Author Topic: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1  (Read 74813 times)

Offline Xilmi

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 605
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #585 on: December 15, 2023, 11:16:02 pm »
Installing these helped. I can now load the game at least.
But I couldn't reproduce a crash once I had all the mods. I guess I also might need your options.cfg in order to make sure all the settings are the same.

Offline Abyss

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #586 on: December 15, 2023, 11:52:08 pm »
But I couldn't reproduce a crash once I had all the mods. I guess I also might need your options.cfg in order to make sure all the settings are the same.
Ok. Here it is.
On your side it doesn't crash? I had it two times out of 4 tries, on third and fourth turns of AI.
Somewhat inconsistent decision making)
Perhaps randomization options may affect it too.

Offline Alpha Centauri Bear

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #587 on: December 16, 2023, 04:21:11 am »
I have adapted my mod for BAI engine and testing it now. Some initial feedback.

AI acts like player would: spots an enemy and kills it with all firepower. Which is pretty neat. Taking cover, smoke, motion detectors, remembering enemy positions, anticipating enemy move is more important now. It becomes true game of intellects like chess. Amazing. Thank you for this mod and you hard work on AI.

Numbers of forces are extremely important now. Fighting larger USO is noticeably more difficult and terror missions are a slaughterhouse. I don't even bother going to terror sites without personal armor. And even with personal armor I encounter serious casualties.

Smoke helps against small number of enemies located in one direction (small USO recovery). For large number of opponents I have to surround my troops with complete circle of smoke plus make sure I extend it high enough to be hidden from high views as well. Still somehow they manage to see through some holes in smoke and notice at least one of my units and then unleash the hell on it until its dead. This is especially pronounced during terror mission when deployment location is surrounded by aliens from all sides including some at second-third floors. Even continuous wall of smoke does not help in these cases.

Due to AI being smart the battle is most intense at the beginning when they both sides have maximal number of units. As soon as alien strength is broken it makes it somewhat easier to hunt for last ones. Same is true when player team strength is broken. Then it is wiser to just bail out. For terror missions it turns into absurd: aliens cannot even let me get out of the transport to establish smoke screen at times. And if I dare to get out without smoke screen hoping to set it up next turn, they kill half of my army effectively ending my assault. First few turns and luck in transport positioning defines the battle.

They shoot across whole map with sonic and arch weapon (deep ones). True that players do the same at their leisure. However, when number of units is high at each side, spotted unit is dead same turn. Being spotted becomes the biggest fear. No amount of armor helps as they keep shooting and throw grenades until unit is dead. With PWT launchers they just slaughter X-Com troops in few turns. Looks like there is threshold number of aliens beyond which it is impossible to fight them.

They use up ammo and grenades extensively. They also quite often carry primed grenades effectively wiping out all dropped inventory. This seriously impact recovery income.



Some thoughts of what can be improved regarding the above. Not the suggestion for this mod. More of thinking out loud. Maybe I can do this in mine.

Probably reduce involvement of far units into the shooting. Either introduce max shooting distance or let aimed shot precision to diminish as well with extender accuracy.
Maybe also reduce accuracy when shooting target that is not directly visible (radio targeting). Maybe further reduce accuracy when shooting through smoke/fire and the like? This way smoke may play less role in covering but more role in blurring units and give them survival chance.

Grenades destroying fell inventory is fine. I can probably just increase item cost to compensate.

Maybe give AI and X-Com initial spacing. Do not place them immediately next to each other at turn one? Give both parties chance to create a formation. Otherwise, Xarquid or Biodrone hanging right across transport door will put a stop to any attempt to disembark.

Rework smoke mechanics. Make it more protective in all direction including height.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2023, 04:23:38 am by Alpha Centauri Bear »

Offline jnarical

  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 50
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #588 on: December 16, 2023, 05:34:11 am »

They shoot across whole map with sonic and arch weapon (deep ones).
There’s a known issue with arc weapons. Did you have a feeling that deep ones are too deadly in terms of accuracy? Did they ever miss?

Offline Alpha Centauri Bear

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #589 on: December 16, 2023, 06:24:44 am »
They miss very often. Like one of three shots hits. However, having all the TU shooting from any position on the battlefield, they can shoot 3-4 times. Time this by number of them shooting at the same target. Some inaccuracy is irrelevant.

Offline Xilmi

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 605
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #590 on: December 16, 2023, 12:45:06 pm »
On your side it doesn't crash? I had it two times out of 4 tries, on third and fourth turns of AI.
I tried 4 times and unfortunately couldn't reproduce the crash despite using your config. :\

Offline Xilmi

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 605
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #591 on: December 16, 2023, 12:52:36 pm »

Some thoughts of what can be improved regarding the above. Not the suggestion for this mod. More of thinking out loud. Maybe I can do this in mine.

Probably reduce involvement of far units into the shooting. Either introduce max shooting distance or let aimed shot precision to diminish as well with extender accuracy.
Maybe also reduce accuracy when shooting target that is not directly visible (radio targeting). Maybe further reduce accuracy when shooting through smoke/fire and the like? This way smoke may play less role in covering but more role in blurring units and give them survival chance.

