Sniper and Spotter Explanation/Red Dawn Help?

[Psidius]

Hi, love this mod, but I'm getting a little frustrated trying to understand the rules for Snipers and Spotters, which seems to be a big deal with Red Dawn.

Right now, I'm trying to do a Red Dawn Cult Outpost level, and I just can't seem to figure out what the rules are for when the Red Dawn can shoot at me.

I've landed at night, and as far as I am aware, none of the Red Dawn soldiers at this level have night vision beyond 9 (10 for the Pioneers.)

In addition, per the Wiki, Gangers are only Spotters, not Snipers.

Why is it that even Gangers can shoot at me, even though they can't see me and I haven't used my guns?

For instance, on the first turn after I land, I have one of my dogs attack and kill an enemy that spawned right next to my helicopter. None of my soldiers use their guns. On the enemy turn, one or two gangers outside of visual range then shoot at me.

Is it that if my troops are seen at all, or kill anyone, that they can all be seen?

I'd really appreciate an explanation so that I can do better in planning out any missions against the Red Dawn or other factions that use this mechanic.

[Juku121]

The biggest problem is that once you hit a spotter, you're spotted. No matter the distance, cover or lighting.

It's also true that once you kill someone, or get seen even once, all aliens enemies have a number of turns (depending on their 'intelligence' stat) where they know your location. That includes being seen by your own mind-controlled units, or having an enemy expire from wounds/flames three turns after the fact.

But being 'seen' is not being 'spotted'. They know where you are, and might move closer, but they can't snipe you.

What exactly is going on with the Gangers, I don't know. Most likely, you're misjudging their vision or who exactly is shooting at you. Your agents aren't lit up in any way, are they? Flares in the 'trunk', is there perhaps still an armour with lots of personal light, etc? I tried a quick test battle with a helicopter and a RD outpost, and all the Gangers were just milling around near my landing site, one even had a visual but decided to come closer to melee. The ranged fire was from either Sailors or Pioneers, no exceptions.

For a more precise answer, you could post a save with the battle and say which enemies are shooting at you that you think should not be.



Of course, if you're playing BOXCE, all bets are off.



X-Com and by extension OXCE aren't really good as or designed to be stealth games, and modders shoehorning whatever tools they're given to fit their vision doesn't always produce particularly transparent gameplay effects.

[psavola]

Right now, I'm trying to do a Red Dawn Cult Outpost level, and I just can't seem to figure out what the rules are for when the Red Dawn can shoot at me.

If you want any consolation, the red dawn outpost mission can be one of the trickiest ones in the game (if you play ironman and higher difficulties). This is because you usually have only access to helicopter and so few troops and you might not even have access to grenades (to avoid sniper/spotter) unless you have been successful in getting all the cult networks and other requirements of promo II. (You definitely shouldn't even try to complete it successfully unless you have grenades or you spawn in a city where you can use the cover of buildings.)

Many times I've just decided to immediately abort the mission and wait for a better spawn. Also many times if a sailor has spawned nearby, I've just focused on capturing it, getting back to the helicopter and running away.

[CaptainVietnam]

stay in the dark and Throw grenades they don't trigger the goofy sniper/spotter mechanic. try placing snipers far away as possible if you do shoot to avoid getting shot. Kill off key targets and  avoid shooting to much with the snipers they will inevitably get shot. everyone and their mother is a sniper on red dawn besides the lowest rank guys. So don't bother with smoke. make a ring of light around lz and never leave it stay in dark.

use riot shields with frags  until you get your hands on heavy tac vest. then you wont have to play so careful. I usually take down red dawn first Because I just hate the play style you need to fight them them without heavy losses.

Sniper/Spotter is basically an AI cheat. If you shoot anyone or get seen who is a spotter the snipers can see you no matter were you are. for a turn or more depends on enemy.  they will shoot you through walls if thin enough farm (mib missions). they will also throw frags (if spotted) if they don't have a clear shot at you so try and hide under something or use a wall to avoid that they still know your location but at least you don't get frag thrown at you.

You will recognize who has sniper/spotter after some time and learn to play against it good luck.

[Psidius]

The biggest problem is that once you hit a spotter, you're spotted. No matter the distance, cover or lighting.

It's also true that once you kill someone, or get seen even once, all aliens enemies have a number of turns (depending on their 'intelligence' stat) where they know your location. That includes being seen by your own mind-controlled units, or having an enemy expire from wounds/flames three turns after the fact.

