OpenXcom Forum

Modding => OpenXcom Extended => Topic started by: Nord on September 10, 2018, 06:45:26 pm

Title: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Nord on September 10, 2018, 06:45:26 pm
I have a request. Or maybe a question:
What if "costUse", "costPanic" and "costMindcontrol" will use Psi skill or psi strength?
Now - it is nothing happens, i know. But what will be game behavior if?

EDIT by Meridian: feature implementation described/documented here: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,7241.0.html
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Meridian on September 10, 2018, 06:54:59 pm
I have a request. Or maybe a question:
What if "costUse", "costPanic" and "costMindcontrol" will use Psi skill or psi strength?
Now - it is nothing happens, i know. But what will be game behavior if?

I don't understand the question.

Psi strength and Psi skill are constants, they cannot be changed or "used up" in combat.
(same as why you can't "use" Firing Accuracy or Strength or Bravery, etc.)
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 10, 2018, 07:08:47 pm
I think he might be asking if psi power could alter the TU cost?
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Nord on September 10, 2018, 08:22:01 pm
Well, easiest way is to explain with the example(theoretically!):
psi skill renamed to mana. Using any psionic abilities spends mana and thus abilities can become weaker.
1. then psi skill resstores after battle ends.
2. to restore psi-skill you must use some kind of training in psi lab (let's call it meditate in some Dart Vader's spherical chamber)

But if it is only a constant, only first choice can be made relative easy. With adding variable, existing through one battle.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Meridian on September 10, 2018, 08:46:28 pm
No, psi skill cannot be used as mana.

But adding a new concept of mana is doable.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Yankes on September 10, 2018, 09:02:12 pm
I planed something like that in 4.0 and probably it will be ready in 4.1 or 4.2. Each use of item will call script and this script could change some property. Another script call before will check if you can use item at all. With this to script you could spend your "psi" (by altering status of battle unit and checking it).
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Nord on September 10, 2018, 09:58:49 pm

No, psi skill cannot be used as mana.

But adding a new concept of mana is doable.
Sad. Idea was in attribute (property, stat), that can be spended through mission and needs global time to train back/restore.
I planed something like that in 4.0 and probably it will be ready in 4.1 or 4.2. Each use of item will call script and this script could change some property. Another script call before will check if you can use item at all. With this to script you could spend your "psi" (by altering status of battle unit and checking it).
This is great.
I see a thin spot - this new property will need some kind of visualization in numeric, just as forcefields need it now(but dont have).
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: robin on September 10, 2018, 10:11:15 pm
AFAIK something similar can be done already, you can make psi attacks cost morale and/or energy... Right?
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 10, 2018, 10:13:38 pm
AFAIK something similar can be done already, you can make psi attacks cost morale and/or energy... Right?

Yes, that's exactly how it was done in Piratez, and also in The X-Com Files.
I've never been a huge fan of the concept of mana in X-Com; even if it was available, I'd rather use energy and morale instead. But for some mods it may be fitting.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Meridian on September 10, 2018, 10:22:16 pm
Sad. Idea was in attribute (property, stat), that can be spended through mission and needs global time to train back/restore.

What is sad?
I said it is doable... just with a new property, because misusing existing one is not possible.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 11, 2018, 11:26:38 am
I think using stamina is an excellent way to do it. You can make a psionic armor that increases stamina regen rate, or a more powerful psi amp that can be used at long range and allow your soldier to avoid walking as much...or both.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Meridian on September 11, 2018, 11:35:00 am
I think using stamina is an excellent way to do it. You can make a psionic armor that increases stamina regen rate, or a more powerful psi amp that can be used at long range and allow your soldier to avoid walking as much...or both.

Just guessing, but I think Nord already considered that option... since it is quite obvious.
(and we're talking about Energy here, not Stamina... Energy changes, Stamina is a constant)
(same as Morale changes, Bravery is a constant)
(same as -- maybe in the future -- Mana changes, Psi Skill/Strength are a constant)

However, Energy is already used for many other things... like walking, shooting, throwing, etc.
And it also regenerates every turn.
I believe Nord wanted a way to limit Psi spam by introducing a separate non-regenerating pool of mana.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: BTAxis on September 11, 2018, 12:40:29 pm
I'm wondering how mana levels would be communicated to the player though. If it isn't easily readable on the battlescape it sounds like it would be terribly tedious to manage.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Nord on September 11, 2018, 01:00:43 pm
I believe Nord wanted a way to limit Psi spam by introducing a separate non-regenerating pool of mana.
Exactly!
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Meridian on September 11, 2018, 01:32:03 pm
I'm wondering how mana levels would be communicated to the player though. If it isn't easily readable on the battlescape it sounds like it would be terribly tedious to manage.

