OpenXcom Forum

Modding => Released Mods => The X-Com Files => Topic started by: MoonKid on November 15, 2020, 03:04:07 pm

Title: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: MoonKid on November 15, 2020, 03:04:07 pm
What do I have to do to enter the alien embasy?

I know I need some codes. I still have a lot of alien storage cards.
But what do I need?

I am slowly out of money because losing countries.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: anothrgamer1234 on November 16, 2020, 08:09:21 pm
What do I have to do to enter the alien embasy?

I know I need some codes. I still have a lot of alien storage cards.
But what do I need?

I am slowly out of money because losing countries.
You need an alien key, which you can get from certain Ethereal ships.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: MoonKid on July 04, 2021, 10:26:37 pm
One time I got a key and entered an embassy - great. ;)

But now I miss keys. Maybe I am to rude to UFOs. I use most powerfull weapons that blast away everything. ;)

What exactly do I need to get the keys?
Do I have to catch a living Etheral?
Which one? A simple soldier or does it need to be a commander or anything else?
What type fo ships?
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: krautbernd on July 05, 2021, 12:12:32 am
Quote
1.8:
- Rebuilt alien embassies into alien colonies (easier to get in, but can't reclaim the country).

Alien embassies have been removed from the mod.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: akk1990 on July 21, 2021, 01:24:11 pm
Alien embassies have been removed from the mod.

How do we stop countries falling to the Aliens?

It seems counterproductive to have countries fall to the aliens without being able to either stop it or reclaim them
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: krautbernd on July 21, 2021, 02:28:31 pm
How do we stop countries falling to the Aliens?
You don't. According to the mod author this intended as despite X-Coms near limitless resources, achievements and use of what could be described as outright magic, aliens are just too good at bribing government officials.


It seems counterproductive to have countries fall to the aliens without being able to either stop it or reclaim them
And I concur that it is indeed a pretty stupid decision.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 23, 2021, 08:19:14 pm
You don't. According to the mod author this intended as despite X-Coms near limitless resources, achievements and use of what could be described as outright magic, aliens are just too good at bribing government officials.

Yeah, because toppling governments by a bunch of gung-ho commandos is totally legit. Just like KGB can totally control the American government, right?

And I concur that it is indeed a pretty stupid decision.

Honestly, I thought you had a better grasp on reality. And manners.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: krautbernd on July 23, 2021, 09:31:21 pm
Yeah, because toppling governments by a bunch of gung-ho commandos is totally legit. Just like KGB can totally control the American government, right?
Strawman argument to be honest. Calling X-Com "a bunch of of gung-ho commandos" is misleading at best, given the lore you have established so far. Looking at the exploits of the CIA in the middle-east and south america I'd call your line of reasoning into question regardles. This is hardly the first time this has come up. IIRC you have tried to chalk this (among other things) to X-Com not being allowed to "choose" who they ally with - when in fact they have done so on multiple occasions with other factions.

Honestly, I thought you had a better grasp on reality. And manners.
First off, I can, in fact, read Ufopedia entries, where it is explicitly stated that the aliens "offer superior technology" in exchange for unhindered access to said country. The country is not exempt from terror mission either as far as I can tell. The aliens bribe government officials, plain and simple.

Secondly, I am not calling you stupid, I am calling out bad design decisions. And I am tired of trying to sugarcoat something that is - for all intents and purposes - bad game design. This is comparable to random events that penalize players without having any way to avoid or mitigate those events. Tying events to reasearch and making the game more interactive is good - clicking ok to lose 200 points and being blamed for something the player had no option to avoid is frustrating and bad.

Infiltrations being unavoidable is conversly more believable in vanilla, where the lore is more limited. X-Com as presented in the mod being unable to even stop infiltrations from happening brakes my suspension of disbelieve, because they manage to pull off far more improbable things. And as far as I can tell I am by no means the only one who enjoyed having the option of winning countries back via special missions.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 23, 2021, 11:34:35 pm
Sigh. But I've explained it so many times already, I really don't understand what else I can add to the subject.

The X-Com is just an agency. It has literally no feasible ways to control who is in power in any state. How would they even do that? A country's policy is not dictated by one alien spy, or even a whole cabal of them, but by a general paradigm in foreign politics. Any alien influence would go into shaping this paradigm, which takes a lot of time, and reversing this would also take a lot of time. And even if it was doable, it wouldn't be doable by some group like the X-Com, all its influence and means nonwithstanding.

