why are you recommending machetes? The humble starter combat knife has 50-150% rolls instead of 0-200%, almost the same TU costs, better accuracy and no armor-penetration penalty.

I use the Smartgun when unlocked so yeah.  I skip the black ops version since it just to heavy to bring ammo and other tools with you smart version is just better and I usually get cyber armor soon after so I just wait till then. as for the melee.

tested on 62 melee unit with nothing on

      time unit cost
machete  combat knife
6 tu               7tu

        damage
machete  combat knife
0-84         21-64

    chance to hit
machete  combat knife
64%           52%

there was armor effectiveness but I guess it don't matter since I was slicing up bots with it lol. It just boils down to machete being more accurate even with heavy tac vest equip and that's when melee training starts for my guys.  I think combat knife dips into the 40% hit chance
 range with heavy tac vest. 

[Juku121]

You don't get Smartguns until quite a while after FALs and G11s, while the regular BO LMG is available at roughly the same time. Yes, the smartweapons are much better, but this is about what to upgrade to at a specific time.

    chance to hit
machete  combat knife
64%           52%

You must have tested this on a mediocre agent with ~60 melee or so. 75 melee is where these become equal, and then the knife scales both accuracy and damage off skill. My mid-game agents had 99% vs 120%. For non-melee specialists, machetes are indeed more accurate. At least the bots don't dodge.

Armour effectiveness very much matters against the bigger bots: ~40 average damage * 1.4 (resistance) - ~30  armour * 1.2 = ~20 damage on average for the machete, ~26 for the knife. A bot has 55 health, you have a noticeably higher chance of two-shotting these on average.

And there's of course the fact that this was about reliable non-zero damage, which is what the knife delivers.

[CaptainVietnam]

You don't get Smartguns until quite a while after FALs and G11s, while the regular BO LMG is available at roughly the same time. Yes, the smartweapons are much better, but this is about what to upgrade to at a specific time.
You must have tested this on a mediocre agent with ~60 melee or so. 75 melee is where these become equal, and then the knife scales both accuracy and damage off skill. My mid-game agents had 99% vs 120%. For non-melee specialists, machetes are indeed more accurate. At least the bots don't dodge.

Armour effectiveness very much matters against the bigger bots: ~40 average damage * 1.4 (resistance) - ~30  armour * 1.2 = ~20 damage on average for the machete, ~26 for the knife. A bot has 55 health, you have a noticeably higher chance of two-shotting these on average.

And there's of course the fact that this was about reliable non-zero damage, which is what the knife delivers.

large ammo supply and relatively light g11 18 pounds for 100 rounds is nice to have. it keeps me from upgrading since before heavy tac vest I spam more frags to counter sniper/spotter so I almost have no need to do so until smart.

as for the melee I said " if you don't have enough axes when you reach cyber web lairs use machete it can still get job done" so its more of a training tool around the time I get heavy tac vest I don't use it past 65 melee I especially don't use it If I have enough deep one axes. maybe Ill use combat knife again once I reach the upper levels of melee to try it out as backup but I usually can Field 15 axe boys far before then. alloy knives are also a thing so It's no wonder I ignore combat knife probably still will If rng gives me enough alloy or axes before mid game.

Machete is great for training guys before you get martial arts training. since untrained folks can still swing at 60% range I will still use machete over the knife 50% knife or lower (heavy tac vest 40%) more swings to kill gives me more chance at melee xp its a win win.

[Juku121]

Sure, the G11 is good. It's just not as versatile as some other options, and has better specialised competitors in the close-to-medium range niche it excels at.


If we're taking alloy blades into account, both alloy knives and swords are better than machetes and aqua-axes.

Machetes are indeed something to use when your agents lack skill, but mine generally don't by the time I'm facing regular Cyberweb missions. And if you don't have enough of whatever your favourite melee weapon is, but have the skill, there are quite a few better alternatives than the machete.


I also favour Battle Axes over plastic ones, since these do much better when there's something really armoured that needs to die now. The bigger ones are too clumsy, the smaller ones might be too weak.