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The X-Com Files / Re: The X-Com Files - 1.8: The Shores of Hell
« on: April 09, 2021, 12:19:21 pm »You bring this up a couple of times as kind of an end-all argument for why this is should be "unrealistic" - because time, apparently.
It's interesting how time should be a factor preventing this because it is "unrealistic", yet X-Com can somehow churn out ground breaking scientific discoveries (i.e. reverse-engineer magic, practically), unmask massive cult structures and conspiracies and get "promoted" from a low-key "nut case" organiziation to having full operational control of fighter jets and what can only be described as weapons of mass destruction (of alien origin on top of that) in a time-span of what, twelve months? Eighteen months? Two years?
Why, exactely, should similar feats in regards to rogue states be unrealistic? X-Com can convince "the UN" to grant them total operational authority to act on an outside threat, but can't convince them to act similarily on a threat on the inside because it would take too long?
On that account, why is money being unrealistic only a factor if it supports your argument? Going back to your earlier statement, X-Com only has "a couple of millions", which according to you is not enough to bribe anyone "in reality". Also, "a couple of millions" is apparently enough to fund an international para-military organization, pay for hundreds of engineers, scientists and soldiers. Also, for bases and ground-breaking research, cars, planes, jets, helicopters, missiles, canons, miniature tanks...
Remind me, again, why X-Com shouldn't be able to bribe a government official with "a couple of millions". Or, for that matter, with any of the artifacts, technology etc. that the organization has recovered. Like I said earlier, money isn't even the only thing X-Com has to offer.
Oh, like the "countless deaths" your shady deals with MAGMA result in? Elerium bombs in residential areas, assassinations, unstoppable raids, chemical contaminations - seems to me like X-Com is ethical flexible enough to turn a blind eye if the organization profits from it, seeing how it does not intervene.
Yes, X-COM can do such things in short span of time, because its the convention of established world. X-COM and thus X-COM Files resides in an established world where people act like people, goverments generally act like governments (with conspiracy theories spice). While reverse-engineering magic only requires 100 scientists and few months doesn't suddently have to mean that they can stage a coup and create ressistance in a weekend.
Both our statements go with the "realistic" approach, you argue it is, I argue it isn't. But would it be realistic for literally 5 different invading forces to start their conquering in the same time, while each and every being weak enough to not be able to stage full-on invasion? Aliens who travelled atleast dozen of light years can't just straight up invade Earth. Aliens who sit on Earth underwater since dawn on dinosaurs can't just immediately overwhelm all Earth's forces despite having all of that time to prepare. Kinda-aliens who sit in the underground for Kane knows how much can't just invade Earth, while having even more time than T'leth aliens had. Interdimentional aliens who travel between dimentions can't just straight up beat pre-2000 Earth forces straight-on.
It's the established world to give humans the chance. It has to be this way in any game with aliens. There is no reason and 0 chance for
super-technologically advanced civilisation to lose with humanity in "realistic" scenario. That's why authors have to pull unrealistic stuff for the story to not end in quick and sweep "game over". War of the Worlds for example. What deals with super advanced Martians in their Tripods with pre WWII tech humanity? Bacteria and other microorganisms. Super advanced aliens don't have air filters.
So in the world of X-COM it is possible to reverse-engineer magic quickly, but other things are still take time. Especially something that deals with people and not futuristic "magical" technology. X-COM needs to research that for them to win, it is necessary. X-COM doesn't need to overthrow governments, its not necessary. So if something is unrealistic, but necessary - Have to be in the game. But if something is unrealistic and also unnecessary - doesn't have to be in the game.
"Why, exactely, should similar feats in regards to rogue states be unrealistic? X-Com can convince "the UN" to grant them total operational authority to act on an outside threat, but can't convince them to act similarily on a threat on the inside because it would take too long?"
Maybe they can, but it requires too much time, so they don't. Especially when they gain knowledge about Cydonia.
About money. Who says that X-COM doesn't get some things cheaper? Engineers and Scientists (and agents) might work for the pay in the early game, but as X-COM gets knowledge that the threat is serious (trough the same scientists) they might decide to work for the "cause" and their pay goes for the research instead and their bare minimum necessities. What is the use of cash during alien invasion? Cheaper fighter jets, cheaper missles, cheaper cannons, cheaper other stuff. The Red Tape doesn't work always against X-COM, a mere flashlight might cost 200$ because of it, but used Russian fighter jet might cost way less. Again, up to mod creator, he can make it work for your argument, or for mine.