I only added this because Finnik talked me into it, and we had fun making this feature. But eventually we both agreed that it didn't make much sense, and the idea was scrapped. Not to mention how many times Dioxine told me that I was being silly.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Juku121 on July 24, 2021, 11:56:57 am
*De-lurks*

I'm a bit tired of Solarius's attitude of 'I know better, silly players', and haven't had a good rant lately, so...

But I've explained it so many times already...
Then maybe it's time to re-examine this? Because if you have to (unsuccessfully) defend a change several times, maybe it wasn't a good one, or possibly got botched in the execution. To wit:
The X-Com is just an agency. It has literally no feasible ways to control who is in power in any state.
CIA is also 'just an agency', one with much stronger competition and less versatility overall. It's got the rest of the US backing it when it comes to regime change, sure, but iconic X-Com also has all the other countries still on the Council.

And the aliens have the exact same problems, only worse. What they can offer (tech, reprieve from terror, mind-control of select officials), a sufficiently advanced X-Com can as well. Except they're human, know how humans and their polities work, have established connections to said polities, have been working with them for years, and the writing is not on the wall that once everyone's been suborned, most people will become alien cattle. I once read some early X-Com fanfiction where the Commander outright threatened the Council with fusion warheads. Yes, X-Com becomes a nuclear power, one that lives in clandestine hardened bunkers to begin with and develops very fast, evasive and probably also stealthy (the basic Interceptor seems to be a version of the F-22) air-to-ground delivery systems, unlike current RL strategic nuclear bombers.

The mod doesn't have the 'shoot down/raid the UFO to stop infiltration' feature. Aliens spend a week on the mission, tops, and the UFOPedia entry says it's largely a diplomatic effort, not a long infiltration campaign culminating in rigged elections, forced regime change, mind-controlling top leadership or even jarhead takeover. The UFO is not even guaranteed to have psions on-board!

Not to mention how many times Dioxine told me that I was being silly.
I don't think Dioxine is a positive influence on the design of XCF. YMMV.

TLDR: Players want some way to mitigate their toys being randomly taken away, with no means to fight this short of reloading or save-editing. The mod could also use some effort dedicated to portraying - and not explaining, show and don't tell - exactly what X-Com can and cannot do, because ultimately, they seem to be able to do everything the original X-Com could. And more, cue running a global monster-extermination campaign/drug-running op that makes the WHO/WFP/cartels look like amateurs. :o

*Re-lurks*
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Meridian on July 24, 2021, 12:49:52 pm
I'm a bit tired of Solarius's attitude of 'I know better, silly players', and haven't had a good rant lately, so...

He is the only one, who knows what he wants in his mod.
By definition, nobody knows better than him.
If you don't like the mod, don't play it.

Then maybe it's time to re-examine this? Because if you have to (unsuccessfully) defend a change several times, maybe it wasn't a good one.

He has to defend only against people who don't like it.
What if majority likes it?
Is it time to re-examine it in that case too?

Do you think there is even a slightest chance of successfully defending vaccinations in front of antivaxxers?
(Spoiler: not in a million years... doesn't mean we should stop vaccinating, quite the opposite)

This decision makes for poor gameplay.

Yeah, that's why xcom is the best game of all times.
Because it's full of poor gameplay decisions like this.

Alien infiltration is essentially a random 'fuck you' event, one where you have zero input to the result.

As intended.
Even by designers like Julian Gollop.
I like it.
And I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Juku121 on July 24, 2021, 06:05:22 pm
*De-lurks again*

Not sure it's a good idea to a respond to this, but, eh, since I already started ranting...

*Re-lurks, leaving some spoiler droppings behind*
He is the only one, who knows what he wants in his mod.
By definition, nobody knows better than him.
Sure. But if he publishes the mod, he presumably wants feedback and others to play it. I have my own mods, and the few that I've published come with explicit caveats "This is a mod for me, if you don't like it, tough. You might convince me otherwise." Not the case here, Solarius himself admits he plays the thing less than he should and dismisses half the criticism off-hand. Which is why I delurked and ranted. :-\ I don't like that style of development, at all. Either keep your feedback at an arm's length like most pros, or actually engage with it.

If you don't like the mod, don't play it.
I do like significant parts of it. But stripping out and changing what I find silly, imbalanced or just poor-quality is a major task, one I attempted once and occasionally still consider redoing. I have other projects at the moment. 

