Raven or Retailator?

[Recruit69]

Both very similar crafts, but yet seems pointless to have both mods enabled in the game when I got to researching the improved interceptor

Which suits the game better as an improved interceptor? Raven or Retailator?

[Harald_Gray]

Depends on your definition of suiting the game better.

Raven is more powerful - it is both faster and carries more fuel. Yes, Retaliator has higher damage capacity, but that is not that important, especially when you're likely to arm either of them with Avalanches. Raven can catch large scouts flying at their full speed, Retaliator is too slow for that.

But I've won the original game several times using only Interceptors and Skyrangers (plus the Avenger for the Cydonia mission) and no plasma beams, so I'd say even the Retaliator is a good fighter. And I like the stats more - a non-Elerium craft should be slower than those Large Scouts, let's say on par with Medium Scouts.

[Arthanor]

It's a bit of a weird situation right now, with many crafts built to address relatively similar issues. We have the retaliator, alloy interceptor, thunderstorm and sentinel all not using elerium much and quick to access.

I am hoping to get a mod together that will include air combat tweaks (similar to "Air Combat Rebalanced") but with multiple additional crafts for XCom, to go along with the "Expanded Alien Armoury".

As it is, there is indeed no "better" mod, just a variety of ways to address the same problem of there being a rather large gap between the interceptor and the firestorm. For now, take your pick, it doesn't really matter.

[Recruit69]

I just think that quality is more important than quality.

The time it takes to manufacture a craft, etc, time it takes to research the craft, one craft easily becomes obsolete when better crafts become available. Having too many to choose from, I feel, makes it less worthwhile.

[Arthanor]

You mean quality over quantity? Why not both?

Having only two realistic end game crafts is rather boring. The firestorm is your answer to everything except if it is too big, then it's the avenger. It is not that long to access them either, although getting enough Elerium to operate can be an issue.

I like games where the progression is smooth with small improvements that make me feel like I have accomplished something and give me something new to entertain myself with until the next new development. If this process has too few steps, what usually happens is:

State 1 (say interceptor as your fighter craft):
1.1 - Easy
1.2 - Challenging and fun (UFOs are bigger, you get damaged, you have to think)
1.3 - Too hard (UFOs got too large quickly, interception is useless as you just get blown up)
State 2 (Firestorm comes in!)
2.1 - Game is easy (the firestorm is much better than an interceptor and you probably are getting plasma beams soon)
2.2 - Challenging (UFOs get bigger or more of them appear)
2.3 - Hard (You need swarms of Firestorms, lose some any ways)
State 3 (Avenger!!)
3.1 - Game is easy: Avenger rules the sky
... Depending on difficulty, you might reach 3.2 or 3.3 too.

I'd rather the game be challenging and fun the whole time. Setting up bases around the world means I tend to keep at least 6 fighters for interceptions (NAmerica, SAmerica, Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia). With a continuous stream of upgraded fighters, my workshop can be building the latest craft I discovered, while the continent I care about the least is still using crafts from a few generations back, so I get to use everything for a while any ways.

Furthermore, having various crafts doesn't mean that they necessarily all become obsolete. Having different crafts to intercept different UFOs (super fast one to intercept small UFOs, slow and resilient one for the big ones) gives options. What you are saying is a bit like: "I don't need lasers in the game, they get overshadowed by plasma too quickly". My reaction is: "How can I make both relevant, at different stages of the game (laser should come first) but together as well (it should never be irrelevant)".

[Recruit69]

You mean quality over quantity? Why not both?

Having only two realistic end game crafts is rather boring. The firestorm is your answer to everything except if it is too big, then it's the avenger. It is not that long to access them either, although getting enough Elerium to operate can be an issue.

I like games where the progression is smooth with small improvements that make me feel like I have accomplished something and give me something new to entertain myself with until the next new development. If this process has too few steps, what usually happens is:

State 1 (say interceptor as your fighter craft):
1.1 - Easy
1.2 - Challenging and fun (UFOs are bigger, you get damaged, you have to think)
1.3 - Too hard (UFOs got too large quickly, interception is useless as you just get blown up)
State 2 (Firestorm comes in!)
2.1 - Game is easy (the firestorm is much better than an interceptor and you probably are getting plasma beams soon)
2.2 - Challenging (UFOs get bigger or more of them appear)
2.3 - Hard (You need swarms of Firestorms, lose some any ways)
State 3 (Avenger!!)
3.1 - Game is easy: Avenger rules the sky
... Depending on difficulty, you might reach 3.2 or 3.3 too.

I'd rather the game be challenging and fun the whole time. Setting up bases around the world means I tend to keep at least 6 fighters for interceptions (NAmerica, SAmerica, Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia). With a continuous stream of upgraded fighters, my workshop can be building the latest craft I discovered, while the continent I care about the least is still using crafts from a few generations back, so I get to use everything for a while any ways.

Furthermore, having various crafts doesn't mean that they necessarily all become obsolete. Having different crafts to intercept different UFOs (super fast one to intercept small UFOs, slow and resilient one for the big ones) gives options. What you are saying is a bit like: "I don't need lasers in the game, they get overshadowed by plasma too quickly". My reaction is: "How can I make both relevant, at different stages of the game (laser should come first) but together as well (it should never be irrelevant)".

Sorry I did mean quality over quantity.