I would definitely display it on the UI... don't know how yet, but without it, we don't even need to think about introducing it.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: ohartenstein23 on September 11, 2018, 01:43:47 pm
I made a test mod to play with making a kind of "ammo system" for psi attacks using scripts - you can see it here (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,6168.0.html). However, gating MC/Panic behind this kind of system would require Yankes to finish writing his proposed script hook for determining whether or not you can use an item.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 11, 2018, 03:53:23 pm
I'm wondering how mana levels would be communicated to the player though. If it isn't easily readable on the battlescape it sounds like it would be terribly tedious to manage.

Why not do it like stamina/energy? In combat, the Psi Skill bar gets replaced with Psi Energy (or whatever the modder calls it) and it gets used up as psi attacks get used, causing effective psi skill to go down.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Meridian on September 11, 2018, 04:43:02 pm
Why not do it like stamina/energy? In combat, the Psi Skill bar gets replaced with Psi Energy (or whatever the modder calls it) and it gets used up as psi attacks get used, causing effective psi skill to go down.

Ideally, you would want to see it directly on the battlescape GUI, just like current TU/energy/health/stun/morale.
Going to another screen to get this info is... sub-optimal.

But if nothing better is possible, I think it is acceptable.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Nord on September 11, 2018, 06:11:43 pm
Why not do it like stamina/energy? In combat, the Psi Skill bar gets replaced with Psi Energy (or whatever the modder calls it) and it gets used up as psi attacks get used, causing effective psi skill to go down.
I like this idea very much. Maybe not ideal, but great and easy to understand.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: BTAxis on September 11, 2018, 07:12:50 pm
I don't like the idea of psi effectiveness dropping with each use of a psi skill though. It'd put too much emphasis on making the best use of that first, full-power use.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Meridian on September 11, 2018, 07:29:59 pm
I don't like the idea of psi effectiveness dropping with each use of a psi skill though. It'd put too much emphasis on making the best use of that first, full-power use.

It wouldn't... as I said, Psi Skill remains a constant... no discussion.

Only the field, which used to show Psi Skill, and would now be showing Mana instead (i.e. a completely different attribute), would be going down as the mana gets used during the battle.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Nord on September 11, 2018, 08:58:35 pm
It wouldn't... as I said, Psi Skill remains a constant... no discussion.

Only the field, which used to show Psi Skill, and would now be showing Mana instead (i.e. a completely different attribute), would be going down as the mana gets used during the battle.
And then the modder can use both constant psi-skill or variable mana in item properties. :-)
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 11, 2018, 09:22:57 pm
Ideally, you would want to see it directly on the battlescape GUI, just like current TU/energy/health/stun/morale.
Going to another screen to get this info is... sub-optimal.
That's what I meant. On the battlescape GUI, what you see is your current remaining Psi Energy. You can easily determine your Psi Skill because it is equal to your maximum Psi Energy. But I also figured the act of using the Psi Energy was causing the effective skill of the attack to drop. But whether or not the effective Psi Skill drops, using the GUI Psi Skill bar to display both Psi Skill and Psi Energy (by showing Psi Energy current/max) works perfectly.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Meridian on September 11, 2018, 09:36:00 pm
That's what I meant. On the battlescape GUI, what you see is your current remaining Psi Energy. You can easily determine your Psi Skill because it is equal to your maximum Psi Energy. But I also figured the act of using the Psi Energy was causing the effective skill of the attack to drop. But whether or not the effective Psi Skill drops, using the GUI Psi Skill bar to display both Psi Skill and Psi Energy (by showing Psi Energy current/max) works perfectly.