He has to defend only against people who don't like it.
What if majority likes it?
What if Gollop told me in a private and confidential e-mail in 1995 that he considers it a mistake? :P

That argument can be levied against most criticism and thus lacks merit unless you actually have data to prove it. And usually a feature lots of people like does not lack for defenders, ones with actual arguments instead of "take it or leave it". Plus, nobody I know likes 'fanbois' on AAA game forums/social media who tout this exact line you're pushing here.

In any case, I don't actually dislike the infiltration mechanic in general. As I wrote before, I could even see and like a (well-done) focused version of it. I dislike it being as it is in XCF because of (poorly explained) 'realism' and not much else that I can tell.

Do you think there is even a slightest chance of successfully defending vaccinations in front of antivaxxers?
Depends on their reasons, but generally yes for the non-hardcore ones. Those who are not into 'Bill Gates, Soros, 5G, Big Pharma, wake up!', but rather 'but I got really sick from the first jab', 'but my friend said...', 'I have condition X', 'I can't have days off', 'I only have at most a few years to live, anyway', etc. These are actually the majority, and that's why the governments, medics, WHO and the anti-antivax crowd are running their campaigns, with varying degrees of commitment and success.

Yeah, that's why xcom is the best game of all times.
Because it's full of poor gameplay decisions like this.
Vanilla X-Com has a number of poor design decisions, like being able to research plasma weapons from zero, heavy plasma proliferation, limitless mind control, plasma beams on interceptors, bughunts, just to mention a few. It's a terrific game despite these, not because of them.

Anyway, that sort of hyperbole is useless as an argument. A flaw does not cease being a problem because flaws are rare. More the converse, actually.

As intended.
Even by designers like Julian Gollop.
You have a quote from Gollop for this, I presume?

And I'm pretty sure if you take 20 random veteran game designers and ask them if a game should have periodic 'fuck you' events that are completely random and have zero input, at least 19 would say "Hell, no!".

And Gollop has pretty much conclusively demonstrated that he knows how to make a good tactical game, but not necessarily the strategic part. The original UFO was a perfect storm of founding the genre, being a refinement of Gollops' previous tactical games, executive meddling and things just coming together. Now that he's been given years of funding, including not having to worry about sales, a personal dev studio, and all the feedback in the world, Phoenix Point is still a flawed gem that lives and dies on the merits of its tactical part.

I like it.
And I'm sure I'm not the only one.
This line of thought is pretty much copied from those 'antivaxxers' you so disparage.

It also seems to be Solarius's default response to any criticism. :-\

TLDR: This exchange is basically 'Solarius can shoot himself in the balls if he wants to, and I like it' vs 'Yes, but why is he doing so in public and you're both insisting it's a good idea? :o
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Meridian on July 24, 2021, 06:31:05 pm
The only thing I can add is that you show even stronger "I know better, silly modders and silly devs" complex than what you're accusing Solarius of.

Your arguments for "insisting it's a bad idea" are at least as bad as our arguments for "insisting it's a good idea".

We are discussing these things in public, because we listen to the feedback... but we (or at least I) do not accept any requests, there are only suggestions.
Ultimately, I (and Yankes) make every single decision of what makes it into OXCE and what not... modders have zero say in that and players have also zero say in that.
Hope you're not too surprised.
I personally have added this feature into OpenXcom (in July 2018: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,5932.msg100448.html#msg100448), in good faith that it will be used where appropriate.
I made the feature configurable, so that the modders can test it and decide whether it fits with their mod or not.
Solarius tried it and found out it doesn't fit... end of the story.

EDIT: Both Solarius and I have invested significant effort into this feature... I'd say even too much... nobody can say we didn't give it an honest try. What more do you expect?
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Juku121 on July 24, 2021, 07:58:30 pm
The only thing I can add is that you show even stronger "I know better, silly modders and silly devs" complex than what you're accusing Solarius of.
I have told you why I think the way I do, and welcome actual criticism. You responded with suspect debating tactics and 'trust me, we tried'. I have strong opinions, yes. These can and frequently have been changed by reasoning, not appeals to authority.

I'm not even sure why you felt the need to post this. You were free to ignore me, I already know and even acknowledged the 'my work, my rules' arguments you've presented here (again), and the rest is essentially you patting yourself on the back.

Your arguments for "insisting it's a bad idea" are at least as bad as our arguments for "insisting it's a good idea".
Then demonstrate that, show my arguments are wrong, inapplicable or misguided. You have done exactly none of that, and based on your posting history, I don't see that changing.

