Recommended rifle

[termidor]

The best way to deal with manors is promo III weapons. Rocket launcher + mortar + heavy grenade launcher with gas will make your life much easier, as really manors need good crow control options. The best you can do with promo II stuff is dynamite and the Milkor (specially useful if you manage to get some napalm ammo)but I would recommned always rushing Promo III ASAP ( The most consistent way imo to prio Church of Dagon )

[Juku121]

Well I was leaving smart guns outside of the conversation as that is mostly syndicate missions, and that is  more promo III territory

You can also loot Smartrifles from various MiB missions. Even from the David Vincent ambush or the Crop Circles if you get lucky. RNG, yes, but it's not impossible to get smart weapons early-ish.

Bo rifle get outshine by the L85 in medium range due to two snaps + one aimed shots (the Famas also can do this).

The BO Assault Rifle can do the same, or two aimed shots - which neither of those can. It has somewhat worse aimed accuracy and somewhat better snap accuracy, plus considerably better autofire and slightly higher damage in a range that matters a lot (good early-game enemy armour tends to be around 20-30).

The BO rifle is the new SVD, and it's indeed not very good. I'm mainly arguing for the Smartrifle, which technically is a Promo II weapon. It combines all the BO improvements into one package and adds more on top.

I also have slightly improved sprites for both the BO rifles, so I'm a little biased due to that.

Also the Nato battle rifles hit harder than the BO rifle with acc.

Yeah. Part of the weird balance in this mod. Although 7.62x51 has less armour penetration than BO rounds or even 5.56 , so it evens out a little. Not enough to lift the BO rifle out of mediocrity, sadly.

Also armour pen doesn't matter that much when you add power bonus.

BO Auto-Sniper also has a power bonus. A better one than the SVD, in fact.

Look, I'm not saying the BO Auto-Sniper is better than the SVD. That lack of three snaps really hurts. Its just that it does hit as about as hard, and harder against anyone with some actual armour.

If you want to use good MG smartgun not included you use the MG 3 or the M240. Much better than the sorry excuse of BO Lmg.

Er, what?

M-60 vs BO LMG: virtually the same damage, including armour penetration. About the same accuracy at 30+ tiles, maybe BO a bit worse for poor shots. Huge boost to M-60 with kneeling which will largely go away once your soldiers hit 100+ firing accuracy. About 25% better accuracy for the BO within 25 tiles, equalised when kneeling. Massive weight advantage for the BO, compensated for by a huge ammo capacity you'll never actually need during most missions. Better burst trade-off for the BO, 3 vs 2 snap is much more reliable. And, most importantly, can get off two auto-shots without being restricted to staring in the same direction.

I would say they're broadly comparable, with the M-60 being a better in static positions and with worse shots, and the BO being better for trained agents who maneuver around more. Guess which kind of soldiers agents I have.

BO vs the LMGs: better damage, better accuracy at 25+ tiles, an actual 3-round burst. 'Nuff said.

3 shot snap is not uncommon in smg...

It's not the snap that's unique, it's the accuracy and damage combination. The BO SMG has as good or better damage than any other 3-round-snap SMG, and up to 50-100% better accuracy at range.

Not that big of a step up between the PSG 1 and the Bo sniper rifle.

IMO the big difference is the ability to fire two snaps in any direction or after kneeling/standing. The other improvements are indeed minor.

I almost never use the auto shots, so look for the best snap % and damage on rifles.

Then the SVD, the Galil, the G11 and the Smartrifle are all good. IMO the Smartrifle is the best due to being most flexible. YMMV.

We camped the entrance and killed over 30 Dagon cultists (and a few maids...) before anyone got any shots back off.

Wait until you hit a Red Dawn manor, or one of the cultists manages to produce a grenade onto your camping spot.

The best you can do with promo II stuff is dynamite and the Milkor...

The OICW is also a possibility, but damn is it expensive.

Early manors are not too bad and give you some experience with the map.

[termidor]

The BO Assault Rifle can do the same, or two aimed shots - which neither of those can. It has somewhat worse aimed accuracy and somewhat better snap accuracy, plus considerably better autofire and slightly higher damage in a range that matters a lot (good early-game enemy armour tends to be around 20-30).

The BO rifle is the new SVD, and it's indeed not very good. I'm mainly arguing for the Smartrifle, which technically is a Promo II weapon. It combines all the BO improvements into one package and adds more on top.

