OpenXcom Forum
OpenXcom => Suggestions => Topic started by: MrWigggles on February 09, 2013, 12:22:05 pm
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So, I was doing some for lolz game designing for a Stargate game using xcom as its basis, and it struck me that you can do ship battles using the Battle Scape.
Almost everything can carry over, and it'd probably be overall simpler then the actual Battle Scape because a majority of the verbs do not carry over.
Time Units for movement and verbs should translate pretty easily, but Reaction Fire would need to be changed to Reaction Evasion, which would null or reduce damage taken.
Bravery would still function with a panic crew, preventing the craft from acting.
And the x-com system for stat improvement through doing should also carry over. This may explicitly require 'Pilots' to have an in game ability to transfer stats between Interceptors and X-Com advance craft. It would also make losing interceptors more impactful then simply being a 600k fine, and some point penalty.
The scale of the Battlescape would need to change but this can be accomplished through art assets.
Vehicles would have to act similar to the multitile Units in the game, with possibly unique capability to taking 'internal' damage and possible some linkage through area specific damage and craft capability. I'm not sure how flexible the Wounds system, and its impact on Stats are though.
The map tiles themselves would need to behave different, with map tiles being shifted off to the one of the edges and being replaced with other map tiles to gain the feeling of the two craft moving over the earth.
Depending how awesome the Rulesets are, this kinda of Advance Interceptor Mode biggest headache would probably be the need for new art assets.
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so it would be a 2D "skyscape" or perhaps "spacescape"... that would actually be very interesting...
you could use the cloud mechanics with changed graphics for clouds or space dust... asteroids to take cover behind in "spacescape" battles... intriguing. please go ahead and pursue this, I would love to see a concept of it. do you want some mock-up graphics for a simple UFO and interceptor? perhaps starting as single-tile units?
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Uh... sure. Yea.
Little interceptors and little scout UFO for testing would be neat. I dont see that being the actual scale... Myself personally was seeing the Interceptor being a 2x3 tile Unit, but that might force the Battle Cruiser to exist only partially on the map, and cant really move.
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yes, scale might be a problem... especially if you want to go above 2x2 tiles with non-circular units, turning might become a problem: imagine trying to turn a 2x4 tile unit that is wedged between two others... I think the game engine doesn't account for these things at all. :(
all this can be avoided by limiting human craft to 1 tile, and making all UFOs circular. rather small, I know, but probably easier :)
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Its something that can be played with, and experiment with.
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ok, you asked for it... here's an interceptor model to replace the unarmored xcom soldier.
it's based off a free mig-29 model I found on the web, which appears to be the closest available plane. it's a fully functional xcom_0.pck file, including "walking" animations (thrusters) and an explosion as death animation. :D
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Neat thank you.
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Wow, I like this idea. I'd love to see what you make out of this
One point though - are you going to support multi-craft interceptions?
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multi-craft interceptions?
+1
I sincerely hope so :)
I also see a lot of potential in this - which is why I immediately jumped into making that interceptor sprite :)
I'll see if I can make a generic UFO sprite as soon as I can find the time. Thinking about further sprites, I can think of another reason for NOT using multi-tile-sprites: they are a lot harder to create :P maybe for now you can use the cyber-disc as the UFO?
maybe somebody is capable of programming a tool to help creators of multi-sprite units?
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I dont know if thats really possible, My initial attempt is just to get an alt. battle scape for a one on one fight.
The Geoscape doesnt seem to have the concept of multi interceptors attacking a single UFO, or vice versa or multi UFO and multi Interceptor.
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Not in vanilla xcom, you are right. :D
Just make sure that you don't design the "skyscape" battles in a way that prevents us from adding multi-craft battles later ;)
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The Geoscape doesnt seem to have the concept of multi interceptors attacking a single UFO,
(https://www.ufopaedia.org/images/8/82/Interception.PNG)
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I was about to say exactly that, XCOM always had the option of attacking an UFO with multiple crafts, the problem is that is a a little obscure feature. in order to achieve that feature you needed to click on the minimize icon on the left of the air combat screen, thsi will allow for the persecution to proceed allowing other xcom craft to catch up and then do a gang bang on the UFO :)
This was speciall useful against battleships.