Indeed, a couple of milions is nothing in my opinion when talking about officials who have that much power. You expect Council Member to go against his people's safety for couple hundreds thousands of dollars? Especially during such crisis?
"Remind me, again, why X-Com shouldn't be able to bribe a government official with "a couple of millions". Or, for that matter, with any of the artifacts, technology etc. that the organization has recovered. Like I said earlier, money isn't even the only thing X-Com has to offer."
Some people just don't take bribes. Some people might be under alien mind-control. Some people might take bigger bribes from other source. X-COM has alien artifacts, yes. You know who has MORE alien artifacts? Aliens. Who can throw more exotic tech at people, X-COM, or Aliens? Especially when Aliens plan to take it back right after invasion, probably.
Lets not act like X-COM is the only one who could give bribes. There is a lot more and bigger organisations that have more resources and more cash and that like aliens more than they do humans, even without mind-control. Men in Black for example.
Oh, like the "countless deaths" your shady deals with MAGMA result in? Elerium bombs in residential areas, assassinations, unstoppable raids, chemical contaminations - seems to me like X-Com is ethical flexible enough to turn a blind eye if the organization profits from it, seeing how it does not intervene.
Apparently making people even more addicted to alien drugs also isn't a problem, as long as it undermines cult (and alien) activity. Truly X-Com at it's finest, putting ethics and morality first. But preventing literal aliens from taking over a country and experiment/enslave/mind control it's population? Nope, might result in casualties.
Where it is written that MAGMA uses tech from X-COM for all that stuff you mention? I can't quite recall that from my memory.
Also I don't remember that X-COM psyclone makes people even more addicted, quite the opposite, X-COM psyclone is safer and also cuts cult and alien activity which is a win-win scenario for X-COM, Council and Humanity.
I don't know what you mean by that: "But preventing literal aliens from taking over a country and experiment/enslave/mind control it's population? Nope, might result in casualties."
Every single action you take against aliens does that. It prevents literal aliens to sign a pact with a nation. You (and I) don't argue about preventing aliens from taking over a country and experiment/enslave/mind control it's population. You (and I) argue about aliens already taking over the country (signing the pact) and then trying to reverse that. Prevention and Reversion are two different things. If X-COM is unable to stop infiltrations and/or generally sucks at dealing with threats on certain nation's soil, that nation signs a pact with aliens.
Do everything you can to prevent that, but if they signed, they signed. If they signed, work towards Cydonia, instead of political drama.
It's not a pancake either, apparently, but that does not invalidate my statement since the argument was not about it being a pancake, nor was it about "fight or die". It was about X-Com being able to sway countries into taking action (or authorizing X-Com to take action etc.), based upon prior feats - something you called into question.
What I meant by "its not fight, or die scenario" is that aliens winning doesn't necessarly means death for humanity.
In the conspiracy theory world of X-COM, Council of Nations members rule their nations, not their governments (in my opinion, can't remember, or find a lore that states otherwise). They created X-COM and Men in Black (among others, probably) to deal with the situation. X-COM is to fight aliens, Men in Black is to cooperate with them.
Council knows everything that X-COM does. Individual members of that Council know that X-COM is fighting a losing war.
So they have a choice. It would be better for them if X-COM wins, but for all they know, the chances are slim and before knowing about Cydonia, there is literally no sign of any chance of winning with Ethernals.
Those choices are:
a) Help X-COM as long as it possible, as long as they deal good enough with threats on their nation's soil, stay with them.
b) If they don't do that "good enough", sign pact with aliens who promise better treatment for cooperation.
From non-player perspective, the second option is reasonable in situation that Council is if X-COM does a poor job. It doesn't matter that X-COM saved the world 1000 times before, if they can't do it 1001, it means nothing.
Did I state anywhere that X-Com should do that?
Oh, I did not? Would you mind taking that strawmen back home again? BTW, when did council members became their respective country's head of state, being able to sign pacts with aliens?
You did stated "assasinations". And its not directly stated who signs the pact. I assume its the individual Council Members. Because how Council of Nation members were choosed? Its just some random people in the office in the time, assigned to random nations?
Of course not, those are each individual nation representatives, if not de facto rulers. It is conspiracy theory mod, after all. Each nation having one secretive ruler with democracy and such as a facade.