We are discussing these things in public, because we listen to the feedback...
Sure. But if feedback goes into a black box of 'we listened to it, and liked/didn't like it', it's disincentivises giving more.

...but we (or at least I) do not accept any requests, there are only suggestions.
I'm not making either, and I'm definitely not making one for OXCE. I'm posting this in the (extremely faint) hope that Solarius recognises the problems with engaging only half-way, and completely removing features nobody complained about for essentially fluff reasons.

In short, I'm saying: "Solarius, you're not communicating your lore well, it has some sizeable holes in it, and you are then trying to use it to justify design decisions". IDK how you got a feature request out of that or why you feel the need to attack this via ad hominems and repeating "we don't need to listen to you". Just ignore me, if that's the beginning and end of it for you. Solarius can speak for himself.

Solarius tried it and found out it doesn't fit... end of the story.
That may or may not be true. The only criteria the feature has failed so far seem to be "It's silly (from Solarius' POV)" and "Meridian likes it the way it was in the OG". These are good reasons enough to include or exclude them from your work, of course, but not nearly sufficient as arguments in a design discussion, which you're determined to make them into.

That is, my point is not "we must have counter-infiltration!" It's that either it doesn't fit Solarius's vision of how X-Com works, in which case the rules the XCF version of the organisation works by need to be actually put into the game and not just an obscure corner of the UFOPedia, and other features that fail the same test (all the super-hacking that somehow just works, the global Psiclone drug run, instant dissemination of monster DDT, transhumans rioting in public prisons, being given strategic nuclear/fusion weapons with little oversight, etc) need a look, too. Which is a lot of work. Or it does fit, but not in the current form, and would need tweaking. I'm okay with Solarious saying "Yeah, okay, but it's a lot of work. Takes time. I've got more interesting stuff to do, besides". I did something similar myself not two hours ago. I'm not okay with both of you brushing it off as 'silly, obviously impossible to make not-silly' or 'Solarius can do as he wants, we don't have to speak with you, except to put you down'.

What more do you expect?
An actual reason why a game feature of completely random and irrecoverable losses makes the game/mod more fun? XCF already has a lot of randomness in it, some of it practically game-altering. Infiltrations as they are are not that, they're flavour that pushes many players' buttons the wrong way. What if poker had a rule that every round, everyone rolls a die and getting a one means another player can pick a card you have to discard? No redraws, either, you continue with an understrength hand. Might be interesting once or twice as a novelty, but not long-term.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 24, 2021, 08:56:09 pm
Thank you, MEridian, I really appreciate it.

Bottom line, anyone can make a submod. With country reclamation, blackjack, hookers, furries, gremlins, JoJo memes, Rick & Morty references, foie gras and Donald Trump quotes. I really won't mind.

To be clear: at this point I am not really satisfied with the mod. It is still WIP, and also I have some design regrets. But when I keep explaining with simple terms why something is bad, and I repeatedly hear the same weak arguments I've refuted many times before, then I am not even bother doing it again. Because it's madness, white noise, not "feedback".

Also, Juku, screw you and your crude metaphors. Go be an insufferable prick somewhere else.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: GarrettFox on August 07, 2021, 05:24:20 am
Thank you, MEridian, I really appreciate it.

Bottom line, anyone can make a submod. With country reclamation, blackjack, hookers, furries, gremlins, JoJo memes, Rick & Morty references, foie gras and Donald Trump quotes. I really won't mind.

To be clear: at this point I am not really satisfied with the mod. It is still WIP, and also I have some design regrets. But when I keep explaining with simple terms why something is bad, and I repeatedly hear the same weak arguments I've refuted many times before, then I am not even bother doing it again. Because it's madness, white noise, not "feedback".

Also, Juku, screw you and your crude metaphors. Go be an insufferable prick somewhere else.

Regardless of whether you disagree with him, this really isn't an appropriate response.

As mod creator you absolutely get final say on content, but nothing grants you license to be rude to folks who are presenting their side and attempting to support it with evidence.

I'm not certain I understand the notion of XCOM having to take control in order to restore a region. A clandestine agency never takes control, they weaken the current power structure in order to allow a more favorable one to seize control. Normally this presents the problem of ensuring that the one seizing control is friendly, but it is ostensibly easier in those case, as mostly you just have to ensure that they are human and oppose the invasion. You are fighting an enemy that has to functionally continue to wage war in a pseudo amphibious fashion against a planet. Even assuming the local population doesn't have sufficient resistance to seize power, their neighbors likely would.

