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Messages - Alazar

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Let's do a bit better damage modeling than just picking 3 random rolls of 0-200% to analyze. I ran 10,000 simple simulations for each weapon and averaged them to get the expected damage for each case. That is, I made 10,000 dice rolls of 0 to 46*2 for the power roll of the warp rifle and 10,000 of 0 to 120*2 for the sonic cannon, then subtracted off 10 armor for the rifle and 100 armor for the cannon. In the end I found the averages:
  • Warp Rifle: 36.475 dmg
  • Sonic Cannon: 40.946 dmg

So raw damage the sonic cannon wins out by a little bit, but it will be less reliable (101/241 shots will do 0 damage vs 11/92 for the rifle) and doesn't shoot as fast. If you double the armor to 200, the warp rifle does even better:
  • Warp Rifle: 28.155 dmg
  • Sonic Cannon: 3.304 dmg

Thanks for more detailed calculations.
Now a bit of armor info on targets. The highest armor value I found is for Dragonfire turret front which is 175, but it also has 50% warp damage resist vs 75 concussive.
Second best I think is Obliterator with 100 armor and again it has 50% warp resists vs 80% concussion.

I just cant see how warp weapons can be broken here, when most armored targets have 50% warp damage resists, which cuts end damage to 50%. Taking your average calculated damage for 100 armor and applying resist stat we get:
Warp rifle: 18,2
Sonic Cannon: 32,8
Yep, warp rifle totally broken, as in unusable.

Besides, how often do you run into Obliterators and Dragonfire turrets?
Solarian mentioned MiB heavies, they have no resist from warp and concussion damage, so again, sonics do better job at disposing them.
Sure, SC is slower for snap shots, but aimed shots? You joke?
There is no way I can call it unreliable. Why? Concussion damage is not affected by 0% rng roll (check screenshots below), it deals damage always. So in your calculations number of 0 damage shots for Sonic cannon is 0, unless completely blocked by armor.

...excuse me?

Code: [Select]
      ArmorEffectiveness: 0.1

Your turn, pal. :P

Lets do math. I dont know the real damage formula so I will make up a simple and logical "xyz" where x- weapon damage, y-%multiplier from 0 to 200 (X-Com rng), z-armor, which will look like "x*y-z" for most, except warp which looks like "x*y-z*0,1"
I am taking flat damage with no resists. Taking most powerful single shot guns, so lategame Warp Rifle with 46 and Sonic Cannon with 120. Armor value will be 100 (I agree that with armor value 120+ SC starts struggling, but there is just not that many enemies with such values).
If you have real damage formula I would love to see it.

SC: 120*1-100=20
WR: 46*1-100*0,1=36
Cool, no questions here, warp is better. Lets go 150.

SC: 120*1,5-100=80
WR: 46*1,5-100*0,1=59
Top tier warp weapon is already loosing to midgame sonic, lets see 200.

SC: 120*2-100 =140
WR: 46*2-100*0,1= 82
Lets see... 58 damage difference in SC favor.  So yeah, dont feel that damage on warps. When we take specific damage resists in considirations yeah, warp can shine, but in most common combat scenarios and common enemies like Sectoids(Hi, purple anti warp shield), Hybrids(Hi, purple anti warp shield), Snakememes even god damn cursed Watchers, sonics have more chances to overdamage warps, even with TFDF damage system 50-150.
So warp weapon is like "low luck = more damage" weapon where the less your random % luck them harder you hit.

Indeed you can to a degree; hell, even the early double-barreled shotgun has pretty long range. But a sonic shotgun is not guaranteed, it depends on your decisions; also it's fairly later compared to Dimension X disruptors.
Aheh, no, you get em earlyer, you get the military sonic tech from researching hacked military computers, which in turn you get from "Cyberweb attacks military base" missions, which is earlyer than Dim.X, so you go to Dim.X with sonic miniguns and shotguns.
It is possible to skip some research stages in early game if you are lucky with early random UFOs and get the "Sonic adjustments" to be able to craft sonic shotgun and minigun. Also you get quite a lot of Zrbite from Osiron, so ammo is not that big of a problem.

Sonic weapons don't ignore 90% of armour. Sorry to be blunt, but I can't really see how you can conveniently skip this "little detail" and hope for your argument to be taken seriously.

Warp weapons also dont(I know you will say they do) as far as I felt when I used em and sonics disposed targets in less shots than disruptors, even heavily armored like cyberdisks, obliterators, sectopods and centurions. Unless they have some specific hiddens values that are not listed in game, cause I dont know coding and which values to look for.

By the way, Warp resistance is rogughly inversely proportional to how heavy/dense the target is: lighter, unarmoured targets get better resistances.
I know, but so far the only enemy that is weak vs warp weapons is yours truly X-Com agents.

