Author Topic: Promotions  (Read 12195 times)

Offline Man in the Funny Hat

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Promotions
« on: August 22, 2013, 08:23:57 pm »
Watching a few Let's Play's and in playing my own games what I'm seeing is that troops are not being correctly promoted - at least insofar as I understand the default game is SUPPOSED to do so.  A rookie becomes a squaddie by getting his first kill, yes?  I've seen a few promoted to squaddie while still having "# Kills" listed as 0.  Now it may be that they're getting credit for HITTING an alien that actually gets killed by someone else.  What I see more often though is rookies listed with 1, 2 or even more kills who are still rookies and that I don't understand.

Offline Align

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Re: Promotions
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2013, 08:28:08 pm »
I think it's whenever you gain Primary XP? Might make an exception for thrown weapons, so rookies getting kills with grenades...

Offline Man in the Funny Hat

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Re: Promotions
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2013, 06:48:58 pm »
Yeah. Been doing a bit more research on the under-the-hood mechanics and I see I have long been under a false impression about not just promotions but a few other things as well - like how to improve strength.  That too is a matter of gaining "primary xp" rather than carrying weight as I had mistakenly been led to misunderstand in error.

Offline kevL

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Re: Promotions
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2013, 05:05:28 am »
here's an opposite case, a rookie with a kill.

The ss has not been doctored; I think the kill was by a proxy grenade

Offline djemon_lda

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Re: Promotions
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2013, 04:45:12 pm »
what bugs me in the topic of promotions is that I had guys who went on maybe just a few missions, and then were sitting in the quarters doing totally nothing for months, and they were getting promotions.

Offline Sharp

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Re: Promotions
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2013, 05:55:48 pm »
Any skill increase except throwing results in promotion from rookie to squaddie.

Promotions after squaddies are done by

promotion_score = 2*HPs + 2*Energy + 4*Reactions + 4*Bravery + 3*TUs + 6*FireAcc + MeeLeeAcc + ThrowAcc + Strength + 10*Missions_cnt + 10*Kills_cnt + PsiSkill>0?(PsiStrength+2*PsiSkill):0;

Regardless of whether they are on missions or not, this is why generally your best soldiers are the ones that get promoted more, the wiki has plenty of information on how it works. Promotions are only calculated after a battle, but seeing as it's skills, kills and missions taken that have a big impact on promotions its very unlikely that soldiers who don't go on many missions will get the high ranks.

https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Promotions

Offline Man in the Funny Hat

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Re: Promotions
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2013, 06:28:12 pm »
According to https://ufopaedia.org promotions are given according to a "promotion score".  The formula for that score has a great deal to do with a soldiers basic stats, seemingly as much or more than their combat performance or participation.  That's why soldiers sitting in your base are being promoted even when they aren't on missions - their stats have given them a "promotion score" that exceeds the troops you just took on a mission even above someone who just single-handedly took out 6 aliens and kept his cool when others panicked.  Even the most heavily-used trooper you have with gobs of kills and a dozen missions under his belt can be overlooked for promotion because some rookie schmuck you just hired to replace losses has better stats.

The advantage of officers is actually only the morale effects.  Having officers on missions provides a morale bonus when aliens are killed - as well as a morale penalty when an officer is killed.  Officers don't shoot better.  They don't resist psi attacks better.  They only adjust morale.  Because of that, the higher the rank of the officer the less you actually want to expose them to danger on a mission because it can cause a cascade in panic.  A colonel gets killed and the sergeant panics - which gets the sergeant killed and drops morale again to the point where the captain panics, and then gets killed... and then it's a massacre.  And that's just with being shot - it doesn't include being panicked or taken over by psi attacks.

Now, out here in the real world we tend to think of these promotions in terms of it being a field promotion - which should be based on your display of competence on an actual mission.  But in the game that's only part of it.  Mostly it's better that you think of it in terms of all your troops repeatedly undergoing tests and running obstacle courses back at base and the one with the best overall score in those competitions gets promoted first - with a bonus for doing well on missions.  Then every time you complete a mission those competitive test scores are checked again back at base and if there's room for promotions they get handed out again.  But you don't have to be doing missions and killing aliens to do really well on those promotion tests.

