aliens

Author Topic: Equipment for particular troops  (Read 14111 times)

Offline Meridian

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Re: Equipment for particular troops
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2015, 04:58:08 pm »
Nope i do not say that. I say your aim should be to keep them alive, so they get better and not rush them out in the open and zerging your way through, because it might bite you in the ass later.
Screening is not required, since every soldier can reach his statscaps in ~25-30 missions, if he survives.

All depends on your definition of these words.

For me zerging is when your soldiers' life expectancy is 1-3 missions, normal play is when it is 4-25, life expectancy of 25+ missions goes against the game design (in my opinion).

If (for you) life expectancy below 25-30 missions is zerging, and soldiers only become "useful" after that... you play a completely different game, not xcom.

Btw. "every soldier can reach his statscaps in ~25-30 missions" is true only if you abuse various active training procedures... which is absolutely lame. I have a few of such soldiers (even in my current LP) and they are nowhere near reaching all stats caps, not even close. Attached is an example with my best soldier, which survived from the very beginning (Jan 1999, day 1) until now (end of January 2000, almost end game).
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 05:08:59 pm by Meridian »

Offline SIMON BAILIE

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Re: Equipment for particular troops
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2015, 05:19:36 pm »
Yep can agree with Meridian on his point here, the only stats I have maxed out on any troops at present in my current run through of Hardmode expansion v0.93 are tu's, stamina, health, strength and firing accuracy(on a few troops). It helps when armored sectopods take that many hits from your snipers and being near the end of March in the second year. Bravery is always the stat I find very hard and very rare to increase even with training methods(IMHO you're much better to increase psi strength with the advanced option). The picture shows one of my best troops that has survived from the start. The second picture shows my current casualty rate which has been very lucky. I did increase the stat cap on health from 60 to 75 but hardmode IMO is that hard.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 05:23:03 pm by SIMON »

Offline yrizoud

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Re: Equipment for particular troops
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2015, 05:59:03 pm »
Zerging doesn't work for me : In my last TFTD game, an aquatoid reaction-shot (and killed, of course) 3 aquanauts in the same turn, and I still didn't have a visual contact on it. I resorted to what I should have done on the first kill : a blind grenade throw.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Equipment for particular troops
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2015, 07:50:14 pm »
Nope i do not say that. I say your aim should be to keep them alive, so they get better and not rush them out in the open and zerging your way through, because it might bite you in the ass later.
Screening is not required, since every soldier can reach his statscaps in ~25-30 missions, if he survives.

Sorry then, i musunderstood. :)

The engine doesn't favor it... For example, a good scout needs high reactions to move without being shot. But reactions only improve by DOING reaction fire. So basically, your riflemen who stay on overwatch are the only soldiers who become good scouts, while soldiers on scouting duty never improve at all. As a result, you have to rotate your troops if you want to use them to the best of their ability.

A similar issue is caused by low-damage weapons which give more accuracy experience than heavy weapons : Pistol soldiers will become marksmen over time, while the heavy-plasma wielder who snipes across the map will barely improve.

It is true, but not necessarily a bad thing. Changing functions over career is good enough for Space Marines (Scouts -> Devastators /heavies/ -> Assault -> Tactical), so it should be enough for you. :P Sure it makes the idea of total soldier roles go down the drain, but why insist on it?

Offline hellrazor

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Re: Equipment for particular troops
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2015, 08:47:21 pm »
All depends on your definition of these words.

For me zerging is when your soldiers' life expectancy is 1-3 missions, normal play is when it is 4-25, life expectancy of 25+ missions goes against the game design (in my opinion).

If (for you) life expectancy below 25-30 missions is zerging, and soldiers only become "useful" after that... you play a completely different game, not xcom.

Btw. "every soldier can reach his statscaps in ~25-30 missions" is true only if you abuse various active training procedures... which is absolutely lame. I have a few of such soldiers (even in my current LP) and they are nowhere near reaching all stats caps, not even close. Attached is an example with my best soldier, which survived from the very beginning (Jan 1999, day 1) until now (end of January 2000, almost end game).