I also have slightly improved sprites for both the BO rifles, so I'm a little biased due to that.

The BO assault rifle aimed shot is rubbish, aimed shots below 100 acc are not TU efficient. Also no, the BO rifle isn't the new SVD, they fill different  roles. Ofc for most situations I think the SVD comes on top which is the sad story of AR in Xcom, lacking the real life advantage of firerate. And that's why I think the G11 is superior to either two, bc it is an effective weapon at short and medium ranges thanks to the only practically useful auto fire (seriously 65% acc at 16 range is fantastic) and is still better at long range engagement,  only losing to the BO rifle in super long aimed shots.

Look, I'm not saying the BO Auto-Sniper is better than the SVD. That lack of three snaps really hurts. Its just that it does hit as about as hard, and harder against anyone with some actual armour.

Again compare to the hunting rifle, I don't know why you keep comparing to the auto. Regardless in practical terms damage output between the two is very similar with slightly  better armor pen with the auto (and really not that it make much of a difference.

Er, what?

M-60 vs BO LMG: virtually the same damage, including armour penetration. About the same accuracy at 30+ tiles, maybe BO a bit worse for poor shots. Huge boost to M-60 with kneeling which will largely go away once your soldiers hit 100+ firing accuracy. About 25% better accuracy for the BO within 25 tiles, equalised when kneeling. Massive weight advantage for the BO, compensated for by a huge ammo capacity you'll never actually need during most missions. Better burst trade-off for the BO, 3 vs 2 snap is much more reliable. And, most importantly, can get off two auto-shots without being restricted to staring in the same direction.

I would say they're broadly comparable, with the M-60 being a better in static positions and with worse shots, and the BO being better for trained agents who maneuver around more. Guess which kind of soldiers agents I have.

BO vs the LMGs: better damage, better accuracy at 25+ tiles, an actual 3-round burst. 'Nuff said.

This is so wrong in so many ways. First of no, the accuracy  bonus while kneeling doesn't  go away at 100+ accuracy as you stated, you can see it yourself how it massively improve accuracy  and why the Nato GPMG get better acc. Second of all why would you run with your Mg's around? You get assault rifles and the BO smg to do exactly that. Sure snap fire in the BO assault LMg is better, specially while standing, but using this weapons that way is a waste. What you want for a mg is fixed long range auto fire, and the MG 3 does it better than the initial  BO mg. The smart gun is another matter. And anyways mg's in general are niche or outrigth bad, so not much point beating a dead horse.

[Juku121]

The BO assault rifle aimed shot is rubbish, aimed shots below 100 acc are not TU efficient.

They are when you get two of them instead of one and the accuracy difference isn't big (as it is the case with the G11 vs BO AR). And with ~120 firing accuracy (this is where my midgame maxed-and-enhanced-and-commended soldiers end up at) the aimed accuracy is tolerable, 90+ at 30 tiles. I'll take two 90+ shots over one 120+ shot from a G11 any day.

This two aimed shots thing is its only advantage over the G11, though, which is why it doesn't compete. OTOH, L85 and FAMAS are only significantly better at aimed shot accuracy. Damage, autofire, two aimed shots, pretty much all the medium-range stuff is notably better.

Also no, the BO rifle isn't the new SVD, they fill different  roles.

What role does the BO rifle fill that isn't covered by the SVD? Pretty much anything else it does, something already does better.

Again compare to the hunting rifle, I don't know why you keep comparing to the auto.

Because of

SVD are much better than the auto sniper  and really shine as reaction fire long range rifles, hiiting like a truck.

I don't know where the Hunting Rifle comes into this.

Regardless in practical terms damage output between the two is very similar with slightly  better armor pen with the auto (and really not that it make much of a difference. 

If you have to shoot your BO Auto-Sniper at something armoured (for some strange reason), there's a significant damage difference. Up to ~50% vs an Armoured Car, for example.

What I'm saying is that if the BO Auto-Sniper also got 3 snaps per turn, it'd be an actual not-insignificant upgrade over the SVD. Whereas you seem to think it'd still be worse?

First of no, the accuracy  bonus while kneeling doesn't  go away at 100+ accuracy as you stated...

Auto-battle tests, hit 'chance' for accuracy 100 soldiers at 30 tiles:

• M-60: Standing: 32%. Kneeling: 48%.
  
• BO LMG: Standing: 36%/32%. Kneeling: 47%/42%.
  