OK, I thought you must be talking about Soldier Info GUI... because there is just no more space to put this on the Battlescape GUI.
But maybe someone will come up with a clever trick to sqeeze it somewhere, somehow.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 11, 2018, 11:50:39 pm
OK, I thought you must be talking about Soldier Info GUI... because there is just no more space to put this on the Battlescape GUI.
But maybe someone will come up with a clever trick to sqeeze it somewhere, somehow.
Maybe add a feature to let the modder or player decide which four bars are displayed. But in my plays, I don't use psi attacks enough that I'd feel the Psi Energy needs to show outside of the soldier info screen. I could easily just check the info screen for remaining Psi Energy, same as I do to check their effective psi power before using a psi attack, or to check their remaining armor after they take a hit or before going into line of fire.

I'm sure an artist could find a way to squeeze in a fifth bar, if anyone is up to the challenge. But if nobody does redesign it, I don't foresee it being a major issue.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Stoddard on September 12, 2018, 12:42:49 am
OK, I thought you must be talking about Soldier Info GUI... because there is just no more space to put this on the Battlescape GUI.
But maybe someone will come up with a clever trick to sqeeze it somewhere, somehow.

Show it like stun is shown, another color on the same bar as energy for example, but draw higher values first, so f.ex if energy is higher than mana, mana is drawn on top of energy and both are visible at all times.


Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 12, 2018, 03:05:44 am
(https://i.imgur.com/bY45guP.png)


Show it like stun is shown, another color on the same bar as energy for example, but draw higher values first, so f.ex if energy is higher than mana, mana is drawn on top of energy and both are visible at all times.
The problem with that is that Stamina and Psi Energy don't use the same maximum value.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Stoddard on September 12, 2018, 02:46:03 pm
The problem with that is that Stamina and Psi Energy don't use the same maximum value.

That's not a problem, like I said, draw the maximum value from largest to lowest, as with actual value.

(https://i.img.ie/uis.png)
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: BTAxis on September 12, 2018, 04:13:30 pm
If you're going to piggyback on energy in general, how about clicking on the numerical energy display to toggle showing the exact amount of mana?
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Yankes on September 12, 2018, 07:42:12 pm
Why not display this on PsiAmp? we have place for ammo that is not used. We could override this value and use this for something else.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Ethereal on September 12, 2018, 08:29:56 pm
The idea is not bad, but it will require a lot of work. Too many things to rewrite. And besides... Are you sure this can be balanced? What about the AI? How will AI use this?
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 12, 2018, 08:54:06 pm
What about the AI? How will AI use this?
That's already in the AI. It uses resources, and fails when there's not enough.

If the power gradually reduces as the energy is used up, then the AI simply needs to re-evaluate the chance of success based on remaining psi energy.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Meridian on September 12, 2018, 09:04:15 pm
If the power gradually reduces as the energy is used up, then the AI simply needs to re-evaluate the chance of success based on remaining psi energy.

Nothing simply happens :) Someone has to write code for it...
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 12, 2018, 09:42:15 pm
Nothing simply happens :) Someone has to write code for it...
You know what I mean. I'm not saying stuff happens without anyone doing anything. I am well aware that these things take a lot of work, and if I haven't made it clear enough, I really appreciate everything you guys do for this game. I was simply indicating to Ethereal that making the AI able to use the "mana/psi energy" would be no great mystery or puzzle to solve but would be a fairly straightforward element of the whole process.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Meridian on July 17, 2019, 03:20:40 pm
Ruleset documentation: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,7241.0.html
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: ohartenstein23 on July 17, 2019, 04:29:12 pm
Huzzah, been looking forward to this!
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Finnik on July 17, 2019, 08:28:01 pm
Nice! Thank you)
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Yankes on July 17, 2019, 10:26:21 pm
This is permanent resources that need time to regen? This could be used (after name change) to simulate long term exhaustion.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Meridian on July 18, 2019, 12:02:27 am
This is permanent resources that need time to regen? This could be used (after name change) to simulate long term exhaustion.

It can work both ways, with full automatic regen after the mission (default)... or with regen over time using specialized facilities (configurable, request by Nord).
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: davide on July 18, 2019, 02:29:44 am
Darkest Dungeon game manages similar stress condition
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Meridian on July 18, 2019, 09:14:45 am
There are other threads for combat stress/fatigue, for example here: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,4473.0.html

Please keep this about mana.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Mana pool
Post by: Yankes on July 18, 2019, 09:58:34 pm
There are other threads for combat stress/fatigue, for example here: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,4473.0.html

Please keep this about mana.
This is more how we could reinterpreted this to have different "theme", something like Monopoly Star Wars game. Same basic mechanic but sold under different name.