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I've been searching for suitable 3D models for the skyranger, firestorm, lightning and avenger, but couldn't find anything on the web... has anybody seen something like that? I cannot believe that they don't exist. Not in a game with a fanbase like this. I think I'm just unable to find them. :( :)
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yes they do exist for sure, i think i can find them, i have seen them somewhere. I will update this post if i find them.
UPDATE:
Ok i found some stuff, but i think we might need to contact the people (if those accounts still available) if someone wants to give it a try
ICQ : 70826304
MSN : psyguy2002@hotmail.com
E-MAIL : psyguy@videotron.ca
https://www.xcomhlmod.8m.com/
and the lasthope mod
https://www.moddb.com/mods/x-com-last-hope/downloads
we can ask if the artwork can be used.
This is the Source Code for X-Com Lasthope for Half-Life 1. This includes the whole source code and a few map sources. Unfortunately i do not have access to all the map sources in the beta of lasthope released earlier so they are not included, models can be found in the beta and decompiled, the same applies for other assets such as sounds
Also i remember UFO: cydonias fall had 3D models of just about everything. but the truth is that i do not remember who worked on that project. and since is long disappeared :(
UPDATE 2:
Ok after a little research i have found the founder of Cydonia's fall his name is Freelanzer
his website is https://freelanzer.com/
and here is a freebee i have found for all of you to have a nerdgasm!!!!
Cydonia's fall seems to still be alive but very well hidden :) my life and work revolves around searching ;)
https://ufo.freelanzer.com/
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and just to be a party popper :P
please don't send donations to me ok!!!
https://ufosecret.freelanzer.com/
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Unity, interesting and what coincidence... perhaps I need to switch project , cause I don't see a battlescape yet... ;D
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Unity, interesting and what coincidence... perhaps I need to switch project , cause I don't see a battlescape yet... ;D
lol
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lol
Hey don't' blame me if suddenly your whole team disappears :P i was just being "helpful" :)
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wow... wow, just wow, i just heard the soundtrack of the Cydonia's Fall website (I always search with volume off)
I like the sound track, it is nice, dark, eerie, scary, it lures you... it has a lot of the XCOM feel, it gave me the chills!!! AWESOME :)
EDIT
Nevermind, after looking at that page source i found a link to the music is from a youtube video :( still it is an awesome soundtrack in case anyone wants to see the video
https://www.youtube.com/embed/sFB3SS9-qa0?fs=1&autoplay=1&loop=1
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Hey don't' blame me if suddenly your whole team disappears :P i was just being "helpful" :)
My whole team? I'm an occasional contributor, it's more like I'm part of their team.
Back on topic, is this actually under development? or is it just an idea atm?
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This is a fantastic idea, just think you could bring into the game , Energy shields, Droid Defences ( float around craft), fighter crafts launching form a Mothership, Base Defences that are actually used in game ( and controllable) alien Defences when attacking there bunkers, suicide runs for damaged craft, atmospheric conditions, Space battle , water battle, Mars, attack crafts that have landed EtC
I am just bummed out that i am stuck studying now as its less time for Mods... :-[
I think this would be the best time to start introducing HD graphics as then everything can stay on a 1x1 location but you could be more zoomed in to see more detail of the craft.
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this won't be any xcom1 clone. it would be better called xcom:interceptor.
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Although i own interceptor , i have never played it but i still think its real time in interceptor not turnbased? Also you could then go so far as customisable ships like apoc had, with different modules that can be mixed and matched to suit your enemy , all these options ( although a LONG LONG TIME idea) would add more STRATEGY to the Geoscape environment. Just my 2 cents :P
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this won't be any xcom1 clone. it would be better called xcom:interceptor.
Who wants just a clone? You can always play the original for that ;D Besides, if it's activated by an option, then it's up to the player
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wow... wow, just wow, i just heard the soundtrack of the Cydonia's Fall website (I always search with volume off)
I like the sound track, it is nice, dark, eerie, scary, it lures you... it has a lot of the XCOM feel, it gave me the chills!!! AWESOME :)
EDIT
Nevermind, after looking at that page source i found a link to the music is from a youtube video :( still it is an awesome soundtrack in case anyone wants to see the video
https://www.youtube.com/embed/sFB3SS9-qa0?fs=1&autoplay=1&loop=1
You can find the actual UFO:CF soundtrack here (https://lorcan.freelanzer.com/), it's a pretty good remix of the original.