Accuracy 50 soldiers at 30 tiles:

• M-60: Standing: 16%. Kneeling: 24%.
  
• BO LMG: Standing: 14%. Kneeling: 17%.
  

Exactly how is this not 'largely goes away'?

30 (well, 32) tiles is the max range for the GPMGs, too, so it's not as if there's going to be any improvement further out.

Second of all why would you run with your Mg's around? You get assault rifles and the BO smg to do exactly that.

I don't run around all over the map, I take a few steps, turn in another direction, maybe kneel. Any of those means I lose one long burst from the GPMGs, but not the BO LMG. And the GPMG short burst sucks.

Sure snap fire in the BO assault LMg is better, specially while standing, but using this weapons that way is a waste.

Not using it like that at least some of the time means I should have ditched the machine gun altogether and used a sniper rifle instead.

What you want for a mg is fixed long range auto fire, and the MG 3 does it better than the initial  BO mg.

Not really due to the 50% TU requirement. One burst vs two is significant, and enemies don't always line up the way you want them to.

And anyways mg's in general are niche or outrigth bad, so not much point beating a dead horse.

Yeah. But I really want to play like an actual military.


All of this is kinda pointless, though, since I doubt the mod balance will change and we're stuck with semi-useless machine guns, mostly rubbish assault rifles and pistols being better at shooting six bullets a turn at medium range and hitting than machine guns.

[termidor]

What role does the BO rifle fill that isn't covered by the SVD? Pretty much anything else it does, something already does better.

How about consitent damage long range with growing damage with accuracy? unless you consider sniper rifle equal to rifles.

Because ofI don't know where the Hunting Rifle comes into this.

Being better than the auto sniper and the hitting like truck statements are separate . Both are also true: the SVD is better than the auto sniper due to snap shots you already mention AND it hit pretty hard.

If you have to shoot your BO Auto-Sniper at something armoured (for some strange reason), there's a significant damage difference. Up to ~50% vs an Armoured Car, for example.

Check your math, it doesn't add up. Frontally an armored car is 65, 100% kinetic damage taken. At 100 accuracy both the SVD and auto deal 50 damage, with 90% armor effectiveness to 75%. So the SVD is facing 58 armor to the auto 48-49. The difference is thus 10 points of damage. So yeah there may be big relative differences in damage but only on the regions where it matter the less bc you are dealing 5-10 points of damage.

What I'm saying is that if the BO Auto-Sniper also got 3 snaps per turn, it'd be an actual not-insignificant upgrade over the SVD. Whereas you seem to think it'd still be worse?

 
I didn't say that ,ofc with a 3 snap it would be better. Problem would be that it would probably to good, specially bc it gets also accuracy from reaction fire due reasons , so it could probably even outshine the BO sniper rifle (well the SVD holds another small advantage in not having minimun range)

Auto-battle tests, hit 'chance' for accuracy 100 soldiers at 30 tiles:

• M-60: Standing: 32%. Kneeling: 48%.
  
• BO LMG: Standing: 36%/32%. Kneeling: 47%/42%.
  

Accuracy 50 soldiers at 30 tiles:

• M-60: Standing: 16%. Kneeling: 24%.
  
• BO LMG: Standing: 14%. Kneeling: 17%.
  

Exactly how is this not 'largely goes away'?

Because  it ain't? Also are you sure you did the test correct? bc either by testing or by maths I don't get that results

[Juku121]

How about consitent damage long range with growing damage with accuracy?

But the latter is what the SVD does, and what the BO Rifle doesn't. And the former is why I said the BO Rifle is the new SVD, except worse.

Being better than the auto sniper and the hitting like truck statements are separate.

But I already acknowledged this:

Being better might be true, hitting like a truck compared to the BO Auto-Sniper not quite...

I was saying the BO Auto-Sniper hits harder, and you somehow got a Hunting Rifle tangent out of this.

I no longer know what you're arguing for here. What I am saying is that the BO Auto-Sniper hits a a bit harder, which is one of its benefits over the SVD. Not enough to be strictly better, but something (among other things like sniper formula or reaction boost to accuracy).

Check your math, it doesn't add up. Frontally an armored car is 65, 100% kinetic damage taken. At 100 accuracy both the SVD and auto deal 50 damage, with 90% armor effectiveness to 75%. So the SVD is facing 58 armor to the auto 48-49. The difference is thus 10 points of damage. So yeah there may be big relative differences in damage but only on the regions where it matter the less bc you are dealing 5-10 points of damage.

