Messages

46

XPiratez / Re: Tips on the Jack Sparrow difficulty?

« on: December 26, 2023, 12:18:01 am »

Because I cared about JS a year ago) It was fun.
Except the ninja part. It totally wasn't fun.

47

The X-Com Files / units_XCOMFILES.rul: What exactly unit intelligence and aggression mean

« on: December 26, 2023, 12:01:39 am »

As a new masochist user of the Brutal OXCE, I strive to provide insights on how BAI should work with global mods. My experience as a player of vanilla OXCE spans over six years with X-Piratez and XCF, and I'm always excited to learn new things.

Recently, different player reported an issue with BAI chryssalids not behaving optimally in open terrain melee situations. I suggested tuning the AI options to consider modder-set intelligence and aggressiveness options, which BAI can already do. However, while looking into the units RUL file, I realized that unit intelligence may not be that straightforward. For example, ethereals may have an intelligence level of 3, while snakemen can have 7, some stormtroopers may have 1, while megascorpions may have 2, and chryssalids have 4 etc.

So my question is whether the intelligence and aggressiveness numbers are on a strict scale from 0 to 10, where 0 represents degenerate behavior and 10 represents battlefield genius, or if they are just markings of presets for a behavioral frameworks that doesn't correlate with the actual gradation (bigger number doesn't mean smarter). The same question applies to aggressiveness numbers. Is it possible that the number is a preset, and actual aggressiveness relies on something else?

Currently, BAI uses intelligence and aggressiveness as markers for how units should behave and how many wrong moves the AI makes. Xilmi has included BAI options that take into account what modders assigned to units in UNITS.RUL in regard to their aggro and intel. However, if the aggressiveness and intel are not straightforward like in BAI, balance could be pretty broken.

Let me explain: right now BAI uses intelligence and aggressiveness as own markers for:
- how units should behave (0 aggro = more cover and ambush, 1 = careful fight, 2 aggro = balanced fight, 3 = careful push, 4 aggro = push no matter what) - how many wrong moves AI makes (0 intel = can do not-optimal move/shot, or even stay open, to 5 intel = each move/shot is a move towards battle won).
When the combined option is enabled, BAI reduces baseline numbers and pluses portion of the numbers which are set by modders, respectfully. Then, unit with intel 9 (like, ghost) under ruleset will behave as most sentient, and unit with intel 1 (like, magma cosmonaut, obliterator, crocs and other guys) will make far more mistakes.

48

Brutal AI / Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1

« on: December 25, 2023, 10:06:30 pm »

Xilmi, I overviewed the units RUL file and found few inconsistencies regarding intelligence numbers.
A sub-conclusion is: intelligence in RUL file may not correlate with 0-10 scale, but rather represents some abstract behavioral model. I mean, that int =1 doesn't mean that creature is stupidier than one with int = 6, it might be just some other decision-making framework.
Have to ask someone more knowledgeable about the topic.
Also, same little trouble may be with unit aggrassiveness in the Rul file, too. 

UPD: FYI created the topic in X-COM-FILES subforum
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,11706.msg160301.html#msg160301

49

Brutal AI / Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1

« on: December 25, 2023, 09:57:04 pm »

I think that units, no matter how unmatched they are, should fight with their ranged weapons, unless they are melee units, and only consider melee if they think they can survive the next turn (hit and run) or can't run away.

But I don't want to enable BAI for brutes either. Having monsters hide behind obstacles indefinitely and then rush out and unleash 500 hits when you take one wrong step is no fun either. It's especially bad when you face monsters so tough you can't deal with them at the start of the game, that they just rush you and kill you.
But I also kinda want brutes to have some BAI features, cause right now they just walk around in circles and don't know what to do. If you have a flying unit you can just herd them and that feels off with such powerful units as Chryssalids.


An other problem with inconsistency I have is with Chasers. From the first turn they just rush you with no regards to survival. And if one of them has the mighty egg launcher it's really bad. Add to this the absurd amounts of units in XCF. I'm not sure how to deal with this other the just blindly run out from the spawn and try to hide, or if possible try to spread bombs, but running around with pre primed bombs is bad. But if you can survive 2 or 3 turns, then they tend to become really cowardly.
In one ship mission only a few spawned outside the ship and got killed. The rest inside the ship, 10+, just decided to cover in fear or something, and camp the door. Not very Chaser like behavior and they got a rocket for it.