The only stats which i put into active training with ambushes is reactions, because i consider it a vital one in the survival of  the soldiers. Everything else maxes out over time, as long as they survive.
It also depends greatly on how you play.
I seldomly enter buildings at all, i blow them into pieces then the tank takes a look and everything which dares to survive the use of explosives gets blasted by my Soldiers.
It's a simple tactic and you my think it is a cheap tactic, but it increases your survival rate to a big degree.
Also you do not need to enter most UFO's at all, you can just blast the aliens as they step outside, of course this won't work against some aliens like Ethereals. So it depends.
And killing Mutons with Laser Pistol / Plasma Pistol reactionfire is a pretty decent way to improve your reactions.
And yes this might seem as abuse of the 20 turn aliens move out thing, but they also leave the UFO before turn 20 and when after a couple of turns no else steps out, then i step in and kill them, because i do not want to wait until turn 30+, to end my mission.
If you do a mission right noone dies, you also can improve your survival rate combining strafing and mutual surprise (to safely peak around corners), and set up ambushes yourself.

It also has todo with using the terrain in which you operate to your advantage and think before you move. Never scout with your last soldier, for example, place Proxy grenades on cave entrences and so forth. Or simply blow away half a hill to kill the alien inside the cave.
If your ingame creativity stops at entering buildings, or entering caves, which basically incline a soldier death within a short amount of time, then i can only say you are a poor commander, sorry. I play the game to win, to let my Soldiers survive and if they die, because i was to stupid and did something wrong ok then they are dead, next rookie is waiting to get trained anyway.

If i spot a alien i make sure it dies in the same turn, doesn't always work out that way, but you have various other options, like throwing smoke and obscuring his LOS, or simply pray for a random damage modifier which doesn't give you a instant death.

And the name of my Mod is Hardmode Expansion, not "Hardmode", and it is my first expansion mod i am writing and my first serious introduction to modding, so it is expected that not everything works out the way i wanted it to be, but that is not a big deal, since i can learn and adept.
And if you do not like my Mod ok, so do not play it.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 08:49:09 pm by hellrazor »

Offline Meridian

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Re: Equipment for particular troops
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2015, 10:03:55 pm »
Thanks for the explanation. I have played your mod for a few hours (cca 7-8) and I like it so far. I will definitely continue playing it.

What I don't like is the way how you play the game... with or without your mod, doesn't matter. If I played the way you described here and on many other places, I would have absolutely no fun playing it. But that's only me. Feel free to play anyway you like... I will stop making any comments about it from now on... it creates bad air.

Cheers,
Meridian

Offline hellrazor

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Re: Equipment for particular troops
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2015, 09:38:38 am »
Thanks for the explanation. I have played your mod for a few hours (cca 7-8) and I like it so far. I will definitely continue playing it.

What I don't like is the way how you play the game... with or without your mod, doesn't matter. If I played the way you described here and on many other places, I would have absolutely no fun playing it. But that's only me. Feel free to play anyway you like... I will stop making any comments about it from now on... it creates bad air.

Cheers,
Meridian

Sorry, if i was sounding rude i didn't had that intention its just i got a little bit furious.
And yes everyone can and should play the way how he likes to play, but i like to use the full arsenal and sometimes in a more creative way. If you place yourself some selfmade restrictions that's also ok.
An dyes you can abuse the turn 20 thingy as i already mentioned, even thou i refrain from it by storming most UFO's. And waiting a few turns in front of the UFO in ambush to pick off some enemies and increase your reactions is i think a totally legitimate way, since it reduces the enemies inside.
Well i rather blow buildings into dust then entering them, i already mentioned this. The terrain is destructale for a reason, and the amount of rockets you usually have with your team is rather limited.

If you played my mod and so far liked it, i am glad to hear so. And yes the current avaible Version has some issues regarding money and probably the TU usage of some weapons. I will also put in settings for the usage of UFO Extender accuracy, since i know many people use it. Since i have no experience regarding this i am open for advice, as always.

And before i forget it, my "Supersoldiers" usually are my higher Ranks (if they survive) and the range of soldiers i use goes from rookies, over guys with a couple of missions up towards those. It's interesting since i usually group my soldiers into pairs according TU' and Reactions and shooting accuracy. Somehow the game always gives me 2 Soldiers in each team, which are developing  in the same way, so this works for me pretty well.

