Messages

61

Translations / Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!

« on: September 02, 2014, 04:26:06 am »

I could work on far better translation but I do not want others just destroy my work without any argumentation. Instead of voting for particular strings, I suggest discussion and/or  voting for Polish counterparts of specific terms in all the translation, or for particular problems and general rules like spelling names of alien races from an upper or a lower letter (btw. rules of Polish orthography should always be obeyed, they are not a possible subject of voting!) or Polonization by force of the terms best known to all UFO players, like Commander / przywódca (instead of komandor) or Chryssalid / krysalid (instead of just chrysalid). Note that such newly introduced terms are unfriendly and confusing to many players! Please respect it!

Anyway, if the present system of democratic clicks is cancelled, I will help with pleasure. If it is not, I will not help because it would be a work without any sense.

And once again, I strongly suggest to start from completely removing of all changes that have been made with clicks, and return this way to the previous version as the base for feature work on translation (except new strings) - but the "democratic" changes are nothing but a destruction! And all further changes and new proposals should be discussed first than introduced, of course not in single strings but in the whole localization file.

62

Translations / The new system can be destructive for the translation!

« on: September 01, 2014, 03:59:44 pm »

The new system causes that each particular string can be changed with voting. This is the worst solution of all possible. It is so because a given term can occur in a number of strings at the same time. Voting can cause a change in one string while another version stays in all other strings.

To clear the thing, I will give an example from the Polish translation:

For STR_MUTON_CORPSE, "Zwłoki mutona" has won the voting. But:

STR_SECTOID_CORPSE is "Ciało Sektoida",
STR_SNAKEMAN_CORPSE is "Ciało Wężownika",
STR_ETHEREAL_CORPSE is "Ciało Etereala", etc.

Note CORPSE as "zwłoki" in the first example while CORPSE as "ciało" in the others. Note also the spelling "mutona" (lower case) and "Sektoida" etc. (upper case).

It can be even worse! COMMANDER means "komandor" in Polish but some people may translate it as "przywódca". But the normal translation of "przywódca" is "leader"! So, the present system of democracy towards each single string which is trating apart, can cause a total mess: in some strings "przywódca" may be COMMANDER while in others "przywódca" may be LEADER.

So, this democratic system of clicks may be destructive! And the final translation may lead to serious missunderstandings.

Please consider my argumentation, and add a rule that a given term MUST be translated in the same way in all strings where it is present. This cannot be done automatically, however.

For example, COMMANDER should be either "komandor" or "przywódca" everywhere, in all strings in which it occurs. But NAME should be sometimes translated as "imię" and sometimes as "nazwa" because of features of the language.

In other words, only clicks on such or another version of a given string is the worst solution. There should be some coordination between all changes.

As for now, the Polish translation has been destructed by people who wanted to force their own translations only in some strings. I really expect that someone WILL revert the translation to the prevoious state, before the introduction of the new system, or the game will be less and less comprehensible. If this mess will continue, the only solution will be to play in English.

As for now, to play OpenXCom in Polish, in a comfortable way, you must first edit the localization file for yourself, and remove all the mess caused by the new system of clicks. Previously there was not such a need.

I do not think it is one the creators of the new system expected. Perhaps it is time for go back to the previous system, or to serious changes in the click system.

63

Translations / Re: Polish translation

« on: September 01, 2014, 03:46:50 pm »

Niestety, znów się nie zgadzam. Commander to komandor, a commodore to komodor. (sprawdź w słowniku, jak można przetłumaczyć na angielski polski wyraz "komodor", wtedy wszystko stanie się jasne). Oba terminy używane są bez większych zmian w języku polskim, i to jest właśnie poprawne.

A generalnie powiem tak: jestem przyzwyczajony od lat do gry w UFO w języku angielskim, i takie spolszczanie na siłę mnie po prostu razi. Swego czasu napisałem tu zresztą obszerny post przeciwko "tłumaczeniu" UFO jako NOL (absurd, bo tego skrótowca prawie nikt nie używa!), silakoidów jako krzemoidów itd. (z argumentacją, dlaczego ten termin powinien zostać), i wtedy jakoś nie było problemu. Widzę jednak, że problem wraca jak bumerang.