On the other hand, this behavior works very well for Hybrid bases. The assaults come rushing forth while the rest do a more careful approach. It feels really nice and the only problem again is the huge amount of units at the start.

For Cryssalids there should be something new, but zombies worked as intended in my previous playthrough under BAI 7.12.1, mean they roar and attack just like it was in vanilla (thx for Xilmi to arrange them).
Cryssalids are supposed to me more sentient, but they still a smart biological-terrorism weapon, thus they should attack. Hide and attack. Or rush and attack.
I guess we should look into their RUL profile.
There are few chryssalids, lol.

The one we probably look at is:
 - type: STR_CHRYSSALID_TERRORIST
    race: STR_CHRYSSALID
    rank: STR_LIVE_TERRORIST
    stats:
      tu: 110
      stamina: 140
      health: 96
      bravery: 100
      reactions: 70
      firing: 0
      throwing: 0
      strength: 110
      psiStrength: 50
      psiSkill: 0
      melee: 80
    armor: STR_CHRYSSALID_ARMOR
    standHeight: 21
    kneelHeight: 16
    value: 40
    deathSound: 9
    intelligence: 4
    aggression: 2
    energyRecovery: 40
    livingWeapon: true
    builtInWeaponSets:
      - - STR_CHRYSSALID_WEAPON

Livingweapon: true is same for a number of creatures, most of which are wild creatures, like megascorpions and even zombies. I'm not sure, but isn't this flag enabled makes possibility of brutal brutes on/off switch?

Chryssalid itself shouldn't be running back and forth, but rather do it's stuff around, like running from building to building, looking for a target. It also has good intelligence, meaning it can hide. And aggression is quite low, meaning on average it waits, rather than approaches itself from other side of the map.

My advise here will be switching to Aggressiveness mode = 2, and further options 1/2.
I would also somehow separate chryssalids from low-int creatures to make them really fear-bringing heartstoppers.
Probably we should ask Sol how exacly chryssalids should be represented with BAI in particular.

50

Brutal AI / Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1

« on: December 25, 2023, 01:49:18 pm »

Hi Xilmi!
I downloaded the new release and gaze into new aggressiveness settings.
Have no single idea what to set as EA numerator and denominators.
Tried to read it carefully, but my end-of-the-year-final-reports-fucked-up brain cannot comprehend what these variables do.
Can you explain this on fingers?

The aggression-mode-setting now has only the option to multiply unit-aggression with the baseline-aggressiveness instead of replacing it. This way the baseline-aggressiveness can be adjusted to the aggression-values used within the mod to produce the desired results. For example if 2 is supposed to be the avarage balanced behavior the baseline-aggressiveness should be set to 1 over 2.

UPD.

So I set
Aggressiveness mode = 2 (to use Leeroys flags)
Numenator = 1
Denominator = 2
And some units go more aggressive, while others are more cautious?

In XCF only zombies, cybermites and pinky demons (doom fractions) have Leeroy flags.
And, I guess, Leeroy flags there means they just push straightforward no matter what.
And, You have the Brutal brutes option, which if set NO, sets all inventoryless creatures to vanilla behavior.
Does that mean setting Aggressiveness mode = 2 (to use Leeroys flags) in XCF is pointless, as it directly interferes the NO to brutal brutes? Or I am getting something wrong?

What is aggression in vanilla OXCE? Isn't it some sort of modificator which shows how often unit will decide to attack, given an opportunity? Vanilla 0-10 gradation represents chances for when unit will decide to move somewhere instead of performing an attack?

Minotaur with flamethrower has ruleset aggression =5 , is not brute. Thus with abovementioned settings, it will be more pushy other then defensive, but still sometimes take cover, right?
Cybermite is Leroy, but has aggressiveness = 2, thus supposed to be more careful, but still doesn't take cover. I can't comprehend it.

Also when you guys play quick combat, which race do you play against? I found that even slight variation in alien toughness has very significant effect on the combat. Six soldiers have enough firepower to fend off six Gillmen but six Lobstermen will just cut through them as hot knife through butter just because they cannot be killed in one turn.

Keep exploring the depths of OXCE mechanics! My advise is pretty the same - go play either XCF or XPZ and get used to what ppl did across last 10 years, how they workout the balance and introduce different instruments to deal with specific enemies.
Like, in megamods lobsterman are very susceptible to toxic gas weapons and grenades, because LORe says they have... gills? Ingenious, right? One grenade can instantly kill or down 20 lobstermans. 