Grenades destroying fell inventory is fine. I can probably just increase item cost to compensate.

Maybe give AI and X-Com initial spacing. Do not place them immediately next to each other at turn one? Give both parties chance to create a formation. Otherwise, Xarquid or Biodrone hanging right across transport door will put a stop to any attempt to disembark.

Rework smoke mechanics. Make it more protective in all direction including height.
A lot of these things are possible with the available options:

Involvement of far units shooting => Put "Targeting behavior for Brutal AI" to 1 and they won't do it anymore.
Reduced accuracy without vision is a setting that can be set in Mods. It's the NOLosPenalty we recently talked about.
Grenades destroying inventory => Disable "Allow Brutal AI to pre-prime grenades". However, this also vastly impacts their playing-strengths as not prepriming makes grenades a lot less useful.
Smoke meachanic => This is tied to the "Explosion height" option. This way smoke can cover units in several layers. It maybe could be made separate from explosion-height.

Offline Abyss

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #592 on: December 16, 2023, 04:14:40 pm »
I tried 4 times and unfortunately couldn't reproduce the crash despite using your config. :\
Yep, I ended the mission with no more crashes too. I'll report if it appear again. 
Though, Inconsistent crashes means that AI differentiates behavior. Which is ultimately good.

Offline Alpha Centauri Bear

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #593 on: December 16, 2023, 05:57:36 pm »
A lot of these things are possible with the available options:

Involvement of far units shooting => Put "Targeting behavior for Brutal AI" to 1 and they won't do it anymore.
Reduced accuracy without vision is a setting that can be set in Mods. It's the NOLosPenalty we recently talked about.
Grenades destroying inventory => Disable "Allow Brutal AI to pre-prime grenades". However, this also vastly impacts their playing-strengths as not prepriming makes grenades a lot less useful.
Smoke meachanic => This is tied to the "Explosion height" option. This way smoke can cover units in several layers. It maybe could be made separate from explosion-height.

You are right these things can be disabled. However, my point is not to disable them. I like them. I just want the battle to last somewhat longer instead of being few turns roll. I also like AI to be able to do everything human can. Dumbing it down is not an option for me.

For far shooting I use extender accuracy dropoff for all shooting types including aimed and all weapons are affected including terrorist special weapons.

Yes, I thought about vision accuracy penalty but with the accuracy dropoff it is less of the concern.

I am fine with grenades destroying inventory. This is merely economical impact that can be offset by cranking cost of alien stuff up.

I have explosion height = 2 in my mod. Still does not help at times. Need to work on it a little more. Actually, this is a big question how explosion height affect smoke generation.

Offline Abyss

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #594 on: December 16, 2023, 08:52:50 pm »
Probably reduce involvement of far units into the shooting. Either introduce max shooting distance or let aimed shot precision to diminish as well with extender accuracy.
All shot types  (snap, auto and aimed) are customizable with formulas.
If you don't like a weapon to be precise in your mode - just set formula you like.
Like Dioxine balanced weapons for a year or so, and then 5 years took various suggestions from people who play X-Piratez. And still introduces new weapons and tactics for each update of mod.
 

Offline Xilmi

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 605
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #595 on: December 16, 2023, 10:08:50 pm »
Yep, I ended the mission with no more crashes too. I'll report if it appear again. 
Though, Inconsistent crashes means that AI differentiates behavior. Which is ultimately good.
I read on Rosigma-discord that this might be related to the build-version being 32 Bit and the megamods running out of memory. Me always running from Editor could explain that I don't have this. Could try what happens with compiled version.
He uses this program: https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/large-address-aware.112556/
there are others, but this one has GUI.

Which apparently kinda turns it into a 64-Bit-version.

When I try to compile in 64-Bit I get an error while linking yaml-cpp.lib.

I should try to figure out what I have to do in order to be able to build it as 64-bit-version in order to prevent these kinds of errors.

Offline Xilmi

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 605
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #596 on: December 17, 2023, 01:09:43 pm »
FYI:

There now is a sub-forum for this mod:

https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/board,46.0.html

Offline Abyss

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #597 on: December 17, 2023, 07:50:46 pm »
FYI:
There now is a sub-forum for this mod
Yep, Alpha Centauri Bear inspired me to make such suggestion to forum owners.
All is good, even if changes way different than intended) 

Offline Alpha Centauri Bear

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #598 on: December 17, 2023, 10:24:51 pm »
Just curious if Windows 64 bit has any benefits? The 32 bit version works completely fine for me.

Offline Xilmi

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 605
    • View Profile
Re: [SOURCEMOD] Brutal-OXCE 7.12.1
« Reply #599 on: December 18, 2023, 03:07:46 pm »
Just curious if Windows 64 bit has any benefits? The 32 bit version works completely fine for me.
Here's a quote from 40k-discord that explains why I've been trying to build one:

"The problem with not having a 64bits version of a BrutalAI exe is that the openxcom megamods (like 40k+rosigma are) features truckloads of pictures/images/etc.. that respective sizes are very likely adding up with playtime and make the memory used ingame flirting with the 32bits executable limitation :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_GB_limit
Something not happening in vanilla openxcom of course due to everything being small in file size."