But reality and what makes sense in terms of design decisions are not necessarily the same. I'm merely pointing out that realistically XCOM doesn't have to take control of anything in order to retake a nation. What decisions you make for the mod is, of course, your decision. 

Edit: fixed the weird double quote
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Bonakva on August 08, 2021, 02:03:40 am
For myself, I do this. If I destroyed the base, I edit the save and return the country...
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Finnik on August 08, 2021, 12:54:55 pm
For myself, I do this. If I destroyed the base, I edit the save and return the country...

You can instead apply tiny mod with just one ruleset line https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldm0p0npa9q85oj/Liberation.rar?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldm0p0npa9q85oj/Liberation.rar?dl=0)
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Bonakva on August 08, 2021, 06:32:22 pm
You can instead apply tiny mod with just one ruleset line https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldm0p0npa9q85oj/Liberation.rar?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldm0p0npa9q85oj/Liberation.rar?dl=0)
Oh... It's really more comfortable that way.
Thanks
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 20, 2021, 03:54:33 pm
Regardless of whether you disagree with him, this really isn't an appropriate response.

Oh my, look at me giving all the fucks!

I don't think you realize that this issue has long gone past any kind of reasonable discussion and has basically devolved into harassment by blind fanatics. I'm not going to take it nicely. I have already my position dozens of times, and it doesn't look like these people even bothered to read it. At this point I openly say that I have been too patient.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Juku121 on August 20, 2021, 07:38:11 pm
Just for the record...

...I have read a variety of Solarius's opinions on the matter, and they are more nuanced than can be seen in this thread. It's just that they have never been succintly elaborated in any one post, or fully on this forum, either. And I do understand where some of his concerns come from. I'm even okay with the removal of embassies as they were. I just don't think his arguments for leaving infiltration as it is are as good as he thinks.

As for his behaviour, if a content creator cannot handle public interaction without getting personal, the better choice is to not say anything at all. Or get a PR guy, or do as Meridian does, say that the decision has been made and you're not interested in more discussion, regardless of its validity or lack thereof, and don't argue any further. Throwing a tantrum will never improve a situation like this. I made my first post ever on the topic, tried to be polite and look at both sides... and got sweared at.

In any case, it is as it is. Solarius is no longer quite the same serene public persona he was five years ago, and we just have to accept it or find other playgrounds. Dioxine is far worse on the PR front, and lots of people can interact with him okay(-ish) and enjoy his creations just fine. I'm not going to try to argue with either of them ever again, it's like wrestling in a mud pit.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: krautbernd on August 21, 2021, 03:11:33 pm
Oh my, look at me giving all the fucks!

I don't think you realize that this issue has long gone past any kind of reasonable discussion and has basically devolved into harassment by blind fanatics. I'm not going to take it nicely. I have already my position dozens of times, and it doesn't look like these people even bothered to read it. At this point I openly say that I have been too patient.

You might have noticed that the "blind fanatics" actually use your own arguments against you, as the lore you've established so far doesn't really line up with what you're saying.

If your sole excuse for this was that it's either hard to implement in a satisfactory manner or that you simply don't want to implement it for balancing reasons this probably wouldn't be an issue. But painting X-Com as a bunch of gung-ho mercenaries who wouldn't be able to pull something like this off while they are literally transcending humanity and can replicate techno-magic just does not add up.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Juku121 on August 21, 2021, 05:35:23 pm
Some of it is also that the XCF-verse differs quite a bit from both RL and vanilla X-Com, and a lot of the details exist only in Solarius's mind (and maybe posts). I suppose it's a good thing that mapmaking and other new things take precedence, because my SoD is already shot and buried.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Mrvex on August 21, 2021, 06:27:48 pm
I always understood the infiltration as the soft timer of the game, while XCOM 1 has country panic and XCOM 2 has Avatar, countries pulling away over time, cutting you off your money would be...well a timer.
If it wasnt actually completely void, by the time you have so many countries pulled out from giving money, you probably have so much money in reverse and any UFO run and selling of plasma weapons and its contents would probably keep you well above the water in terms of finances.

Like, if countries could pull out prior to 99 then i would call this artifical difficulty but some responses to it seems abit excessive for both sides when in the end the country pacts mean fuckall in actual game. Yes you losing some money with literally no way to prevent it and now no way to revert it sucks, but it doesnt break the game because at the point where it would become gameplay affecting (Like 50% of countries pulled out) then XCOM probably is so rich at that point and the game has run over its suppose lifespan, the game doesnt expect you to drag on the fight against aliens for like 5 years....

Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Juku121 on August 21, 2021, 08:34:31 pm
As I said in my first post on the topic, that would be completely fine if this mechanic was designed as a timer. But it isn't, right now. It's details are largely carried over from vanilla, while all the other aspects of the game are significantly changed. Especially the length of time spent playing, the relatively higher importance of Council funding and massively slower research. You could breeze through OG X-Com in a couple of sittings if you focused on it. People have been playing XCF for RL years.


For reference:

Vanilla infiltration: random 20% chance each month, 2*20% after half a year. One infiltration can take over an entire region (about 8-9 that matter). Council funding is icing on the cake. The game lasts for maybe a year or two. On average, you might lose about two-three regions in the first year, and if you cared about funding, that'd make you start to hurry. But it doesn't. Even Gollop admitted at one point it wasn't really working as intended.

XCF infiltration: ~3-6% per month + another 11%, both after the invasion proper starts. And some one-off invasions for letting the four cults live too long. One infiltration per country (33 total). Council funding is vital to get you off the ground, and a good chunk of your income for quite a while. Manufacturing is no longer profitable and alien loot prices have been nerfed some. I'm not sure how long the game is supposed to last, but I'd guess five years or so at least, unless you bumrush it. That'll lose you maybe six the countries (a fifth) on average, with a large amount of randomness thrown into the mix because of these very low trigger chances and whether the target is a significant donor or not. That's usually negligible except as flavour (of the 'fuck you, player!' variety :( ), but an unfortunate series of events can cripple someone well into midgame through no fault of their own.

The first, big issue here is the total randomness. Why are only some players hit by the timer, and some harder than others, e.g. the US resigning at the start of the invasion? This subforum has quite a few people posting how they're just hanging on when 1999 hits, and I would completely understand it if one of them got hit by, say, two infiltrations of major donors, went into a downward spiral and lost the game, and then uninstalled XCF in disgust.

The second is that players have no agency when it comes to infiltration, which is generally not a good way to make a game.

The third and shakiest is that the X-Com organisation has no agency, while a number of pedia articles at least suggest they ought to.

Finally, if your main argument in favour of current infiltration is "It sucks, but it doesn't make the game unplayable", then... it's not much of a defence. :)

XCOM1 designed the whole panic and abduction thing as a central mechanic of the game and tested it thoroughly. I haven't touched XCOM2 and am not planning to.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 27, 2021, 01:57:24 pm
I simply failed to convince myself that X-Com would be able to influence the fate of empires. That is all.

Also, Dioxine told me it was fucking stupid and bad taste. :P
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: ashtroboy79 on August 27, 2021, 03:21:04 pm
so im not here to convince anyone, one way or the other, i just want to say that Jan 99 was very brutal for me with almost 20 ufos of various sizes in russia, and obviously i couldnt deal with anything bigger than medium in any proper way, and at the end of jan 99, russia had signed a deal with the aliens, and this is with me having dealt with the 4 cults by mid-december 98 and having promo3 by start of dec98. It just felt like a complete kick in the teeth as id done everything i could up till that point and had positive scores, and about a months worth of IRL investment in the evenings. So when and if i get round to dealing with the colony in russia, ill probably give them a few months of just nothing and the "cheat" and edit the save to bring them back into the fold, as if they can flip to the aliens in a month, they can probavbly flip back yo humans after a few months, kinda like in UNEXCOM.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 27, 2021, 03:25:52 pm
so im not here to convince anyone, one way or the other, i just want to say that Jan 99 was very brutal for me with almost 20 ufos of various sizes in russia, and obviously i couldnt deal with anything bigger than medium in any proper way, and at the end of jan 99, russia had signed a deal with the aliens, and this is with me having dealt with the 4 cults by mid-december 98 and having promo3 by start of dec98. It just felt like a complete kick in the teeth as id done everything i could up till that point and had positive scores, and about a months worth of IRL investment in the evenings. So when and if i get round to dealing with the colony in russia, ill probably give them a few months of just nothing and the "cheat" and edit the save to bring them back into the fold, as if they can flip to the aliens in a month, they can probavbly flip back yo humans after a few months, kinda like in UNEXCOM.

Indeed it's supposed to happen, but in reality it is not the end of the world - it only means a bit less money and a bit more aliens. But of course, feel free to edit your save to your liking, it's not a crime.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Juku121 on August 27, 2021, 05:49:00 pm
I simply failed to convince myself that X-Com would be able to influence the fate of empires.
That's fine. Not entirely consistent, but what fiction is? :P The embassy mechanic was kinda convoluted.