Offline hellrazor

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Re: Equipment for particular troops
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2015, 11:08:28 am »
Sorry then, i musunderstood. :)

It is true, but not necessarily a bad thing. Changing functions over career is good enough for Space Marines (Scouts -> Devastators /heavies/ -> Assault -> Tactical), so it should be enough for you. :P Sure it makes the idea of total soldier roles go down the drain, but why insist on it?

Well that depends, take Xenonauts for example. You can asign a Soldier a role, this role specifies a specific equipment set, nothing more. You can change those freely once they are back in base.

You can see it as having the ability ingame, to create multiple "virtual" equipment templates, which you can use on your Soldiers. So you can standardatize your Equipment to some degree, of course factors like Soldier str should be taken into account. It would be cool if you could also use these templates in all savegames, so they needed to be stored seperatly.
You could then also create templates for specific mods and so on.

It is just a convinience.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Equipment for particular troops
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2015, 02:14:35 pm »
Well that depends, take Xenonauts for example. You can asign a Soldier a role, this role specifies a specific equipment set, nothing more. You can change those freely once they are back in base.

But the current subject is not multiple equipment templates, it's about agents' careers. Sure, having several templates would be useful if implemented right, I don't think anyone would oppose to this general idea (though its application presents a lot of challenges and requires design decisions).

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Equipment for particular troops
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2015, 02:33:31 pm »
Hellrazor's farming tactics make me wonder if I shouldn't put a pre-primed 'nuclear bomb' on each UFO engine. Loiter around past Turn 20, you get vaporized :) Wouldn't be a problem for myself since my UFO raids seldomly take over 10 turns.

As for design: l-click on the template save/load buttons would work as now (basically quicksave, quickload). R-clicking would open up a template save/load menu.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 02:36:11 pm by Dioxine »

Offline hellrazor

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Re: Equipment for particular troops
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2015, 02:40:00 pm »
Hellrazor's farming tactics make me wonder if I shouldn't put a pre-primed 'nuclear bomb' on each UFO engine. Loiter around past Turn 20, you get vaporized :) Wouldn't be a problem for myself since my UFO raids seldomly take over 10 turns.

Well, i am usually waiting until all my Soldiers are near the UFO entrance and have regained their Stamina, then i storm. If some Alien step out while i wait sortly then i get reactions training.
A preprimed Nuclear bomb, interesting Idea, but it would also kill all the aliens inside.
I also presume that this would not be possile with vanilla OpenXcom or would it?

As for design: l-click on the template save/load buttons would work as now (basically quicksave, quickload). R-clicking would open up a template save/load menu.

Well thats sound reasonable, for a design i guess.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Equipment for particular troops
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2015, 02:50:57 pm »
A preprimed Nuclear bomb, interesting Idea, but it would also kill all the aliens inside.
I also presume that this would not be possile with vanilla OpenXcom or would it?

Nope, currently you need Extended to put pre-primed explosives on the map.
And actually it'd have to be 2 bombs at least: first to destroy UFO's superstructure and kill aliens, second one to destroy all the loot and erase what's left of the UFO, so you'll get no Alien Alloys from the raid. The radius can be contained to 15-20 tiles or so, so you can still survive if you flee to your craft (which is indestructible/immune to explosions anyway) or to the other end of the map. Possibly 3-4 variants of the map, with bombs set to 19, 20, 21 or 22 turns.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 02:53:22 pm by Dioxine »

Offline Yankes

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Re: Equipment for particular troops
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2015, 09:14:24 pm »
Nope, currently you need Extended to put pre-primed explosives on the map.
And actually it'd have to be 2 bombs at least: first to destroy UFO's superstructure and kill aliens, second one to destroy all the loot and erase what's left of the UFO, so you'll get no Alien Alloys from the raid. The radius can be contained to 15-20 tiles or so, so you can still survive if you flee to your craft (which is indestructible/immune to explosions anyway) or to the other end of the map. Possibly 3-4 variants of the map, with bombs set to 19, 20, 21 or 22 turns.
One bomb, with overkill, damage overflow to items in inventory. No items, no corpse, no traces. Perfect evaporation.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Equipment for particular troops
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2015, 09:23:55 pm »
The theory is flawless, but 2 bombs work simpler & 99% as effectively :)