Czy żeby pozostawić Commander jako komandora i Silacoids jako silakoidy mamy się bić na to, kto zrobi więcej kliknięć, czy też będziemy przedstawiać rozsądne argumenty? Bo tak rozumiana demokracja jest dla mnie pozbawiona sensu. Owszem, można głosować, ale nad zasadami, a nie nad każdym stringiem z osobna.

Napiszę na ten temat odrębny post po angielsku, może twórcy tego systemu kliknięć otrzeźwieją. Bo jak na razie ich pomysł wprowadził tylko totalny bałagan.

64

Translations / Re: Polish translation

« on: August 31, 2014, 09:27:32 pm »

1. Zwłoki kontra ciało

OK, niech będzie zwłoki, tu masz rację, w końcu jest sekcja zwłok. Ale w takim razie trzeba to poprawić wszędzie, a nie tylko przy mutonach.

2. Pisownia od małej litery.

Tu także masz całkowitą rację. Gdy ponad półtora roku temu zaproponowałem mnóstwo poprawek w ówczesnym tłumaczeniu, także o tym pisałem, ale najwyraźniej propozycja wtedy nie przeszła (a ja stwierdziłem, że nie ma sensu się kłócić, tym bardziej że jako zawodowy nauczyciel mam niestety tendencje moralizatorskie, ot zboczenie zawodowe). Ale znów widzę tu problem: jeśli zmieniamy przy mutonach, to OD RAZU we wszystkich innych stringach. Inaczej (w mojej skromnej opinii) to nie ma najmniejszego sensu.

3. Przywódca to nie komandor, ale leader, więc nie mogę się zgodzić, że to jest słuszne. Przecież lead = prowadzić, przywodzić, a leader = przywódca. Innymi słowy, takie tłumaczenie jest bardzo niefortunne i niezgodne z duchem gry. O ile popieram pkt. 1 i 2, to w tym wypadku się zdecydowanie nie zgadzam. Commander to komandor... innego tłumaczenia na polski nie ma, i proponuję to zmienić z powrotem.

Tylko znów: obojętnie jaka wersja zwycięży, to nie powinno być tak, że w jednym stringu ktoś coś poprawił, a w całej reszcie jest inaczej. Sorry, ale to jest całkowicie bez sensu... bo rodzi tylko bałagan w miejsce porządku.

Rzeczywiście, sprawdziłem w dzisiejszym buildzie, w nazwach wprowadzono Przywódcę (dlaczego od dużej litery?). Ale wciąż w STR_THE_MARTIAN_SOLUTION_UFOPEDIA mowa o komandorach...

Przy okazji:  jeśli już mówimy o poprawności, to "z dużej litery" uważane jest za formę niepoprawną :-). Poprawnie piszemy coś dużą literą lub od dużej litery.


Nie za bardzo wiem, jak funkcjonuje ten system tłumaczenia, ale jeśli pozwala zmienić jeden string nie ruszając innych z tym samym terminem, to jest to bardzo głupi pomysł, co właśnie widać. Po raz kolejny proponuję: albo zmieniamy jakiś termin wszędzie, albo nigdzie. Żeby nie było bałaganu...

65

Translations / Re: Polish translation

« on: August 31, 2014, 12:53:34 pm »

Dlaczego:

STR_MUTON_CORPSE: "Zwłoki mutona"

choć

  STR_SECTOID_CORPSE: "Ciało Sektoida"
  STR_SNAKEMAN_CORPSE: "Ciało Wężownika"
  STR_ETHEREAL_CORPSE: "Ciało Etereala"

itd.?

Dlaczego zwłoki i dlaczego od małej litery, skoro poza tym wszędzie od dużej?

Sprawdzałem wersję ze stycznia 2013, wtedy było "Ciało Mutona". Jaki był cel dokonania takiej poprawki?

Proponuję, by to cofnąć do poprzedniego stanu, ewentualnie wszędzie popoprawiać "Ciało" na "Zwłoki" - no i w końcu ustalić, czy nazwy ras mają być od małej czy od dużej litery...