The math does not work that way. These rifles do 25-100 in this situation, not 50 damage. The SVD does 0 damage about twice as often, and thus you can't just use 50, nor even 62.5 damage, for averages.

And if you're dealing 5-10 points of damage, +10 is a world of difference. Although the actual averages are ~11.6 vs ~17.6. 17.6/11.6 is a little over 1.5, about 7-8 hits to kill vs 5-6. Of course, from the rear you get less of an advantage, only about +35% average damage, more heavily armoured units are impervious and for most human enemies it's under +10%, so almost irrelevant.

Problem would be that it would probably to good, specially bc it gets also accuracy from reaction fire due reasons , so it could probably even outshine the BO sniper rifle...

Well, make the Auto-Sniper the snap king with 32% or 33% TU, scale accuracy with 0.005*FIR^2 + 0.005*REA^2, take some of the damage away, perhaps also a bit of armour penetration... That would leave both rifles with a niche while still being an upgrade over historical weapons.

Also are you sure you did the test correct? bc either by testing or by maths I don't get that results

Okay, apparently I was using my own 25% kneeling bonus instead of the vanilla (and mod's) 15%. I thought the BO LMG naturally had 25%, but it appears global changes also get highlighted in the Nerdpedia.

So, redone tests: accuracy 100 soldiers at 30 tiles:

• M-60: Standing: 32%. Kneeling: 48%.
  
• BO LMG: Standing: 34%/30%. Kneeling: 40%/36%.
  

Accuracy 50 soldiers at 30 tiles:

• M-60: Standing: 16%. Kneeling: 24%.
  
• BO LMG: Standing: 12%/10%. Kneeling: 15%/13%.
  

Worse than I thought it was, but still a major closing of the gap. GPMG autofire is indeed noticeably better even with aimbots. Not another auto-shot better, though, so I still say once your soldiers get some solid accuracy and you can't take advantage of the 50% TU autoshots (which is most of the time for me), the BO LMG is better.



As an aside, most of the LMGs sharing the generic kneeling bonus is another way this mod's machine guns get shafted. And that's actually another way you could make sniper rifles more distinct: give the high-end sniper rifles bigger kneeling bonuses while leaving rifles like the Hunting Rifle, SVD, even the Auto-Sniper with lesser boosts.

[Chuckebaby]

The Black Ops Auto Sniper rifle. Once you get your hands on this (with Titranium clips) you can handle almost any enemy except Sectapods and Ethrals. I have also found in some cases, hitting Sectapods from the front (vs. the rear) can have better results.

With Ethrals I have found sometimes they are not even worth the ammo in your gun, if wearing synthsuits, just pop them a few times with some melee action. They go down faster than trying to cap them.

[Juku121]

The BO Auto-Sniper only has the auto-shot over the regular BO Sniper Rifle. Which is kinda inaccurate. I guess at medium-close range the triple-dipping damage and penetration are good enough to be worth trying, but there are also a zillion other weapons with their own perks that work there.

Some other heavily armoured enemies might also make the BO Auto-Sniper not quite cut it. Power armoured enemies like MiB heavies or Gillmen heroes, Muton Obliterators or Reptoid Dragonfire turrets. Not sure any of those are more common than Sectopods, though.

I have no idea how hitting a Sectopod from the front can be better than shooting it in the back. Nearly 50% extra armour, no need to spin and waste TUs while reaction firing back at your agents. What could possibly be the upshot here?

Ethereals are tough against kinetic damage and weak against cutting/stunning, true. Trying to melee them has all the usual drawbacks - RNG bonanza due to their not inconsiderable dodge value, waste TU and energy running up to them, possibly take reaction fire while doing so - plus better chances of being a psi target (snipers can hide for a few turns to wait out the spotting, stabbers really can't due to psi-vision). Shooting them with a plasma or chem weapon is a better idea. Pulse weapons usually come online before Ethereals do.

[Chuckebaby]

The BO Auto-Sniper only has the auto-shot over the regular BO Sniper Rifle. Which is kinda inaccurate. I guess at medium-close range the triple-dipping damage and penetration are good enough to be worth trying, but there are also a zillion other weapons with their own perks that work there.

Some other heavily armoured enemies might also make the BO Auto-Sniper not quite cut it. Power armoured enemies like MiB heavies or Gillmen heroes, Muton Obliterators or Reptoid Dragonfire turrets. Not sure any of those are more common than Sectopods, though.