51

XPiratez / Re: Tips on the Jack Sparrow difficulty?

« on: December 25, 2023, 01:26:08 pm »

This is untrue, please do not provide false information. On JS, the Ninja War autostarts by default.

Oh, I don't particulary care about JS. Because JS was just "sort of challenging" option back 2-3 years ago, and then, when ninja mechanics were initially introduced, all fucked up due to scoring imbalance.
X-Piratez were famous for literally every mission being doable from the literal beginning. And then Dioxine said that he makes JS hellish nightmare just to punish autists who flatter themselves by showing how they beat highest difficulty (whoa).
And he did so not by making overall balance more tough, but by introduction of spreading disaster. And then, after people like we started yelling about such "unfair" circumstances, nerfed the punishment a bit.

My solution is: Brutal AI + difficulty below JS. It gives significant push to all enemies, not just ninjas, while still keeps geoscape balance close to adequate.
And also, try playthrough without savescum, it will also surprise you how one single mission can fuck up 2 weeks of progress)

52

Brutal AI / Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1

« on: December 23, 2023, 09:27:00 pm »

Cause all this happened with melee, no shooting.

Melee tactics are all being discussed, so if you have a suggestion of optimal behavior in this particular case - it's most welcome. Right now no other than hide and ambush was proposed. 
Personally, I think one single optimal model for BAI tactics is not good, so boosting melee strategy in one condition (closequarters) will lead to decrease of melee efficiency in different (open field).
BTW which version of BAI did you use?

53

Brutal AI / Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1

« on: December 23, 2023, 11:13:07 am »

Hi! What a nice weekend) Let's talk a bit, if you don't mind:

1) Is what being discussed above means that BAI knows whether you drop something on ground and marks this as enemy position?
If yes, then would it be within line of sight or everywhere on the map?

2) I read the statement about snipers. This is one of particular winning strategies for players. There is bunch of them, and I can't believe BAI can adapt to every single one.
Like, your initial intention so AI avoids proximity grenades = minus one strategy for player.
Human's brain is a thing that tries to crack and abuse any (pseudo)winning mechanic both in game and IRL.

3) How would AI understand that it's push time? It has to peek, otherwise the active battle map transforms into trap/puzzle, which is worst experience from the player's perspective. Personally, I would agree to play if they will not exceed 20-30% times overall.

4) Look at the scenario: 15 units came in craft, 2 are out, others are standing inside behind the doors (let it be Triton). What 20 enemies will do? Will BAI estimate overall enemy amount as 2? Will it push? Or AI knows that 15 units came and will run for cover from turn 1?

5) This particular question is quite important, because what else will make player feel that it plays vs sentient AI otherwise than chess-AI. The chess-AI leaves worst and most disgusting taste after each battle, steals fun.   

6) I would still leave nerfed option for near-casual players, only because it's already there.
Thus you will allow play SH (what most prefer because it is better for overall gameplay progress. More enemies = more experience to soldiers, better scores, more loot).

The change to how intelligence works is basically a shift from low intelligence causing occasional massive blunders to low intelligence causing inaccuracies

Well, that's fair. But let me represent literally everyone here on forum: All-hiding is boring! We want random strategies!

7) What do you think, can you split enemies on the single map into BAI units and vanilla units? This will make more sense in terms of overall efficiency. Vanilla units do what the do in vanilla game (doubtful effectiveness, yet still makes heat), BAI units do what they do as intended.
They share vision, may it even sometimes be sniper-spotter vision. 
This approach may work a little bit better than BAI makes blunders itself.
The amount of VAI/BAI may be random.
The VAI/BAI control may be static or random too.
Each mission makes unique experience. Some are easier, some are tougher.
Players never guesses what comes next.
Surplus here that initial enemy units layouts can be whatever from "all covered inside somewhere" to all standing around your Humvee, facing you with RPG's in their hands.

Have you had time/curiosity to see the Osiron Hacienda save?
It is wonderful map for AI to take multiple strategies, all winning. Both covering inside and sturming player's positions with massive attack.

9) Do you think it worth effort to teach BAI to estimate storming possibility/efficiency by measuring amount of bullets and DPS player caused within first 2-4 turns?