But being 'seen' is not being 'spotted'. They know where you are, and might move closer, but they can't snipe you.

What exactly is going on with the Gangers, I don't know. Most likely, you're misjudging their vision or who exactly is shooting at you. Your agents aren't lit up in any way, are they? Flares in the 'trunk', is there perhaps still an armour with lots of personal light, etc? I tried a quick test battle with a helicopter and a RD outpost, and all the Gangers were just milling around near my landing site, one even had a visual but decided to come closer to melee. The ranged fire was from either Sailors or Pioneers, no exceptions.

For a more precise answer, you could post a save with the battle and say which enemies are shooting at you that you think should not be.



Of course, if you're playing BOXCE, all bets are off.



X-Com and by extension OXCE aren't really good as or designed to be stealth games, and modders shoehorning whatever tools they're given to fit their vision doesn't always produce particularly transparent gameplay effects.

I'd attach a save, but I didn't save the actual start of the battle and loading from the Geoscape seems to be giving me an entirely different seed. I wasn't using any lighting and all of my guys were using kevlar vests. So I guess it will always be a mystery why the gangers seemed to be shooting at me from beyond visual range.

So, to clarify, if I hit an enemy with the spotter attribute, does that mean that all snipers can now shoot at my soldier regardless of any other circumstances? But if an enemy just dies, this does not enable enemy sniping (just that they might move towards my location)?

Is my soldier who hit the enemy the only one who can be seen, or are all of my soldiers now seen?

If I shoot at the enemy but don't hit them, does this trigger the spotter/sniper mechanic in any way?

Are there any other circumstances under which an enemy can snipe me, aside from hitting an enemy?

If you want any consolation, the red dawn outpost mission can be one of the trickiest ones in the game (if you play ironman and higher difficulties). This is because you usually have only access to helicopter and so few troops and you might not even have access to grenades (to avoid sniper/spotter) unless you have been successful in getting all the cult networks and other requirements of promo II. (You definitely shouldn't even try to complete it successfully unless you have grenades or you spawn in a city where you can use the cover of buildings.)

Many times I've just decided to immediately abort the mission and wait for a better spawn. Also many times if a sailor has spawned nearby, I've just focused on capturing it, getting back to the helicopter and running away.

This seems like this would be good advice for me to follow, but I'm terribly pig-headed; I'll keep going to Exobiological Contamination missions even though I know darn well that nothing good is going to come of it. So I'll most likely keep giving the Red Dawn Outpost missions my best shot. 

stay in the dark and Throw grenades they don't trigger the goofy sniper/spotter mechanic. try placing snipers far away as possible if you do shoot to avoid getting shot. Kill off key targets and  avoid shooting to much with the snipers they will inevitably get shot. everyone and their mother is a sniper on red dawn besides the lowest rank guys. So don't bother with smoke. make a ring of light around lz and never leave it stay in dark.

use riot shields with frags  until you get your hands on heavy tac vest. then you wont have to play so careful. I usually take down red dawn first Because I just hate the play style you need to fight them them without heavy losses.

Sniper/Spotter is basically an AI cheat. If you shoot anyone or get seen who is a spotter the snipers can see you no matter were you are. for a turn or more depends on enemy.  they will shoot you through walls if thin enough farm (mib missions). they will also throw frags (if spotted) if they don't have a clear shot at you so try and hide under something or use a wall to avoid that they still know your location but at least you don't get frag thrown at you.

You will recognize who has sniper/spotter after some time and learn to play against it good luck.

I haven't gotten to Promotion II; is there any easy way to get them in the meantime, other than sheer luck? I've tried melee, too, but it seems to be an even worse idea than shooting the enemy.

[Juku121]

So, to clarify, if I hit an enemy with the spotter attribute, does that mean that all snipers can now shoot at my soldier regardless of any other circumstances?

Yep. That and getting seen by a spotter right from the start are the two big things that make enemy snipers a pain.

Well, they do get the 50% accuracy penalty (I don't think anyone fields PSG-1's against X-Com?) to actually hit your agents, but since the enemies usually greatly outnumber you, some bullets will eventually find their mark.

But if an enemy just dies, this does not enable enemy sniping (just that they might move towards my location)?

Well, you could get hit by mind control as well due to being just 'seen'. And AI movement is not really terribly predictable, but they do drop out of their 'patrol' behaviour when they know you're there.

Is my soldier who hit the enemy the only one who can be seen, or are all of my soldiers now seen?