You can also win a million in a lottery, this is not an argument to be used in home economy. ;)

No, seriously, these are ultra-rare compared to disruptors. If you get them anyway, congrats, you found a better solution. It it's a rare occurrence. (Ifsomeone disagrees, feel free to tell.)

Well guess I am just that lucky :D  From 13 crates in one mission I pulled out 3 plasmas and 2 hydros and 2-1 from all next raids.

Then don't use them, doh. It's not liek everone must use everything.

Thats the problem, I want to use em, but they are overshadowed just by everything else in lategame arsenal, that I just slap heavy plasma and plasma devastators, heavy sonics and sonic pulsers and start blasting.

I would agree here, but the shotgun has a different combat role, for example you can't snipe with it.

Actually you can, you can craft focused shot modules, even if they are 1 shot per clip, they are the definition of aimed shot, also Sonic shotgun snap has insane range and accuracy, UAC rifle smoke nearby jealously.

Depending on how valid this critique is, warp weapons fall under specialized equipment to a lesser or greater degree. I personally don't think that they're extremely specialized, but it's just my personal opinion - frankly I haven't played XCF all that much, because when I have time, I'd rather mod.

I love X-Com and this mod specifically, so I play it a lot, this is why I rose this question up. You got numbers, I got live gameplay and its definately feels a lot different from your numbers and what you say judging from them.

The X-Com Files / Re: Monsters like Kaiju
« on: January 24, 2020, 06:07:53 am »
The problem is that there's a limit on how far we can go with this concept. What is OK in the ocean depths of 2040s isn't necessarily good when it shows up in the air around 2000.

The idea might get more traction with Reptoids, which are planned to be rather blatant and uninterested in all this conspiracy crap.
Well, T'leth also got krumped 40 years earlyer in this time line, as well as X-Com got their tech, which they will totally forget 40 years later.  ;D

I am trying to look at things from various perspectives, but there's no way in hell I would ever consider warp weapons weak. They are absolutely broken.
Uhhh.. No... They are weak, all 3. Here are defense values for some enemies against Warp damage (lower value = more resistant):
Cyberdisk 50%, Cyberweb sphere 50%, Corruption(Dim.X purple bubble thingy) 40%, Silacoid 80%, Celatid 50%,  Etherial 60%. Quite common enemies.

Compare em to Sonic weapons which you get around same time (After you beat the crap out of Church of Dagon). I also checked armor values for quite a lot of enemies and only ones that are resistant to Sonics(expl damage), are TFTD ones, they have biggest resists. Only one who is weak to warp weapons are Lobsterman, cause 200% Warp damage.
Btw Sonic weapons stay effective the whole game.

Also, these weapons can fall into your hands pretty early, so comparing them to plasma, or even lasers, is unfair by definition.
Wrong, you get induction plasma canon (MP-40 looking gun,55 plasma dam) and Hydra laser(38 las.dam) at about same time from Osiron.

I fail to see how short range is a problem.
Its just my ranting, but accuracy is.

Now it's possible to make a Boomeroid, but it wasn't when I introduced it (and I mostly ripped it from Robin anyway). I am rather satisfied with how it works, but might change it in the future if a fancy strikes me.
This is awesome.

Agreed that these weapons dry up, this is by design - they can help you carry some mid-game missions before you get the good stuff. They're also useful in special situations.
BTW: in late game, you can find another brand of warp weapons.
I have it, still weak.

How do you know the shield only had 20 points? I can't think of any way to check it. It's definitely less than the minimum value for an undamaged Sectoid shield, which is 50.
Well I took hybrid shield values, so yeah, my mistake, but sometimes this happens with hybrids too, they even keep shield after getting shot.

Again, sorry but I just don't understand your position. I consider disruptor weapons absolutely OP, which is why they are so rare. But the plethora of weapons in the mod exists so that anyone could like or dislike certain types, so I think it's OK.
Sonic weapons > Warp weapons
Sonic shotgun for example 55x6 expl damage. Pretty much oneshots most of enemies, even heavily armored.
Heavy Sonic cannon (sonic minigun) 90 expl damage per pellet, 7 rounds burst.
Sonic cannon 120 expl damage, rifle 95, pistol 80.
We are shooting grenade damage here, against which most enemies have no listed damage resist and these numbers just trump 33,44 and 46 warp damage. This whole "ignores armor" is just irrelevant when it does actually not (look armor values above). Warp weapons are absolete already when you get them.

The X-Com Files / Re: Alien Key decyphering
« on: January 23, 2020, 05:35:41 am »
Thanks for the hint, got the research done.