Po drugie, COMMANDER (obcych) jest tłumaczony jako Komandor, np.   STR_LIVE_COMMANDER: "Komandor". Dlaczego zatem   STR_FLOATER_COMMANDER: "Lewiton Przywódca" i podobnie z innymi rasami? Jeśli komuś aż tak bardzo przeszkadzał ten komandor, to dlaczego nie zrobił zmian w całym pliku?


Na koniec prośba do wszystkich tłumaczy: jak już coś zamieniacie, to róbcie to KONSEKWENTNIE, a najlepiej wcześniej przedyskutujcie TUTAJ, co zamierzacie i po co to zamierzacie. Bo tak to wychodzi po prostu bałagan, jak widać zresztą.


English summary: Some inconsitencies have been introduced to the Polish translation recently, please REVERT them.

Namely:

STR_MUTON_CORPSE:
is: "Zwłoki mutona"
should be: "Ciało Mutona"

(cf. other names of corpses!)

STR_FLOATER_COMMANDER:
is: "Lewiton Przywódca"
should be: "Lewiton Komandor"

STR_SECTOID_COMMANDER:
is "Sektoid Przywódca"
should be: "Sektoid Komandor"

STR_SNAKEMAN_COMMANDER:
is: "Wężownik Przywódca"
should be: "Wężownik Komandor"

Note that COMMANDER is Przywódca everywhere, even in STR_ETHEREAL_COMMANDER: "Etereal Komandor"


A request to other translators: please do your changes in all places, or do not do them at all. And inform others about your plans here.

66

Programming / [Missing feature?] Alien Habitat is not recognized by OpenXCom

« on: August 30, 2014, 02:43:11 pm »

Due to bugs in original game files, Alien Habitat is absent in the game. The tiles that represent that item (chairs and flashing balls) are marked as Destructed instead (MCD files, special properties, offset 59 in the structure, the value 12 instead of 11).

If to repair this bug by patching MCD files, Alien Habitat is collected after a tactical game in the original game. There is not a special topic to research, so Alien Habitat is absent in the ingame Ufopedia. However, it appears in base stores, and it can be sold.

OpenXCom, unlike the original game, cannot see Alien Habitat even if marked as such in MCD files, so it is not collected after a tactical game. Placing a patch in the ruleset does not help, either.

Cf. https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2872.0 for a patch ready to test.

Please add a service of Alien Habitat to the game.

67

Work In Progress / Alien Habitat and Alien Reproduction

« on: August 30, 2014, 02:49:45 am »

I have created a little mod for the research tree, together with some MCD patches / modifications (see inside the archive, TinyResearchMod.txt, for the argumentation that they are patches rather than mods). Some tiles have been marked as Alien Habitat (specialType: 11) both in the ruleset and in .mcd files (made of yet patched versions, from the Universal Patch).

When I am playing the original game with the patched .mcd files, the game sees those alien chairs as Alien Habitat really, in mission summary. Even if there is no such a topic in the research list, I receive this item in my base, and I can sell it.

However, when I play OpenXCom, no Alien Habitat appears in mission summary or in the base after the mission. I use both patched .mcd and the .rul files (in proper folders, with the mod switched on, etc.).

My question is: can the present version of OpenXCom serve Alien Habitat in the same way like the original game can?

Even if such an item is absent in normal game (in my humble opinion: due to a bug in data files), Alien Habitat appears in the original game when proper changes have been made in mcd's. It would be nice if OpenXCom can imitate this behaviour (for the use of modders).

Or perhaps there is something wrong with my ruleset? Please take a look...

By the way, look at the map UFO_150.MAP (inside the archive); I have found a rather obvious error in the original file, and removed it. This error has been missed in the Universal Patch.

BTW, you can test other features of my mod as well, there is a detailed list of changes inside.

68

Translations / Re: Polish translation

« on: January 27, 2013, 11:07:26 pm »

@SupSuper, your request is fully right, we were just talking about problems in our complex language
Now the new translation is ready, as well as a new gfx (geo). As I can see no voices against it, and there are only positive reactions, I think you can place it in the distribution package.