Only the one who hit them. And it needs to be a 'projectile', which leads to the tactics used by some veterans and recommended in the above post: grenades do not count as 'projectiles', have long range and much better accuracy than starter firearms.

So, you may get 'seen' because you killed them, but you don't get 'spotted' for snipers.

If I shoot at the enemy but don't hit them, does this trigger the spotter/sniper mechanic in any way?

Nope. Near misses with explosive ammo, like Light/Heavy Cannons, also do not count if they're just in the explosive radius, but the projectile itself doesn't hit them. It's kinda hard to almost-hit enemies, though.

Are there any other circumstances under which an enemy can snipe me, aside from hitting an enemy?

You've been seen by a spotter. Or you're playing BOXCE.

There's also enemies with night vision and infravision, which might seem like sniping occasionally. But since most enemies don't have nearly as much NV as sniper-spotter provides, that's largely moot.

I'd attach a save, but I didn't save the actual start of the battle and loading from the Geoscape seems to be giving me an entirely different seed.

Autosave?

But if you encounter such a situation again and want to discuss it in detail, do remember to make a save.

I wasn't using any lighting and all of my guys were using kevlar vests. So I guess it will always be a mystery why the gangers seemed to be shooting at me from beyond visual range.

Are you sure it was actually the Gangers? With it being dark and all?

Otherwise, yeah, don't really know what might have been going on.

...is there any easy way to get them in the meantime, other than sheer luck? I've tried melee, too, but it seems to be an even worse idea than shooting the enemy.

Don't melee, run up to them and stay put, hoping you beat them in CQC. Or at least reserve some energy for the attempts. Dogs are pretty amazing for that, and cheaper than agents.

[psavola]

Heavy Tactical Suits are Promo-III, so they require killing off a cult and one of alternative other prerequisites. Armored Vests are Promo-II and increase your durability compared to Kevlar Vests, especially if you are facing the right direction (and having a shield). But the more important thing to deal is to get grenades. You can loot some of them from the cultists, so they are precious before you get Promo-II and the explosives license.

This is getting OT but IMHO Black Lotus is by far the easiest cult to terminate. Many lower-level cultists are not even spotters and don't wear much armor. You don't need to clear the Forward Base to get to their HQ, but rather can get the capture from a much easier mission (The Root of All Evil), where there are no invisible enemies and the footmen have no grenades (in contrast to other missions). And the HQ mission is easy as long as you have enough dogs and/or rats for enemy detection.

On others: Exalt HQ is also not too bad, if you take the time to manage the maze (and have rats), but even the smallest mistakes in outpost/forward base are fatal (with so many enforcers with napalm grenade launchers). Dagon HQ has nasty enemies, especially gillman terrorists, which wreck you - best to take this last (= after Promo III), once you have tactical grenade launcher with gas grenades and you can spam those all around the map. Red Dawn HQ access is probably easier through the durathread factory (but still can be tricky). In Red Dawn HQ likewise being able to spam gas grenades with TAC makes this a smooth ride.

[Psidius]

I really appreciate everyone's help! This is a lot clearer now.

It seems like the answer is obvious, but I'm guessing using flashlights on missions with snipers/spotters is very ill-advised?

[psavola]

I really appreciate everyone's help! This is a lot clearer now.

It seems like the answer is obvious, but I'm guessing using flashlights on missions with snipers/spotters is very ill-advised?

Yes, I seem to recall they light up the area immediately around you, and you get seen from afar. I never use them myself.

On the other hand, activated electro/trace/elerium flares only start emitting light after they are thrown and hit the ground. When in hand (or elsewhere in the inventory), they do not do that yet. Or if you drop one to the ground, they don't emit light either.

I suppose this must be intentional, though on another thread the mod author said something about changing grenade behaviour. On the other hand, chemical flares (that work in underwater) emit light immediately and work differently. The normal flares have "throwTrigger: true" while chemical flares have "isExplodingInHands: true".

[Juku121]

Both flashlights and chemical flares have 'defaultBehavior: true', while the various other flares don't.

Using flashlights against snipers in the night is not the best idea, but they can still be thrown as flares and have a bigger light radius than the rest. You can still make a 'ring of fire' with them, but you need to be able to survive the initial barrage. Depending on mission and your own transport, not as bad as it sounds, but nowhere near optimal, either.

They're best used to hunt down melee enemies in the dark (although why would you?) and in the caves. Flares are much better vs snipers, if you have them - and you should, they're available from the start.