My point was and is, this is not the beginning and the end of infiltration. You could just add a chance to kill infiltration if the player is able to consistently intercept and shut down infiltration missions. Then you could point e.g. ashtroboy79 to that fact, ask if he had enough air power, and say that it's his fault for not focusing on that. Even though realistically he couldn't actually have had enough, it'd give the illusion of there being a choice, and that he picked the wrong one. Not the current undertone of "Haha, so you wasted a month's worth of evenings? Just as planned!" Indeed, later on there actually would be a choice.

Edit: Or, well, ramp up the special infiltration mission's trigger chance as the game goes on. Then it'd actually be a timer, even if it's ultimately just the timer for a bad-looking funding report. :)
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Fomka on August 27, 2021, 06:56:17 pm
Alien embassy... I've just finished off STR_ALIEN_BIG_BASE -- a red square on the globe, an obsolete mission (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,5047.msg139013.html#msg139013) that appeared as a rudiment of Alien embassies that were thrown away, I suppose. Got Tritanium knives from it. They fall into X-COM tech category of weapons. But X-COM sees them for the first time. Also a rudiment? Not a bug?
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 28, 2021, 01:39:49 pm
That's fine. Not entirely consistent, but what fiction is? :P

TBH I don't exactly see what it's inconsistent with, but it's not really important.

I'll try paying extra attention to the lore, maybe something needs a review.

The embassy mechanic was kinda convoluted.

By golly, yes it was...

My point was and is, this is not the beginning and the end of infiltration. You could just add a chance to kill infiltration if the player is able to consistently intercept and shut down infiltration missions. Then you could point e.g. ashtroboy79 to that fact, ask if he had enough air power, and say that it's his fault for not focusing on that. Even though realistically he couldn't actually have had enough, it'd give the illusion of there being a choice, and that he picked the wrong one. Not the current undertone of "Haha, so you wasted a month's worth of evenings? Just as planned!" Indeed, later on there actually would be a choice.

But it already works like that! (It should, anyway...)

Edit: Or, well, ramp up the special infiltration mission's trigger chance as the game goes on. Then it'd actually be a timer, even if it's ultimately just the timer for a bad-looking funding report. :)

Can be done, but honestly, I don't feel like it's worth the effort.

Alien embassy... I've just finished off STR_ALIEN_BIG_BASE -- a red square on the globe, an obsolete mission (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,5047.msg139013.html#msg139013) that appeared as a rudiment of Alien embassies that were thrown away, I suppose. Got Tritanium knives from it. They fall into X-COM tech category of weapons. But X-COM sees them for the first time. Also a rudiment? Not a bug?

I think the only way to obtain these knives is from MiBs. They tend to not care about rules. :)
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Juku121 on August 28, 2021, 03:40:08 pm
But it already works like that! (It should, anyway...)
Only for retaliation, not infiltration or other missions.

If that also applied to infiltration, a lot of the 'inconsistency' would go away and players would again have an actual chance to interact with the mechanic. And the reasons for losing a country would be somewhat more transparent (all them naked sectoids flying around and crashing government parties, with nary a soul thinking of the children... :P ).

TBH I don't exactly see what it's inconsistent with, but it's not really important.
Well, from my POV (probably from krautbernds's as well, to some degree) X-Com can thumb its nose at the Council with just score penalties several times, pulls off wildly implausible (in anything even remotely resembling RL 90s, anyway) things to shut down the four cults and monsters, and generally messes up the aliens plans a lot. I also think that regaining a lost country needs a lot more setup, but losing one just like that, no warning, no ability to do anything about it, no messages from 'friends on the Council', no nothing... Just feels off. YMMV, obviously.

Can be done, but honestly, I don't feel like it's worth the effort.
Probably true. Balancing an effective timer into a WIP project is a massive PITA.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 04, 2021, 02:19:59 pm
Only for retaliation, not infiltration or other missions.

Well:

Code: [Select]
  - type: STR_ALIEN_INFILTRATION
    endlessInfiltration: false

This should be doing what you said, unless I just don't know what I'm talking about.

Well, from my POV (probably from krautbernds's as well, to some degree) X-Com can thumb its nose at the Council with just score penalties several times, pulls off wildly implausible (in anything even remotely resembling RL 90s, anyway) things to shut down the four cults and monsters, and generally messes up the aliens plans a lot. I also think that regaining a lost country needs a lot more setup, but losing one just like that, no warning, no ability to do anything about it, no messages from 'friends on the Council', no nothing... Just feels off. YMMV, obviously.