In both scenarios, being a representative, or secret ruler, they are the ones to sign a pact, because they are the people that matter. So who else to assasinate, bribe, or blackmail if not Council members?
Who signs those pacts? Also up to mod creator, I assume its Council members. Any proof that that they don't?
That does not even make any sense. Containing the cults and X-Coms further efforts are the only reason X-the oranization is granted more authority. "Saving"/"Protecting" humanity accounts for everything, apparently. If other countries can be persuaded that a rogue state under the influence of an outside force poses a credible, immediate threat, why shouldn't they act?
And they don't just resign, they let an invading alien force operate unhindered on their own soil. Government officials who support something like that would - in reality - be comitting treason according to practical every constitution I can think of, as it subverts sovereignity of the state. Which is also why something like this poses a threat to humanity at large and would not be supported by a general population that is not drugged out of their mind, mind controlled or otherwise "preoccupied".
Which is the reason X-Com can and should act on this - either directly or indirectly.
More authority =/= all authority.
And by those countries to "act" you mean all out war against nation that peacefully signed a pact? Or maybe perpetual assasinations, bribes and blackmails of every single official of that nation? While under direct protection of aliens? While under incoming invasion that aliens aren't quite strong enough? Time to fight with ourselfs and make humanity weaker.
"And they don't just resign, they let an invading alien force operate unhindered on their own soil. Government officials who support something like that would - in reality - be comitting treason according to practical every constitution I can think of, as it subverts sovereignity of the state. Which is also why something like this poses a threat to humanity at large and would not be supported by a general population that is not drugged out of their mind, mind controlled or otherwise "preoccupied"."
Where you get that idea? Its like with France surrendering to Germans during WWII. Goverment officials who supported something like that commited treason?
Imagine being a human in a X-COM FILES world. On the news you hear about city purges all over the world, your country included, your city included. You live in constant fear, chryssalids dropped here, reapers dropped there. Then your country decides to sign a pact with aliens and it all stops where you live. Surerly, a glimpse of safety is something that general population would never support. Surerly, general population never gave any of its rights in order for "feel" a bit safer. Impossible to think of that common bread-eater would have choosen short-sighted safety over humanity first and fight to the death. WWII for example, every single Polish citizen under German and Soviet Union occupation fought to the death, mothers with children, elderly, they all fought 24h/7 days a week, nobody just accepted what happened and lived the life of "general peace".
No country ever surrendered to any other country, right? Because it violates sovereignity and we all know how people put empty words over their well-being in the moment.
And X-COM does act on this. What is the purpose of taking those countries back from aliens, when you have no chance to beat them? As mentioned before, X-COM fights with that by working towards and finally going to Cydonia.
That is plain out wrong and neither supported by lore nor by game mechanics. You can not prevent countries from being inflitrated, regardless of what you do. Neither does in-game lore state that the aliens "stop" their activities or "spare" people. They simply trade technology for unhindered access to the country in question.
You can't? Then for what reason I shut down all of those aliens with infiltration missions? Why did I did all of those city purges missions? No way to prevent, or atleast delay countries being infiltrated? Then whats the point in doing anything?
Maybe there is no direct statement in lore that aliens cease their directly harmfull activities, but then whats the point of a country signing the pact? If nothing happens, if they still get demolished, then whats the point of that pact? That would be very stupid on alien's side to do such things. Why? Because if they treat nations that signed the pact better, other nations will be more willing to sign it, so it will allow them to win faster and with less casualities on their own, or humanity casualities. After all, they are here to expand their stellar empire, experiment on people and such, not to destroy the Earth.
Where is the lore that says that pacts with aliens just grants the nation with alien tech in exchange and nothing else? Thats quite stupid.
" - Oh, greetings mister Ethernal, oh yes, thank you, I will take this plasma rifle, million deaths a month is a small price to pay for such piece of technology".
" - Hey, see this other country?"
" - Yeah, what of it?"
" - They signed a pact with aliens."
" - They did? And what they got for it?"
" - Sweet, sweet alien tech and just couple of million people dead each month!"
" - Nice... Maybe we also should also sign the pact? That pesky X-COM keeps that tech for themselfs, gready bastards, they have no morals."
Average conversation of Council Members, goverment officials and generally everyone who contributes to signing a pact with aliens.