Really, that's kinda bass-ackwards from how we seem to reflexively think it should work.  It FEELS like the troops with the best in-mission performance should be the ones getting all the promotions - and then if there's a TIE the trooper with the highest stats gets the promotion.  The reality is that the trooper who just came off a really great mission will be ignored if he doesn't have good stats.  Actual combat performance is HIGHLY undervalued for promotions.

Offline Sharp

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Re: Promotions
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2013, 07:17:19 pm »
Skills do play a part in the formula but as you can see number of missions and kills are very big factors as well. A guy who goes on a mission and takes out 6 aliens will have an increased promotion score of 70, 10 for the mission and 60 from the kills, and will probably have some improved skill after killing 6 aliens as well which all adds up to increased promotion score.

Rookies can only get promoted to squaddies by skill increase which means you will never have a rookie you just hired sitting in base taking promotion over anybody else, squaddies can get promoted while in base though.

It sort of makes sense really, rookies get promoted to squaddies once they are battlefield veterans but after that it's more about who is suited to leadership, guys don't get promoted to captain just based on battlefield valour but being suited to lead. You wouldn't want you brave guy who killed dozens of aliens but got wounded last mission to get overlooked for promotion while your shitty guy who just went on a mission and managed to get the killing hit on a disarmed alien gets the promotion instead.

Anyway as you can see Firing Accuracy, Bravery and Reactions are the biggest factors in skill for promotion while Mission number and kill count are even bigger factors. If you have a guy in base getting promoted maybe you should take him on missions as he seems to have good skills :P


Offline djemon_lda

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Re: Promotions
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2013, 11:21:26 am »
Quote
good skills

well it was one of the lesser skilled soldiers - my 8 best are on an avenger. he had 71 accuracy and 45 reactions which is weak vs the weakest guy in the transport who has something like 74 accuracy and 84 reactions :P the guy in the base couldn't possibly have his secondary skills increased, because he didn't use his primary skills. that soldier was also inferior in terms of psi.

and as it is to the extended promotions reasoning by one of my predecessors - I wouldn't give a captain or colonel to a guy who has been in the field once, while there's an open war between two worlds, and the first squad has like 30 missions and killer stats compared to him. who would have followed such a captain or colonel ? I wouldn't.

I will take a peek on the code, perhaps there's a bug hidden there that I will notice.

Offline Sharp

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Re: Promotions
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2013, 01:52:31 pm »
Well promotions are only 1 step at at time, you cant advance from squaddie to commander even if somehow in a mission a squaddie gets 100 kills and has highest promotion score.

If you do just keep one guy who has fairly high stats at the time in base all game then it is possible that he will keep getting promoted when a slot opens up if say he is the only sgt when a captain role is available. However you have to keep putting officers in base and not in missions or just suddenly buy 20 soldiers to make more upper ranks available more quickly then it is possible to get low skilled high rank officers.

You can always just sack your poor promoted guy. Meritocracy is an ideal but perhaps it's just politics to get commander rank :P

Offline Man in the Funny Hat

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Re: Promotions
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2013, 06:42:32 am »
You can always just sack your poor promoted guy. Meritocracy is an ideal but perhaps it's just politics to get commander rank :P
Or, you know, like, be given your own choice as a player on who is best to promote?  :)

Offline MyThos

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Re: Promotions
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2013, 03:47:14 pm »
Or, you know, like, be given your own choice as a player on who is best to promote?  :)

That would indeed be a nice option: player gets update window to select potential candidates for promotion. I like it :)

Offline djemon_lda

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Re: Promotions
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2013, 03:55:34 pm »
Quote from: MyThos
nice option
nice option? THAT would be bloody ingenious! you sir should have been involved more in designing the product.

Offline MyThos

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Re: Promotions
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2013, 04:55:36 pm »
Well, I proposed a new optional feature in the "Suggestions" forum. Let's see what the overall resonance is like.