Best way to deal with Ship Turrets on Terror missions

[Juku121]

Yes, but expected tritanium to be mechanically different from non-Tritanium. Or would it only differ in power?

Well, given that Tritanium ammo already (mostly) only differs in power, I imagine it wouldn't be a big deal.

If we only change shrapnel charges, then it's promising, but I think the modifications are too extreme - especially doubling the armour.

I don't think going below 1.5*damage against armourless units makes a big enough difference to make the change worthwhile, and if you don't compensate for it with a big ArmorEffectiveness penalty, either the difference between regular and shrapnel rounds is not noticeable, or shrapnel just becomes better overall.

Your typical HE-resistant, not-too-armoured enemy has less than 30 under armour and 80% or better concussive resistance and 100%+ cutting resistance. Typically even 20 armour or less. Unarmoured usually has around 5 under armour.

(80 - 30 * 2.0) * 1.5 = 30.
(80 - 30 * 1.5) * 1.5 ~= 52.
80 * 1.0 - 30 = 54.
80 * 0.8 - 30 = 34.

(80 - 20 * 2.0) * 1.5 = 60.
(80 - 20 * 1.5) * 1.5 = 75
80 * 1.0 - 20 = 60.
80 * 0.8 - 20 = 44.

(80 - 5 * 2.0) * 1.5 = 105.
(80 - 5 * 1.5) * 1.5 ~= 108.
80 * 1.0 - 5 = 75.

As you see, even 2.0 is kinda too good, unless you're willing to go with a 25% damage increase which is not particularly impressive even on no-armour peasants.

I mean, you can certainly tweak these numbers. But if you're too conservative you'll end up with shrapnel being the only choice again, instead of a tradeoff.

And also I'm not sure if we need a weapon profiled to kill completely unarmoured units. By the time you get there, wouldn't it feel overspecialised?

Perhaps, although that's where the wounding comes in.

There are also plenty of enemies with 20 or less armour, or cutting vulnerability/concussive resistance. Maybe they are not the biggest and baddest, but the idea is to get many of them at once and outlast them via wounds if nothing else.

Hmm, perhaps you could give shrapnel less RadiusReduction and a radius cutoff instead of increased damage? This way, shrapnel would have a larger danger area and get more of the mooks at once.

Yes, we started veering into the direction of rebalancing other weapons. I'm not willing to do that just to justify the tritanium shrapnel.

I was thinking more along the lines of if new shrapnel mechanics work out, then you can expand from there.

[Solarius Scorch]

All right, I'll think about it more and maybe consult other modders. I know that something needs to be done here, and like I said, it feels like a potentially good direction, but it's a delicate matter.

[psavola]

I had a first encounter with these in April 1999. The turrets made the mission  excessively difficult and even though I practised several times and tried various tactics, you'd almost always end up losing a lot of agents.

It might be I'm behind the curve or this came earlier than usual (I don't have laser tech yet, except a laser tank which was able take down two turrets, and the best I have was cyber armor and one power suit, so the agents would usually be one-shot by the turret), and no way to manufacture gauss ammo yet. So, the options were considerably limited, and the tactics mentioned in the first page of this thread didn't seem to be applicable at this point. As a test, it took about 5-10 shots from recoilless gun or anti-tank RPG rocket to take one down (WTF, shouldn't these work against these), but this was not a viable strategy because you'd lose a lot of agents to turret fire. Regular BO/tactical sniper rifles were not helpful either. Also, 2-3 high explosives didn't seem to even scratch a turrent. It strikes me that the CONCUSSIVE damage resistance is tuned way too high for these, because high-ex should likely be precisely a way to deal with these. Looking at the resistances, apparently the turrents don't include any circuitry either so EMP grenades are also useless. Likewise, electricity shots (for example from a thunder arcer) were useless.

What I ended up doing is trying to use maximal cover (requires a lot of luck from map generation; in this case, the map was almost open) and deal with most of the aliens first. Then sprint to the UFO with a dog (hoping no reaction shots), use the ship as a cover and use dog bark *) to remove the reaction fire one turret at a time, then move over a few agents. Then after 3-4 volleys of minigun the turret armor would be gone and you could finish it off.

So I keep wondering if there is really any reliable way to deal with this mission (at least at this stage of the game) without save scumming. By far the most difficult one so far for me, in others so far there would be some tactic that would be quite reliable. Or maybe the difficulty of laser turrets should be toned down a bit, at least in the early game.

*) If one wanted to make the game more realistic, one should really consider if all the units, including for example robotic/AI ones, are really that afraid of a dog bark. But that would also reduce one of the major selling points of having dogs along.

BTW: Gold Shield Ufopedia article mentions "EXPLOSIVE" damage. This should rather be CONCUSSIVE.

[Vakrug]

As was mentioned in the beginning of this topic, shrapnel weapons are way to deal with turrets. Both turrets and their shields have weakness to cutting damage. If you don't have shrapnel weapons, then better just run away.