UPD.
I want to propose you a thing, that will draw additional attention: silenced/loud weapons mechanic. This is purely AI mechanic. Right now there's no such presented.
Loud reveals the area of possible player unit location, while silenced makes AI understand they under siege, still not knowing where exactly enemy is. Could be good thing to brainstorm the logics.

54

Brutal AI / Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1

« on: December 23, 2023, 12:37:11 am »

The old one led to the AI being severely nerfed and playing a lot worse.

Well, it would have been comparable to vanilla AI on 40% random on the battle output, if not grenades.
60, 80, 100% randomness were completely useless options, in this regard.
I found it quite challenging to play SH/Ironman vs 20% random, which I switched to after some adaptation. And 100% intel is unbeatable in long term.

I would play vs 100% BAI on a map  with unit ratio 1:2 - 1:2,5, but when it comes to 1:4 it is getting too troublesome. So dismission of this option solely affects SH players, while other difficulties are affected much less.
So,
- I would still leave it, but marked as *only 100% BAI reports accepted*
make randomness quantity more narrow, from 0 to 40, with increment 10. 
- 20% means that 80 out of 100 still kill you, while 20 do things.
 BTW, battle vs human fractions ends when ~20% enemies are left and leaders are killed.
 - And while initial number of 100 enemies with even 40% randomness gives the significant push, further AI power dissipates quite rapidly. This is what I disliked, despite the good effect of few first turns.
A couple of options to maintain the combat potential of BAI in case of randomness stays:
- hard binding of random units (mean they are useless dummies until the endo of the battle)
- or decrement of randomness upon battle goes on: 40% in the beginning - 30% turn 3, 20% turn 5, 10% turn 7, min cap is selected by player.

55

The X-Com Files / Re: The X-Com Files - 3.1: Lights in The Sky

« on: December 22, 2023, 10:10:39 am »

They are smarter and therefore leave their warehouse with a bunch of questionable things without a watchman.))

No, they watch. From the opposite house. Smart approach.

56

XPiratez / Re: Tips on the Jack Sparrow difficulty?

« on: December 22, 2023, 12:46:16 am »

As far as I know, Ninja war starts only when you do a related research project.
Which is called "Ninja War", or something like that. At least, it was so in the N5 version, which I played last.
Previously, indeed, it was quite challenging to deal with ninja war, as Dioxine introduced them hardcoded and JS difficulty spawned them quite in large numbers and strong score penalties. M-series releases, I think?

Anyway. Go the the X-Piratez matrix chat and ask ppl there.
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,10381.0.html
This particular X-Piratez forum is 80% abandoned.

And don't even try to install X-Piratez on Brutal OXCE with all this input

57

Brutal AI / Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.0

« on: December 22, 2023, 12:32:08 am »

Brutal-OXCE 7.13.0 - Smoother aggressiveness progression

Hi Xilmi!
Thank you for the newest release!
I've got too much work to do before the NY, but want to play vs new BAI scoring levels badly.
How can you estimate new intelligence options, compared to old ones?
And... Actually, why won't you make some subthemes in forum?
Changelog section only, will show the amount of work you've done.

Cheers!

58

Brutal AI / Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.12.2

« on: December 19, 2023, 04:17:17 pm »

Actually, quite curious if anyone is playing BAI in vanilla ruleset for FUN?

I think, <5% players. Better ask platform owners, if they have such reports.
Most come for megamods, because they have enhanced content + social promoting works quite nice. Dioxine has had a couple of positive reviews of X-Piratez back in 2014 (?).
Some come in nostalgy of original X-COM, but then also leave as megamod players (see above).
Btw I quite suggest you to see https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/board,27.0.html
Finnik makes something unique and you can share your splattering energy with him, if. Because this has potential of "by developing completely new gameplay design"

59

Brutal AI / Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.12.2

« on: December 19, 2023, 12:09:29 am »

Now I am thinking out loud how this can be balanced back with AI getting smarter.

You have 3 options:
- just like in any megamod introduced out there. By increasing the challenge curve according to player's progress;
- by starting equal;
- by developing completely new gameplay design

60

The X-Com Files / Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?

« on: December 18, 2023, 05:53:47 pm »

2) Power suits from captured MiB heavy troopers. Also one from captured Gillman Hero at undersea city.

BTW how do you capture heavy troopers? The most painless way?