The X-Com Files / Alien Hunting Party suggestion.
« on: January 22, 2020, 04:14:45 am »
I dont recall the correct name of the mission, but I think I named it correctly. Its quite a rare mission which happens in jungle tiles and has 2-3 anthropod hunters. This name is wasted potential. Why? I really was expecting yautja hunters instead of dummy anthropods. :'(

Why not make a "Predator" scenario? You did "The Thing" I am sure making "Predator" would be cool thing to do, heck even "Aliens vs Predator" movie scenario can work too, I know it will take a lot of effort to draw Yautja and xenomorph sprites, but I am sure  you can find people that would be hyped making such uniq sprites for uniq scenario.

This mod is really awesome, totally want to see more solid content in it.

Ever tried EMP grenades and Warp based weapons from Dimension X? Also acid grenades work well to strip armor.

The X-Com Files / Re: Shogg Lantern vs Flashlight
« on: January 21, 2020, 04:28:22 pm »
You're wrong. Flashlights also don't turn off, when on the ground. Whether you drop or throw them.
Worst of all, unlike flares they are turned on by default and so they illuminate your landing zone, if you leave them in your stash. (Never bring more, than you intend to equip on your soldiers.)

The advantage of flashlights over normal flares is, that they illuminate a greater area. And you can use them as a weapon.
So trace flares make them obsolete, in my opinion, if you can ever make enough.
My mistake about flashlights, but now we have "115 flares". Besides, you love charging headon with a flashlight? Kinda useless feature imo.
Also I absolutely hate using any kind of illumination, and now thanks to "Owl" rewards I dont need to bother about vision range, besides aliens dont have that big advantage in NV in X-Com1, unlike TFTD where you need to nearly bump into aliens to see them.

The X-Com Files / Re: Monsters like Kaiju
« on: January 21, 2020, 06:23:40 am »
There are ancient terrors in TFTD mod TwOTS, they appear on map like USOs and roam aimlessly, also they have uniq sprites when you check target visuals, looks cool, so I am sure making something like that lategame here is a good idea, cause you know, having 3 alien infested countries and shooting down 7+ alien crafts each day isnt exactly subtle. Its like aliens launching an Overspawn on Mega Primus  in X-Com apocalypse.

I feel those weapons are severely underpowered. Why? Just look X-Com Apocalypse. Description says that warp weapons ignore armor, I cant feel that. 44 warp damage feels a lot weaker than 50 laser damage or plasma damage for example.

Acid damage is absolutely useless due to limited range of shot and accuracy of weapons utilising it, excluding dimension X acid spitting grenade, that thing is somehow ignoring all those armor values.

When you close Dimension X arc, you are cut off from warp tech weapons till nearly endgame, also you dont get the most usefull grenade anymore, Bumeroid (though originaly its a sentient landmine, but I suppose coding it in is a too hard for OXCE).

Sonic pulser (120 expl damage) > Plasma grenade (90 expl damage (Why not 90 plasma damage?))

Sectoids surviving 150 kintetic damage from Heavy Gauss with a 20 unit purple shield?

P.S.: I know the damage formula is weird in X-Com 1\2, but sometimes its just absurd.

The X-Com Files / Re: Shogg Lantern vs Flashlight
« on: January 21, 2020, 05:43:21 am »
You can throw Shogg lantern and it will still work, unlike flashlight. Works similar to flares but reusable after mission ends. Also, whats the point of both? Flares are the way to go.

The X-Com Files / Alien Key decyphering
« on: January 20, 2020, 12:27:52 pm »
I constantly run into a problem where I cant get this research done, because I dont get some researches for it even though I did all interrogations to point where I cant even interrogate anyone anymore. Also often I get duplicated info after interrogations.
All this places the game in a dead end, where you cant free any country from alien control.

Slapping a save file for dev to take a look. I interrogated to max all Sectoids, all MiB and all Hybrids.

OXCE Bugs FIXED / Re: TFTD Seg. error, again.
« on: January 05, 2020, 02:41:45 am »
Thanks, you're awesome!

OXCE Bugs FIXED / [FIXED] TFTD Seg. error, again.
« on: January 04, 2020, 10:08:11 am »
Ok so I found the previous post on this problem marked as fixed. Now its up again.

Each time I get to second stage of alien base\artifact site, I get a seg. error and crash right after game saves.
This does not happen on liner missions. Also game crashes with seg. error when I try to pick up a stunned alien.

Using OXCE 6.3 + The world of terrifiying silence mod. Note: Game has same problems even without mod.

Dropping some saves and log.
Geosave is 1st day of month will spawn a, also a base is to the left of it on other side of land. Save is with the TwOTS mod.

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