Now I have added STR_ZOMBIE and several other strings at the same end of the file. Recently there has been discussion on correction for tanks in Ufopedia - but this needs new strings (see https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,547.msg8817.html#msg8817)

69

Translations / Re: New text strings

« on: January 27, 2013, 09:34:56 pm »

In UFOpedia pages in the game, weapons on tanks are named with the same strings as the tanks themselves. It is not like in the original game, see the attachment. Hence my request to make a separate strings on tank weapons.
Namely, the weapon mounted on Tank/Cannon is called Armour piercing in the original game while Tank/Cannon in OXC.
The weapon on Tank/Rocket Launcher is called Rocket Launcher in the original game while Tank/Rocket Launcher in OXC.
Etc.

70

Translations / Re: Polish translation

« on: January 27, 2013, 08:48:29 pm »

Tymczasem w pakiecie dystrybucyjnym pojawiła się nowa wersja starego tłumaczenia... nie rozumiem, dlaczego. Czy nie należało tego kroku najpierw przedyskutować?

71

Translations / Re: Translator feedback required

« on: January 20, 2013, 12:36:24 pm »

Karvanit, is this topic closed with no results?

Summing up, there is not only problem with zero. AFAIK, in order to use really correct language forms, you should use more than those three forms you have mentioned at the start. And what is used in different games, is also not correct. You have assumed incorrectly that the only possible differences are between a singular and a plural form. This is not true in languages with dual (Slovene has different forms used with 2) and with cases (most Slavic, for example) as various case forms may be used with such or another numeral. As a Polish native speaker who know also Russian enough well, I can share my observations with you.

Let's take units and soldiers. In order to make fully correct forms, we should have at least the following variants:

• 0 sztuk, żołnierzy
• 1 sztuka, żołnierz
• 2, 3, 4; 22, 23, 24; 32 ... 94 sztuki, żołnierzy
• 5-20, 25-30, 35-40, ... 95-100 sztuk, żołnierzy
• 21, 31, ... 91 sztuk, żołnierzy

so at minimum 5 different variants. The list of 5 different forms is going to be universal for now (and not only Polish-oriented) but it is quite possible that would not be enough when we added Slovene which uses separate dual forms.

I have separated 21, 31, 41 ... from 5, 6, 7 etc., taking Russian under consideration: in that language numerals 21, 31, ... 91 behave just like 1 (so with singular, not like in Polish). Be aware of 11, 12, 13 and 14 - they behave differently than 21, 22, 23 and 24 (in both Polish and Russian).

However... as you can see, there are words used in 3 different forms (sztuka : sztuki : sztuk) and words with only two forms (żołnierz : żołnierzy). As now, STR_DAY_1, STR_DAY_2, STR_DAY_3 are enough for fully correct Polish - as "day" has only 2 forms here. But it is still not enough for Russian! - as I can see in the language file, now the "general plural" form is used there - but this form is, frankly speaking, incorrect to use with any numeral ({N} Дни instead of 0 дней, 2-4 дня, 5-20 дней, 21 день, 22-24 дня, 25-30 дней and so on, with only 1 день fully correct).

Which is more, if you want to translate "Units: {N}", you do not need numerous forms, as one general form may be used with all quantities. However, in order to translate "{N} units" correctly, you will have to use those 5 listed above, universal different strings.

Reassuming: I do not think there is a need for creating many different variants for every string with a quantity. Perhaps you should rely on translators' requests, and when there is such a need, make variants of a given string only, as many as needed.

72

Translations / Re: Polish translation

« on: January 20, 2013, 03:49:26 am »

Miałem w końcu chwilę, by pobawić się z grafiką. Rezultat widać w załączonym pliku (wewnątrz są oba pliki polonizujące, nie potrzeba ściągać niczego więcej). Bawiłem się po pikselach... ale ważne, że działa z grą, sprawdziłem. Ufopedia znów stała się ufopedią, poza tym poprawiłem jednostki czasu.

I teraz takie pytanie... czy ktoś ma jakieś zasadnicze uwagi, czy też można oba pliki przekazać twórcom gry celem dołączenia do pakietu dystrybucyjnego?

Drobne poprawki będzie pewnie można nanosić cały czas, w końcu w nowych wersjach gry ciągle pojawiają się jakieś zmiany... Chodzi raczej o odpowiedź, czy idziemy w dobrym kierunku, i o to, czy jest zgoda, by nie wracać do tego, co było wcześniej.