[Raptor29a]

Sorry to join the discussion late, but there are a few things in the realm of physics that are needed here.
For example, Tri-titanium if it were lighter than steel and packed with identical grains of powder, would not carry as much force. A harder metal would not fragment as easily, and since it is a harder metal it won't deform easily. So, if it were a high velocity, high grain, round then it wouldn't be more damaging instead it would be more piercing. So I don’t see the debate on more damage going anywhere. One difference that does make sense is that an alloy round has greater armor piercing potential.
I find it interestimg you guys talk about shrapnel when you are dealing with a metal with mythically high hardness, unless that metal were precut and inside of a softer or potentially molten metal.
* I used to use the tactical sniper rifle alloy rounds to take out turrets on the landed battleships. (Could one shot each one)
*also mortors work well as a low tech solution

[Juku121]

So I don’t see the debate on more damage going anywhere. One difference that does make sense is that an alloy round has greater armor piercing potential.

The fact is that currently alloy rounds are both more damaging and only as much more armour-piercing as more damage itself provides. So in that sense the discussion doesn't need to go anywhere, since the end result is already in.

But your argument above only applies to actual ballistic rounds. A fragmentation weapon could take advantage of the resilience or sharpness or whatever the exact properties of Tritanium are, and use those to create more effective shapes or configurations of submunitions.

...unless that metal were precut and inside of a softer or potentially molten metal.

Er, what do you think the in-game shrapnel charges and rockets are?

...turrets on the landed battleships. (Could one shot each one)

These are indeed much easier to handle. Much of this discussion was centered on the big turrets commonly found on Terror Ships, which are not one-shottable and are a much bigger pain.

[Raptor29a]

Er, what do you think the in-game shrapnel charges and rockets are. These are indeed much easier to handle. Much of this discussion was centered on the big turrets commonly found on Terror Ships, which are not one-shottable and are a much bigger pain.

The makes sense, since they are gold shielded, and while the turret is weak to fire yet strong against plasma, the gold shield is strong against fire,  :obut weak against plasma.
Early game I would use plasma grenades or plasma weapons (or even flame glove) to kill the gold shield with gd shield down, I then hit it with incendiary mortor. Late game it takes two soldiers one with chem weapon like magma pluse LMG,  then with shield gone shoot the rurret with the fire launcher. (Fire launcher just as powsr as motor launders 

[Juku121]

Early game ... plasma grenades or plasma weapons ... Late game ... magma pluse LMG ... fire launcher

Er, how do you get plasma weapons unlocked before Pulse chem ammo?

The Fire Launchers are found on either some rare and possibly exremely dangerous UFOs (Troop Ship, looking at you!), or you need to roll well with the Osiron goody roulette. These are very late-game, unless you get very lucky.

[zee_ra]

In my experience, it was possible to deal with turrets by systematically using the latest alloy skyranger (the one that sits on the ground and has no ramp) as a cover systematically.  On such mission, the only major and true challenge has been dealing with chryssalids in the early few turns.  Otherwise, it has been generally possible to use rockets and mortars to destroy both the enemy waves and the turrets.  Actually, the turrets are destructible by two auto-mortar troopers hidden behind the vessel, out of the turret LoS.
a
I think that no major changes are needed to the current setup w.r.t. the terror ship, and other turreted vessels, since they're challenging but not impossible.

I would like to also note that in addition to playing vanilla, and employing the aforementioned tactics, I have also explored playing with additional mods separately.  In those mods, troopers get additional shielding available with certain armors.  I found that the tactics are not much different than with vanilla.

Finally, please note that by using a ship design with good cover AND blaster launchers, that specific type of mission becomes quite easy to handle.  So, it's certainly a good argument towards the point that the early encounters with more powerful vessels are a significant challenge (which is yet not impossible), and later -- merely a routine.

[Alex_D]

In my last terror mission, I had the Kitsune and two laser tanks. I was against Chasers, I believe. It was this industrial map with no clear LOS, except for the turrets that covered most avenues of approach. I didn't remember what the Gold shields did. After a couple of reloads, I kept most of my agents (and tanks) alive but badly injured.

My tactic against the turrets was to keep sniping them with the tank from further away their LOS range. If they cannot see you, they can't retaliate. I kept shooting, took me endless turns, but finally they went down.

[zee_ra]

In my last terror mission, I had the Kitsune and two laser tanks. I was against Chasers, I believe. It was this industrial map with no clear LOS, except for the turrets that covered most avenues of approach. I didn't remember what the Gold shields did. After a couple of reloads, I kept most of my agents (and tanks) alive but badly injured.

My tactic against the turrets was to keep sniping them with the tank from further away their LOS range. If they cannot see you, they can't retaliate. I kept shooting, took me endless turns, but finally they went down.

In a no-civilian city, the mortars truly rule.  The buildings provide enough cover to set up firing points on the first turn.  And then, you may seed mayhem all over the place.  Usually, 4-6 mortars are more than enough to cause complete devastation.

[MoonKid]

I am also struggeling with the turret things on top of the terror ship.
I used the debug mode doing research about them. It seems they are recoverable? They have 20 health points but recover from every damage I tried damage (emp, laser, explosives).

[psavola]

I am also struggeling with the turret things on top of the terror ship.
I used the debug mode doing research about them. It seems they are recoverable? They have 20 health points but recover from every damage I tried damage (emp, laser, explosives).

You probably looked wrong? Alien laser turrets have 80 health and 60 armor, and a gold shield with 200 capacity and 50 recharge per turn. Gold shields have poor protection from CUTTING. So you can usually and easily one-shot them with shrapnel rockets or charges (= an area effect hitting the 2x2 unit four times). The thing you usually have to manage is having a right angle and/or cover to get to it safely.