Who wants just a clone? You can always play the original for that ;D Besides, if it's activated by an option, then it's up to the player
You realize it's that line of thinking that got us dozens of meh remakes that the fanbase still prefers playing the original over. :P
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You realize it's that line of thinking that got us dozens of meh remakes that the fanbase still prefers playing the original over. :P
but this remake you can turn on or off the bits you dont like, that's the differences 8)
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OK so even though i am a Noob at blender i thought i would have a go since the kids are asleep ( day time nap) here is a screen shot of a Medium scout since i could not find a model done anywhere.
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nice... I probably don't have to tell you that that's way too much detail for the creation of sprites :)
the wall details look like something that's probably better done by bump mapping, btw. But I guess you know that too, and just don't know much more about how to do that than I do (which is next to nothing :D ).
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Its only halfway done , as for the detail , yes there is to much (obviously) but i also want ot make some ART work , farm scenes , mountain range etc so a more detailed model is needed for that. I know Tentaculas showed me once taking photos from blender and how to lower the quality to match sprite levels ( so this would be similar setup to how you got your fighter picture) so i am hopping this wont be a issue , 2 birds one stone ;)
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"too much" detail should never be an issue :) I suspected you would be wanting to use it for other purposes as well. hey, maybe someone wants to do cool cutscenes or at least mission briefing screens showing the UFO in the appropriate terrain?
I could also imagine a version of the game where you can use captured UFOs as X-Com craft, so it would be nice to have some higher-quality top-down views for use in the basescape hangar screen... :D
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Obviously animation is possible with Blender , but i have not even glanced over How to do that yet, so much to do , so little time ::)
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Is it ment to be in game? if yes, it most probably doesn't have a chance to have "destructable" walls and tiles at all.
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The only possible use "Ingame" at this point would be after we take images of it from the required angle to create a sprite sheet. Another option in game could be for new Splash screens for loading or backgrounds once Hi-res is supported , this would be the ART options i mentioned earlier... Like all my stuff , the models will be FREE on my site as i build it, the only other Xcom models i have found online are the underwater tank from TTFD and that was on a Pay site , i am new to 3D modelling and Openxcom will be use to build my skills.
Really don't expect to much from me here , i am new to modelling and i don't have much time to preactise so i am sure others could do much better , this is working towards my Goals , OXC can Benefit from anything i make whilst learning. I know what a Bump mapping is but have no idea how to do it yet, i am only just learning how to unwrap models to apply textures currently.
Just out of curiosity, if you ever wanted to move to 3d models in a Xcom style game but still have them destructible , would you not cut up objects like walls/Hulls into sections and use them the same we way we do now ( to build a wall you have 2+ sections of same models in wach grid , if one gets damaged , remove that object and replace with damaged version of itself)? Just to be clear, this is not the intent of my modelling....
getting closer , colours are wrong , still looking for the right textures...
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just to get the scale of the craft and UFOs right, does anybody have a full list of the dimensions of those?
or maybe screenshots of the mini-map layouts for comparison? EDIT: made some mini-map screenshots and attached them.
while the interceptor and firestorm don't have battlescape layouts, we can compare their sizes from the basescape hangar pictures. EDIT: attached
EDIT: for reference:
- the Skyranger is 13 tiles long. the ramp is simply lifted up to close the rear end, it becomes 1 tile shorter by that, so "in the air" the skyranger is 12 tiles long.
- the Lightning has a diameter of 7 tiles
- the Avenger is 14 tiles long with the ramp extended, 11 for just the hull (which would be the relevant length for aerial battles)
- the Interceptor, from looking at the basescape (https://www.ufopaedia.org/images/5/57/BASEBITSPCK.png), should be about 8-9 tiles long
- the Firestorm, from looking at the basescape (https://www.ufopaedia.org/images/5/57/BASEBITSPCK.png), should be about 6 tiles in diameter
- Small Scout - 3 tiles diameter
- Medium Scout - 7 tiles diameter
- Large Scout - 15 tiles end to end
- Harvester - 15 tiles diameter, height 3
- Abductor - 15 tiles end to end, height 2
- Terror Ship - 15 tiles diameter center section, height 2; total width 27 tiles
- Supply Ship - 25 tiles length, 15 tiles width, height 3
- Battleship - 25 tiles diameter, height 3
now what's the length of a tile again?
