Large barracks and large vaults are too weak.

[karadoc]

In my first play through, I put a bit of effort into designing my bases in such a way that I could build large barracks and large vaults in the hope that their efficiency would make it worth the effort and initial cost...   and I was punished for it. Since then, I haven't built them every again and I don't intend to. They are cumbersome, and not very effective.

In the early game, the up-front cost and build time makes them an unattractive option. You rarely need that much living space or storage space all in one shot, and it logistically difficult to 'upgrade' from the smaller building to the larger ones. The larger buildings are more efficient in terms of base squares and monthly cost; but the base squares doesn't matter much until the late game, and the monthly cost difference is not great...  If you crunch the numbers, you find that it takes almost 2 years of full usage for a large barracks to match the cost of an an equivalent number of small barracks; and after that you'll be making around 14k profit per month - which is essentially insignificant 2 years into the game.

So, in the early game - they are a poor choice. The upfront costs are too high, the payoff is too low. But that's ignoring what is probably their biggest draw card: base size efficiency. They take up less base space than small barracks / small vaults. ... But in the late game, when base size actually matters, the luxury barracks and armoured vaults are superior. And furthermore, it is far easier to replace the smaller buildings than it is to replace the large ones. So if you build your base with large barracks and large vaults, then you end up losing out on base size as well.


So... for me it is pretty clear that the large barracks and vaults are a waste of time/money/space...   Does anyone have any other thoughts on this? I'm thinking they should probably be buffed so that they are as space efficient as the end-game buildings. After all, it really does take some additional planning to use them at all. They need to be good to justify their use! (Or just remove them from the game and replace them with something else.)

[ivandogovich]

Very good analysis, Karadoc.  I do concur.  I have never ever built them, either.

Some ideas for buffs:

- Same efficiency or better than late game single tile buildings.
- Large Barracks could allow for a minimal amount of improved healing speed adding into the sickbay/surgery complex and effects.
- Large Vaults could allow for a small number of dojo training spaces to allow for some passive improvements.

Otherwise, yeah.  They are just a research gate and time sink.

[legionof1]

The large barracks at least does have some value since luxury barracks are behind an interrogation bottleneck(academy engineer). Present game of mine, year 4 and I've had only one appear. Bad RNG necessitates some meh alternatives.

[khade]

I suspect it goes into the 'not every option is actually great or even good' section.  But it definitely goes into the 'making due with what you've got' section.

[Meridian]

So... for me it is pretty clear that the large barracks and vaults are a waste of time/money/space...   Does anyone have any other thoughts on this?

I agree 100% on what you said... just one more thing:

Luxury Barracks and Armored Vaults have defense value... which is not desired (for me)... it could destroy a valuable boarding party (e.g. Church Cardinal). Because of this one drawback I have stayed with the large alternatives, even though they suck hard. I'd rather build hideout shrouds for unwanted visitors (star gods) and dismantle/rebuild them for wanted visitors (everybody except star gods). Hideout defense is just too juicy (early, mid and late game) to ignore.

[Dioxine]

Lots of words but no math. Large Barracks, an early game tech, gives you 20% living space advantage (plus a bit storage space, worth 1/12 compared to vaults) over normal barracks, for 150% price. Luxury Barracks, mid-late game tech, gives you 16.6% living space advantage over large barracks, for 250% price (140%/370% compared to normal barracks). With vaults, numbers are similar. Is this progression flawed, and if so, what would be a better one?

[karadoc]

I think the progression of those numbers is fine, but that doesn't take into the account fact that the large barracks is a lot harder to use. If it was just a matter of having a more costly and more efficient 1x1 barracks, I'd use that for sure - but that's not what a large barracks is like.

It is much harder to set up a base which uses a large barracks compared to ordinary barracks.

• It takes longer to build, which can become a bottle-neck for new base construction.
• It has a much higher up-front cost, which again delays the building of it.
• It has less flexibility in its placement (because it has to be one big block).

But even with those additional costs, for me the biggest problem is that it is far more difficult to upgrade large barracks to a luxury barracks.

From my own (limited) experience, base squares become very important in the late game - and money becomes plentiful. With the money from a factory (or two) it is not hard to destroy ordinary barracks one by one and replace them with luxury barracks; but destroying a large barracks is far more difficult, because it would mean losing 120 bunks all at once; and the large barracks is more likely to be the only thing connecting parts of the base. In the early game, cost matters and size doesn't - so ordinary barracks win. In the late game, size matters and cost doesn't, so the luxury barracks win. The large barracks are in the middle ground; but they aren't really the best option for anything.

I'm sure there could be interesting balance changes to improve it; but the first thing that comes to my mind is to have the same size efficiency as luxury barracks; and increase the upkeep costs. In that case, luxury barracks would look a lot less attractive, but they would still be useful as an upgrade path for ordinary barracks (and wouldn't have the usability issues of the large barracks).

By the way, I used the attached excel sheet to do a few quick calculations; but from my point of view the main issues are not directly related to the numbers. Its about how and when they are used. I'm just attaching the file because of the "no maths" comment.

[Dioxine]

Your analysis actually points towards an opposite solution - keep size as it is, but make large barracks/stores cheaper, so they appear more attractive in the early period.

[karadoc]

I'd be happy with either approach - just as long as choice with meaningful trade-offs. Low cost counterbalanced by awkwardness and inconvenience sounds fine to me.

(I suppose vaults are a bit different since they can be totally replaced by an army of slaves in the late game.)

[Dioxine]

Still, awkwardness and inconvenience aren't worth a lot compared to better capacity. Large Barracks certainly have a better appeal if you have tons of cash by the time you research it, which is also a possibility.

[yrizoud]

I can mostly speak from playing other mods which include large facilities, but in those, I balk at the investment in terms of required cost up front, and the worse build time adds insult to injury. I mean, the typical build times of vanilla XCOM pushes me to anticipate build times as much as possible. From this point of view, a facility variant costing 400% up front means that by the time I have spared enough to start building the large one, I could have finished and populated 2 small ones, and a third one would be on its way. I find it impossible to consider them for early game, only later when/if I get a massive unpredicted amount of money.

[tylor]

Well, I find them cool and useful, especially on your main base. Price is not that big by the time you research them.
Though I would not mind if their capacity would be a little bit more and or add some other marginal bonus.

[Colonel Rick]

My issue with Vaults in general is how unnecessary they end up being when you get money.  You can just purchase a large quantity of Workers.  They give back 5 inventory space per Worker.