73

Suggestions / Re: New Player Messages and Right Click Tooltips

« on: January 20, 2013, 03:42:33 am »

In each language? Not everyone knows English sufficiently well...

74

Suggestions / Re: New Player Messages and Right Click Tooltips

« on: January 19, 2013, 10:37:02 pm »

I think this idea can really be useful. Just not very long time ago, a 15-year old girl saw me playing UFO, and she felt the need to give it a try too. I showed her how to start a game, she heard and heard... and looked frightened. Young people are too lazy for such games. But I am pretty sure she could do use of this sort of help willingly if it was possible.

How to implement the help? A kind of a mentat like in Dune 2 maybe?

If the help messages are ready, and if they are implemented in the game, I will translate them into Polish with pleasure (if time allows).

75

Suggestions / Re: Xcom & TFTD

« on: January 19, 2013, 10:11:00 pm »

I've not played UFO 2000 for a while, I assume Lua is for scripting events within the map? There has been talk of adding a scripting language to OXC in the past.

To tell the truth, I have played UFO2000 once or twice but it is not the case. Lua files describe how to make a battlefield of tiles (stored in terrain folder of the game), and of map files (maps folder of the game and additional folders with used-made files, shipped within the archive of a given terrain). Besides, there is a function called MapGenerator which tells the game how to link map files in order to make a correct battlefield.

There are many maps of this kind ready for using with UFO2000. If OXC could import them, it would save additional effort of map makers. In fact, at least some of the maps are so fine that people do make conversions to use them with original games. https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Custom_Maps_%28UFO2000%29 uncovers some further technical details. And the map depot is here: https://area51.xcomufo.com/depot2.htm.

Why would you continue after you beat the game? Where would it then end? I suppose if you just wanted to keep playing, but without a mission and full research, seems little point, you might as well just use Free Battle.

Free Battle is not a campaign. As for me, the charm of XCom games has always lain in strategy, not only in tactical game. This is why tactical-only games (like the Gollops' Laser Squad Nemesis) have never been so popular.

If "the 10th wish" fulfilled, the player would need to accomplish both the EU aim (Cydonia) and TFTD aim (T'leth) to finish the game. Just like WeOwnTheNight wrote, it would be one long campaign. And still not the same as playing the two games one-after-one.

The main difference would be that you could start the second part (TFTD) with trained soldiers and with advanced weapons (from UFO:EU) for land missions (now inaccessible in TFTD). Even now XComUtil (and, as I can remember, also some other game tools) can transfer existing soldiers from UFO into TFTD, so there is such a need among players. Besides, even now there is a division into universal weapons and underwater (only) weapons in TFTD; in this scenario there would also be land-only weapons as well.

In order to balance the game, you might have a little tougher underwater creatures just from the start of the second part, as your soldiers would be trained. On the other side, you would still have weak weapons on underwater missions. Or maybe some of the trained soldiers should not be part of underwater missions (because of medical contraindications?) - now you can have extra fighters but with low psi, in the proposed scenario you would have extra land fighters with low underwater skills etc. Result: longer campaigns, twice as many weapons as in the original game, but many usable in one environment only, more player decisions (who should be sent to a land mission and who to an underwater mission, what weapon should be loaded into the flying sub, etc.), just more interesting game.

Running both simultaneously has also been discussed, but that would be a lot of work - especially if you're wanting to double up bases. I would expect research tree changes would be rather trivial though

I do not say it would be simple but I think it would be a really interesting and expected option. Think positively. I wonder if it really needed making larger bases: TFTD bases are under water, while UFO bases are on land, so hangars and sub pens side-by side? On land? If there is a need to have larger bases, that would be little related to simultaneous game. Or perhaps a special base type in ports, with all 4 levels used, 2 lower for sub facilities, and 2 upper for air facilities. Just an idea.

Is the 8-base limit so hard to be removed from the game? If it is really, so OK, 8 bases totally (including some land, and some underwater, say 4 + 4). It should be enough to win the game. Adding TFTD weapons, subs, aliens to UFO:EU should not be very hard after having TFTD reimplementation finished, and it is quite possible that it would need mainly changes in the ruleset.

Let's wait until reimplementation of TFTD is finished Then we will be talking about details of a possible fusion.