EDIT: apparently, there's a lot of discussion (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Danial) about the length of a tile... from what I read and see, I think I will assume that a tile was designed to be 1 yard long by those crazy brits that made the game ;) and will therefore simply substitute that with 1 meter, because I hate weird fractional conversions (1 yard = 0,9144 meters).
looking over those sizes, I would say that the human craft are undersized. A modern fighter jet is around 17-19 meters long, while the x-com interceptor craft is at 8-9 meters using the above calculations.
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I am in the process of fixing the Ratio of that current UFO, i am working on 1 blender unit = 1 tile (roughly , i am just counting the Grid behind the model), one we have a few models it should be easy to import them all into 1 blender file and scale them all down to whatever size you want...
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I've added some info to that post of mine above... looking at it again, I think the human craft are undersized. A modern fighter plane is 17-19 meters in length, while the x-com interceptor craft is only 8-9 meters, about half that size.
My guess is that the original game design was once again limited by the engine: the craft would have to be twice the current size, making them too big for the battlescape. so they simply opted to make them fit the battlescape, screw the actual dimensions. :P
as for the "skyscape" dogfight replacement, I guess it doesn't really matter. the relative sizes are pretty clear from the material we have, and I would go for the following tile sizes for the sprites:
1x1 tile: all human craft, small scout, medium scout
2x2 tiles: large scout, abductor, harvester
3x3 tiles: supply ship, terror ship, battleship
actually, the supply ship and terror ship would perfectly fit a 3x2 tile size, but I wouldn't want to be the one who has to figure out the mechanics for turning non-square units on the battlescape, especially facing diagonally :D
using 3x3 tile units is something new for x-com. we will have to come up with something clever for creating and organizing those sprites...
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Human Cruiser will need to be 2x2 , i am looking forward to modelling this :P You cant say No ever, its on the BOX art, they just forgot to put it in game ;)
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i'd suggest that a battleship can accurately be described in a 2x2 area, and everything else can be scaled accordingly.
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@luke: "human cruiser" - I think that box art is actually supposed to be the avenger. :o
@warboy: if we put the battleship at 2x2, the interceptor is going to be like five pixels long, and the small scout is going to be a single pixel ??? . no way. if 3x3 sprites are technically impossible, we will just have to live with the sprites being not to scale :(
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nothing is impossible, it's just that they won't work properly without adjustment to the code.
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@luke: "human cruiser" - I think that box art is actually supposed to be the avenger. :o
Hey , i have seen the avenger , that's not it, i want a Cruiser 8) If it makes you feel any better , i will build the aliens a HIVE ship also :P
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I don't see any problems with the sprites not accurately representing the scale.
I assume LOF data will need to be created too.
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I guess we'll make the 1x1 sprites for a start, then try a 2x2 sprite, and then try to figure out how to make a 3x3 sprite. it will be using a whole lot of tile sprites, but the drawing order should be pretty straightforward, I guess.
luke, maybe we should create a "damaged" version of each craft involved, don't you think? when a craft or UFO has reached 50% damage, the "damaged" sprite is used instead? or maybe we could use the shader instead to tint the craft red. that would certainly be a lot easier ;)
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or maybe we could use the shader instead to tint the craft red. that would certainly be a lot easier ;)
Are the shaders available outside of the OpenGL implementation?
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personally i'd go with 1 or 2 extra sprite sets to represent damage levels, maybe add some animated smoke trails or something, you know, make them less static. hell, have them bob up and down a bit like celatids, and have the relative direction of travel represented by showing jetstreams coming off the craft, and don't allow them to turn, so it looks like they are always moving, making small adjustments for turbulence, flashing their lights and so on.
i'll be happy to lend you guys a hand with the coding, and i will DEFINITELY be including this in my mod branch revival, when we nail the rest of these annoying bugs.
also, if you could modify the base defense screen to be something like the attached image, you win at life.