Like you said, YMMV. To me, these things look far more plausible, considering the backing you have. But directly influencing heads of state goes way more beyond what the Council stands for, mostly because it's not part of the "shadow war", but relatively public.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Juku121 on September 04, 2021, 02:42:22 pm
Code: [Select]
  - type: STR_ALIEN_INFILTRATION
    endlessInfiltration: false

This should be doing what you said...
That one just disables 'full-region' infiltration. What I meant are the 'interruptPercentage' entries in alien mission data that can completely eliminate an ongoing infiltration mission.

To me, these things look far more plausible, considering the backing you have. But directly influencing heads of state goes way more beyond what the Council stands for, mostly because it's not part of the "shadow war", but relatively public.
My view of this is that such things were and mostly still are flat out impossible, no matter the backing. Unless there actually is some kind of world government with powers exceeding even modern-day China. In which case there's no need for 'shadowing' the war, what the government says, goes.

And influencing heads of state may or may not be on the table, but the infiltration thing is mostly about messing with the alien part of it. No alien negotiators, no infiltration. :)

Also, I kinda liked the mission itself, no matter its background.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Hadriex on October 03, 2021, 03:56:56 pm
Wow this thread got a bit spicy at points. And I'm late to seeing it, but I still want to give my 2 cents.

I kinda feel as far as game design losing countries permanently puts more pressure on the player, consequences for failing to stop those pesky UFOs and disrupting their efforts, instead of just 'eh. whatever, I'll get it back later.' Makes it a real war.

That said, The idea of Xcom taking out alien sympathizers and placing leaders who are more 'sympathetic' to Xcom's cause doesn't strike me as unlikely. Especially with their connections and powers. Perhaps it would involve more of an investment then knocking down an embassy but it seems reasonable. Shadow wars are all about regime changes and shady shit like that. But I really do prefer 'countries leave permanently' from a gameplay perspective, though ideally with a bit more leeway for the players to counter it.


Actually I'd take it a step further, the aliens F the countries up. I mean mass alteration of the population, mind control, putting stuff in the food and water, etc. Make it clear that this country has fallen, and when the war is over it will a long and difficult process to undo what has been done to the population. The aliens didn't come all this way just to replace a few political leaders after all.


Dunno if the engine could handle it, but what if new countries joined in the funding after a certain point in the game. As the threat becomes more apparent the council brings in more people.

Or even weirder, after you make nice with leaders in shogg they start offering monthly resources (here's some gold bars you can sell). Things like that really bother the council (that don't want you to become beholden to non-human powers) but grant you some leeway as human nations fall.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Mrvex on October 04, 2021, 01:49:17 pm

Or even weirder, after you make nice with leaders in shogg they start offering monthly resources (here's some gold bars you can sell). Things like that really bother the council (that don't want you to become beholden to non-human powers) but grant you some leeway as human nations fall.

Handouts from non-council sources does actually sound really cool. I would have expected that corporations would also start funding XCOM when countries start to fall and they can see the writing on the wall that if XCOM is gone, so is Humanity. And mainly, there wont be any customers and money to be made if everyone is dead or enslaved.

MAGMA without a doubt seems to be most symphatetic towards XCOM, Shogg Kingdoms, the underwater arc created corporation (by XCOM !) could be sending some of its profits back to its daddy, Blackops and UAC could start supporting XCOM if you eliminated the Cult of Apocalypse and Syndicate. And even some secret groups like Illuminati and MJ12 could start supplying XCOM with cash.

That is, if its even possible to add new countries as corps and groups of interest that will start giving you money once you finish an arc or make a certain research. These non-countries would also give a static income and couldnt be infiltrated. This would also reward the player for finishing story arcs AND give him some sort of safety net when his biggest sources of money get infiltrated.
Title: Re: Entere the alien embasy
Post by: Fomka on October 04, 2021, 06:39:00 pm
Consider the small amount of countries' funding for X-COM compared to their Gross Domestic Products. They spend very little on X-COM. One of the reasons — it's a secret project. So yes, some corporations can fill the gap of countries fallen off together with their tiny pouches of money.

Japan right now in my game (mid 1999) spends 3,4 mln USD on X-COM, it is only 0,0000075% out of its 4562000 mln USD of GDP.