I completely agree with your points. And yes, I suppose it would be rather boring in a way to have two end crafts available.

There's sentinent craft which certainly have made my game interesting.

I also agree with the fact I prefer the game to be challenging. But I want the game to "force" me to find the game challenging, i.e. cannot research plasma until i have researched laser as an example. This would make progression more interesting and of course, more challenging, purely because I don't have a choice to "skip" some items that would quickly become obsolete.

Nevertheless,

My idea of "progression" as you say, to make it challenging itself....
Interceptor - as standard.
Sentinent craft - available to buy, if you can afford it...
Raven or Retailator (i havent decided which is better!) to replace Interceptor and assist Sentinent crafts...
Firestorm to replace phase out all existing crafts since its superior over interceptor/raven/retailator?
Additional craft here to bridge the gap and have smooth progression... (as you rightly mentioned in your previous post)
Then of course Avenger, maybe to reduce the stats since it is overpowered. Need some risk involved!

[Arcalane]

In terms of Quality as far as the actual mods are concerned, I'd say Raven. The Retaliator is a recoloured interceptor - nothing particularly exciting.

The problem with having the Sentinel as a 'if you can afford it' starter option is that;

1) It makes no sense to be this super-tough tank of a craft using human engineering. For it to be balanced/plausible it'll either rapidly lose effectiveness, or be hugely reliant on niche scenarios that allow it to be easily outrun if the alien AI decides to disengage.
2) The Firestorm obsoletes it or it obsoletes the Firestorm and potentially Avenger.

I figure, make the Sentinel an endgame fighter. Slow, heavy, but built using alloys and alien propulsion to justify its unusual design/aesthetics. Throw in extra weapon slots, maybe, or limit the Firestorm to only 1. The Firestorm is then a fast-response craft that can deal with small-to-mid size craft like terror ships and abductors effectively (rather than throwing three interceptors and a swarm of avalanches at them...) whereas the Sentinel takes over as the Battleship and Supply Ship wrecker that lumbers in and gives as good as it gets.

Use the Raven as an intermediary between the Interceptor and Firestorm, something you can use to cover the backs of spending nations that see less activity, and as a craft that only requires alien alloys. It can be faster and tougher. The ability to modify or increase craft stats using research could help keep them a little more competitive by further upgrading their capabilities, too.

Avenger could have to have its offensive/defensive capabilities reduced, but could still serve as a capable combatant against small-to-mid UFOs that can immediately land on anything it shoots down. Against a battleship, you might deploy a pair of Sentinels to do the grunt work with plasma beams whilst the Avenger provides fire support with fusion launchers and is ready to hot-drop on the smoking wreck.

[Recruit69]

In terms of Quality as far as the actual mods are concerned, I'd say Raven. The Retaliator is a recoloured interceptor - nothing particularly exciting.

The problem with having the Sentinel as a 'if you can afford it' starter option is that;

1) It makes no sense to be this super-tough tank of a craft using human engineering. For it to be balanced/plausible it'll either rapidly lose effectiveness, or be hugely reliant on niche scenarios that allow it to be easily outrun if the alien AI decides to disengage.
2) The Firestorm obsoletes it or it obsoletes the Firestorm and potentially Avenger.

I figure, make the Sentinel an endgame fighter. Slow, heavy, but built using alloys and alien propulsion to justify its unusual design/aesthetics. Throw in extra weapon slots, maybe, or limit the Firestorm to only 1. The Firestorm is then a fast-response craft that can deal with small-to-mid size craft like terror ships and abductors effectively (rather than throwing three interceptors and a swarm of avalanches at them...) whereas the Sentinel takes over as the Battleship and Supply Ship wrecker that lumbers in and gives as good as it gets.

Use the Raven as an intermediary between the Interceptor and Firestorm, something you can use to cover the backs of spending nations that see less activity, and as a craft that only requires alien alloys. It can be faster and tougher. The ability to modify or increase craft stats using research could help keep them a little more competitive by further upgrading their capabilities, too.

Avenger could have to have its offensive/defensive capabilities reduced, but could still serve as a capable combatant against small-to-mid UFOs that can immediately land on anything it shoots down. Against a battleship, you might deploy a pair of Sentinels to do the grunt work with plasma beams whilst the Avenger provides fire support with fusion launchers and is ready to hot-drop on the smoking wreck.

+1   

[essohbe]

I use everything to make the game encompassing but I quit using the retaliator after it got destroyed by a battleship. I use thunderstorms and ravens pretty exclusively. I have only 1 firestorm and it has fusion ball launchers on it just for taking down the battleships (which I never engage with only 1 fighter plane anyways).

Thunderstoms seem to have made firestorms unecessary (they don't use ellerium or cost very much at all). I know they only have one weapon pod but 2 alone can crash a battleship with one at standard range and the other at cautious.

[Arthanor]

Very interesting discussion! I agree with most of it and, indeed, have a mod in the works to make all crafts relevant (and make the game more challenging through some additional research!).

I invite you all to check out the XCom Expanded Armoury, the craft part of which will feature all the crafts currently under discussion (along with two new transports, the faster alloy Skyranger and the bigger Skywarden), rebalanced so that they make sense (ex.: no more crazy strong sentinel at the start, but it appears much later as a slow heavy interceptor).

It's not ready yet (It will be my first real mod and it uses many people's mods so it takes time to grasp everything), but I am making good progress!