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I like the base defense idea too, I might see if I can code this if I can get some time
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Sounds good to me, i guess that means i need to start pumping out some models :o
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Are the shaders available outside of the OpenGL implementation?
I meant the same thing we use for 1) the path preview and 2) the colorized x-com soldiers
@warboy: hell yeah! base defense with actual purpose and interaction! although I was thinking that we could also use the same "skyscape" for base defense: a battlescape with perhaps 8-10 height levels, your own base at the center, UFO(s) entering from the side(s), base defense turrets trying to shoot them down while they are approaching... :)
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We should see how both ideas playout.
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absolutely :)
I have some ideas in mind that might actually make some of the... let's say... "less preferred"... (*cough* stupid *cough* useless *cough* crap *cough*) weapons and craft a bit more useful in this setting.
for example: it would make sense that the human craft, especially the interceptor, only feature forward-firing weapons. the cannon will definitely fire only forward, missiles might turn some degrees to follow UFOs. the firestorm graphics suggest that both weapon ports fire forward, too. the lightning, on the other hand, has a turret - it would therefore be able to fire in any direction :) (the firestorm makes up for that by being incredibly fast and agile, I guess)
the laser cannon could be re-defined as also being a defensive weapon - being able to target, hit and thereby dissipate incoming plasma globs. which reminds me that the idea of a plasma weapon being a "beam" weapon is complete bullshit, even within the game lore: battlescape plasma weapons fire plasma "bolts", not beams.
of course, this deviates a bit from the original... oh well ;)
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Updated Model is on the MODSITE , maybe we should move this discussion out of Suggestions and into MODS....?
"this deviates a bit from the original... oh well ;)" Well what about the fact that when you attack a alien vessel it can return file , but when you shoot them down they don't actually have any weapons, they just rolled there windows down and start throwing Sh*t at you.... The reality is half the game would need to be rework as the original is overly simplified when it comes to craft weapons.
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Yeah, reaction fire in the turn-based sense doesn't really make sense for these sorts of combat.
Edit: I still think a Steambirds style combat would be a nice option :D
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Updated Model is on the MODSITE , maybe we should move this discussion out of Suggestions and into MODS....?
"this deviates a bit from the original... oh well ;)" Well what about the fact that when you attack a alien vessel it can return file , but when you shoot them down they don't actually have any weapons, they just rolled there windows down and start throwing Sh*t at you.... The reality is half the game would need to be rework as the original is overly simplified when it comes to craft weapons.
true, there are no weapons in the UFO battlescape maps. that was nice about apocalypse: everything a UFO had was actually there :)
let's talk about game mechanics for the aerial battles:
-the current "dogfight" is assuming a high-speed encounter with the UFO trying to get away and firing when the pesky humans are coming too close.
for our "skyscape", I would rather have a battlefield with ground at level 0 (or water, for that matter), and several levels of "sky" above (8-10 levels), which represents the area where the UFO(s) and human craft(s) meet.
a craft may leave the battlefield by exiting through any side (perhaps by moving onto an edge-tile, and at the beginning of the next turn the game asks if you want to leave?)
to make the battle a bit more interesting, maybe there should be terrain like hills and canyons as well as clouds? otherwise the battles will soon get boring. clouds may sound like an obsolete thing, seeing as modern fighter craft even now feature augmented reality vision with sensor data that can easily penetrate cloud cover, but perhaps the alien alloys and advanced electronics reduce the battle to the "good old" visual battles of the first world war? that would let us get away with sight-blocking clouds and aerial maneuvers that actually have an impact on the battle - if you can position yourself inside a cloud but right at the edge, you have a clear advantage.
the conventional aircraft (interceptor, skyranger) do have VTOL capabilities, right? because otherwise we need to deal with craft that can not actually stay still but instead have to move each turn.
UFOs should have no problem doing erratic turns, standstills, vertical ascension and descension, whatever. gravity-wave propulsion does have its perks. :)
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Yeah, reaction fire in the turn-based sense doesn't really make sense for these sorts of combat.
Edit: I still think a Steambirds style combat would be a nice option :D
I always though that was one of the best implementation of aerial combat for a simple yet involving playtime.
It is a minigame but you can control your ships give them different turning rations also you can add the human factor and if the pilots are intro... (wait this is part of the game i dreamed off)
Any way giving ships different types of firing styles will be nice also, some can only fire forward (mainly human ships) while other can have a larger range.