I have no idea how hitting a Sectopod from the front can be better than shooting it in the back. Nearly 50% extra armour, no need to spin and waste TUs while reaction firing back at your agents. What could possibly be the upshot here?

Ethereals are tough against kinetic damage and weak against cutting/stunning, true. Trying to melee them has all the usual drawbacks - RNG bonanza due to their not inconsiderable dodge value, waste TU and energy running up to them, possibly take reaction fire while doing so - plus better chances of being a psi target (snipers can hide for a few turns to wait out the spotting, stabbers really can't due to psi-vision). Shooting them with a plasma or chem weapon is a better idea. Pulse weapons usually come online before Ethereals do.

Agreed with everything your saying. I've yet to even get to plasma weapons yet.

About the Sectapods, I don't understand it either, I am also aware about their vulnerability to rear armor (at least in the vanilla game) But I am starting to notice more damage hitting from the front at times. Might be the shot, IDK.

[Juku121]

Plasmas are hard to get, but Ethereal shields are very weak to acid/chem, for some reason.

All 4x4 enemies are vulnerable from below, too. More than from the back, usually, and they take 4x the damage on top.

The Sectopod thing might just be RNG. I mean, if you roll high on the frontal attack and low on the backstab, that's what it'd look like.

[AmanitaVerna]

Before I got laser rifles, back when I was mainly facing the cults and monsters, I tended to bring a combination of P90s, UAC Rifles, stun weapons (shotguns, grenade launchers, tactical grenade launchers, or taser cannons), and Asuka 4000s for sniping.

P90s are lightweight and fit in two inventory slots, can be fired many times per turn, and work well against early enemies.

UAC rifles fire three shots every trigger pull and are deadly at close range. They do more per-pellet damage than shotguns, which makes them better against armor. I used them for their ability to do tremendous amounts of damage to enemies at close range, for use on enemies nearby after landing, or when breaching a door or turning a corner etc.

Asukas are a sniper rifle and get damage buffs but iirc from reactions instead of firing accuracy, so they're a little weird. I like them better than the BO sniper rifle mainly because the BO sniper rifle has a 15 tile min range below which it rapidly loses accuracy, and the Asuka doesn't. So agents carrying Asukas can still participate in indoors battles instead of just having to chill outside waiting.

Currently, against aliens and all the things, I'm using a combination of laser rifles (X-Com made, they're better than the alien ones), taser cannons, stun spears against aquatoids to save ammo (because I use power armor and their weapons so far aren't effective against it), sonic blasta rifles if I need high damage, the sonic stun shotgun whose name I forget, and gauss pistols occasionally. I currently can't manufacture gauss weapons or ammo, or sonic weapons or ammo, so I'm trying to conserve my supply, but I like the sonic stun weapon for its ammo capacity and smaller clip size compared to the taser cannon.

[Juku121]

P90s I don't know since I hate the sprite. At a glance, all they really have over the two BO SMGs are the aimed shot and less ammo expenditure, while losing out in the actual SMG niche: moar dakka. Well, a bit of armour penetration, too, which will get offset by alloy ammo. Realistically, they should also do less damage than 9mm weapons, since the 5.7x28 round has an anemic rifle bullet instead of the chunky balls of lead featured in most handgun rounds. But, eh, that discussion's been had.

UAC rifles are real good, no question. Maybe too good, even. I wish their SMGs, shotguns and chainguns also had at least some of the extra dakka, though.

Asukas don't scale as well as other sniper rifles, so you lose the 100+ accuracy at beyond visual range most other dedicated sniper rifles have. Otherwise, it has its perks, as mentioned.

Lasers I've found somewhat disappointing. So many enemies also have at least a bit laser resistance, often rather close to their kinetic resistance as well. They're still among the top rifles TU- and accuracy-wise, but not being able to melt armour into slag has been a bit... unsatisfying.

...I like the sonic stun weapon for its ammo capacity and smaller clip size compared to the taser cannon.

You sure about that?

Enemies also resist stun more often than electric damage, including quite a few underwater creatures. Not Aquatoids nor Deep Ones Gillmen, though; nor to the degree that Taser Cannons would suddenly become competitive.

[AmanitaVerna]

I meant that they are *literally* smaller, being half the size of the giant car battery looking thing the taser cannons use (and have more shots per clip as well).