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I like the steambirds controls, too - if we could implement that while still keeping the x-com look and feel, that would be great :)
Basically, that would mean plotting a movement path and then letting the units move simultaneously while firing automatically, right? Do you think that would be possible at all using openxcom's battlescape? Perhaps limiting it to 1 level, so the pathfinder doesn't have to deal with vertical movement?
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It could be possible with battlescape. You'd have to override the "pathfinding" based on the craft's direction and speed to keep flying "realistic" (in a loose sense).
Weapons fire would be the biggest problem for lining up shots in the grid, though you could add a bit of flexibility so you don't have to aim your interceptor directly at the ufo (after all, certain angles will be impossible). Shots can still be range restricted. You can hack over the blaster launcher code for "homing" missiles.
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I would assume a firing arc of 45-60° forward for the interceptor weapons, including the initial firing direction for the missiles - although they should be able to follow the UFO quite a bit.
@warboy: how hard would it be to create a preliminary version of that? a 1-level battlescape with flat ground (maybe all grass for now), where we can play around with the mechanics: next step would be to "adjust" the pathfinding so that the movement behaviour feels more like flying. I'm wondering if we need to restrict it to 1 level or if it would work just as well in a "true 3D" space. of course the path-preview would need to be adjusted to show the heading, as well as show the path in the air...
I guess we'll see if classic turn-based works for this, or if simultaneous turn-based is so much better that we have to go there ;)
P.S. for the record: if anybody wants to make sprites for this: what I did, in order to have a working model with existing game sprite mechanics, was to take the xcom_0.pck and replace the legs with my interceptor model. all other body parts I replaced with transparent sprites. if you replace the body, it will actually bob up and down while moving (part of the walking animation) or move down when you click on "kneel". also, the legs are animated for walking, so I could include a jet engine "animation" that plays while the interceptor is moving. I guess in the future we will handle this differently, but for now it seems like a valid hack ;)
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I think simultaneous turn base would be the best , later on i would like to see that rolled out into the Normal battlescape ( Yes i know , i suggested this before ::))
Halfway through modelling the skyranger , Honestly that is a really weird shape aircraft...( maybe i am just interpreting it wrong).
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Halfway through modelling the skyranger , Honestly that is a really weird shape aircraft...( maybe i am just interpreting it wrong).
you are using the battlescape craft as a model, right? I agree that it is weird. most of that is probably because of the battlescape limitations :) the skyranger doesn't look like a VTOL-capable craft at all. :) it's more of a cargo-filled tube with very short wings attached :P
at least the available images (UFOPaedia, battlescape and basescape hangar top-down sprite) look very similar. that's more than you can say for the firestorm :P
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i am trying compare the battlescape art with the UFOPEDIA ART , i don't think i have the front end right but i am goign crossed eyed looking at it, i will move on for now and come back to it...
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that skyranger nose is the weirdest part of it, don't worry: for now, anything you do will be okay, because the actual sprite is so small ;)
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Work in progress....Once you stretch it over the 12 tiles long it starts looking more like a Bus than aircraft.
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well, that's what it is, right? a bus for x-com field trips ;D
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Here is the next work in progress, I think the wing span is too wide to match the original game art but it looks more likely to fly than the original... Your thoughts?
Also when i reloaded my Ufo file today , most of the textures had been wiped out , can someone double check my download still has them or if its just something within my Blender install that is wrong...
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Neat.
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Sorry for a little bump. Did anyone ever look at this?
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My modelling is on hold whilst i do a particular HARD unit in my training course, but no as far as i know , no one has started looking at this.
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Would be so amazing imagine shooting at ufo's on a combat mode with the little sprites like soldiers and ufo's fireing avalanche and the ground would look like the sky and clouds and running out of tu be running out of fuel. lol
Also allow for new game modes Air breaching the whole map be like the out side and one giant ship with a landing craft of the roof LOL
or protect the 747 mode like terror missions and would even be able to use the multiple levels of floors the games has for and if sprite goes to floor 1 combat ends with all craft destroyed then shifting to combat ended and ship destroyed too bad you cannot combine UFO and TFTD with the Intercepter concept lol