OpenXcom Forum
Modding => Released Mods => XPiratez => Topic started by: clownagent on March 09, 2017, 11:00:04 am
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Why do enemy unconscious units are dying after a few turns?
They have no critical wounds and show the "zzz" symbol.
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If they have stun at 300% or more of their current HP, they start losing HP due to system shock.
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If they have stun at 300% or more of their current HP, they start losing HP due to system shock.
Oh, this mechanism I did not know.
How is this defined in the ruleset? I would like to switch it off.
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Yes, it's a new mechanism. I don't know how it's coded, but it's probably in armours.
I haven't played with this option yet, so I can't comment on it. I don't know if it's good or not. Regardless, when the first reaction to a new balancing feature is 'how do I turn it off', then I think it's not a healthy approach - unless it's a really, really BAD feature. But then it should be improved, since just turning it off looks like a straight up cheat code to me.
So what's wrong with it, and how to make it better?
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Yes, it's a new mechanism. I don't know how it's coded, but it's probably in armours.
I haven't played with this option yet, so I can't comment on it. I don't know if it's good or not. Regardless, when the first reaction to a new balancing feature is 'how do I turn it off', then I think it's not a healthy approach - unless it's a really, really BAD feature. But then it should be improved, since just turning it off looks like a straight up cheat code to me.
So what's wrong with it, and how to make it better?
Yes, it is in armors, probably with these negative recovery values.
The problem I have is the following:
I do not understand what it is good for.
I have some unconscious enemies lying around which die "seemingly" randomly. I have no possibility to check if they will die or not. What should I do to prevent this? Try to heal their stun damage and if they wake up stun and heal them again ... spiralling downward in a never ending circle of tediousness?
Maybe this feature was introduced to prevent "mass stunnings" which is ok, but than it would be better to choose another mechanism: Possibly that all stun weapons do some additional random health damage or something similar.
Anyway, thanks for the information, I will probably switch it off. Maybe other players will enjoy the feature. :D
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The only real issue with it, is communication of the status to the player. Aside from the bootypedia article there is nothing to clue the player into its occurrence within the game. And is the player gona spend TU mind probing knocked out foes? is he expected to?
That said the change does make certain weapons like the tesla coil and a handful of others much more narrow in terms of valid targets. Guess that probably the point to balance the use of stuff that is most of the time a one hit disable on weaker targets. Scroll of inqonsensuality sucks extra hard now between guaranteed friendly fire and the sheer power(200+ stun no armor with middling psi)
Though it doesn't matter much if you complete a map quickly nuff after you start over stunning.
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I asked Meridian for his new stun meter to be configurable to show this, but only for your units, naturally. Leaving critically wounded gals unconscious, in heavy smoke, for 30 turns sometimes, was stupid - you don't treat wounded like this. Hence this new rule. Minor additional reason - to drowning in an underwater mission, or suffocating in a space mission, be possible.
Enemies and civvies are subjected to this rule as well because I see no reason why should they be exempt. As minor graces, it makes the 'perfect stun mission' much harder to pull off, and puts some cushion-soft constraints on stunning civvies.
I'll refrain from judging which weapon got buffed and which nerfed by this; if lethal weapons which were used for stunning are less useful to that end, then good; if Cattle Prod and Stun Baton got some extra attractiveness, that's good too. About the Scroll, well, at that level, you will have the means to completely subdue most low- to average- threat enemy deployments within 4-6 turns so it hardly matters if they start taking 1HP damage per turn - since Scroll doesn't damage health.
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If we get a status icon for shock im good with it existing. Actual death underwater and in space if unprotected is good. Weapon adjustments happen just so long as the problems that crop up get addressed if they are truly detrimental.
Tesla coil gets kinda pigeonholed cause most units will go straight into shock on average rolls, making it only sorta safe(still does hp dmg) on things like Mercs, sectopods, and others with exceptional hp pools. Stronger psi based attacks are now unsafe capture tools. Things like manacles and rod of bliss are now questionable to even exist as a tool.
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Worth adding that if the unit is at >75% HP, the health loss cannot ever exceed 1 HP per turn, so it's basically inconsequential. IMO manacles and rod of bliss are still viable, if not used on a heavily wounded target.
On the other hand, a heavily wounded target gets constant Stun damage anyway, so use of these tools was never required against such targets.
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Worth adding that if the unit is at >75% HP, the health loss cannot ever exceed 1 HP per turn, so it's basically inconsequential. IMO manacles and rod of bliss are still viable, if not used on a heavily wounded target.
snip
Good to know that makes things alot more resonable then i first surmised. Manacles and rod may still be useful, but there is a bit of a disjoint in there advertised purpose of locking down foes for good without harm since now they easily start the clock ticking on shock.
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So... can we get a little lightning icon for shocked units instead of the zzz?
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It is only right for enemies to die from system shock. After all, they are only pathetic creatures of meat and bone.
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So... can we get a little lightning icon for shocked units instead of the zzz?
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Yes, something like this. But why friendlies only? Other indicators are universal; and I think it would lessen the general confusion regarding this mechanics.
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Yes, something like this. But why friendlies only? Other indicators are universal; and I think it would lessen the general confusion regarding this mechanics.
cos dioxine? I don't care either way...
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cos dioxine? I don't care either way...
OK, I'll talk to him.
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I thought it was about box indicators, like Fatal Wounds, not icons. And box indicators are for friendlies. About icons? Dunno, personally I see no use to them. About prized captures, I care anyway, about slaver raids - if a few die, what difference does it make? Another bonus for those who act fast. Existence of such an icon would be excessive info, I think. But if it was somehow displayed on specific medkit's screens (not Rum), it'd be fine.
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Just so long as we are allowed a simpler way to identify shock beyond mind probing every stunned unit.
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Let's not get confused with words... I mean the same as the zzz's for unconscious units and drops of blood for bleeding out units. Which are both displayed for enemies.
Let's remember that this mechanics is vital yet completely foreign to X-Com, and not easy to understand for an average player. Plus it's very hard to learn which situations most likely lead to HP loss from stun. I think hiding it from the player is an unnecessary learning curve, and it's way too anal to force the player to make wild guesses as to what is going on.
I am rather experienced with X-Com (doh) and I'd definitely want to have this indicator.
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The bleed icons are a real God send on pogroms. Rushing medics to patch up bleeding civs (and hostiles) got me some solid points...
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The "box" indicators are for live conscious units:
1. live directly visible aliens (red)
2. live indirectly visible aliens (green)
3. live wounded friends (blue) -- this is the only unfortunate exception... shows also unconscious units... probably a bad idea
4. live almost stunned friends (purple)
The "floor/corpse" indicators are for live unconscious units:
5. unconscious, on fire (flame)
6. unconscious, not on fire, wounded (blood)
7. unconscious, not on fire, not wounded (zzz)
If there is a need to create a new indicator for a live unconscious unit, which is not on fire, not wounded, but still somehow taking damage... I think it belongs between points 6 and 7 as a new type of "floor/corpse" indicator.
PS: having a "box" indicator for an unconscious unit is very confusing... every video I've seen, where the blue indicator pointed to unconscious unit, the players were totally confused and looked around cluelessly like blind rats... I don't want to make more of those
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Yes, I fully agree - it should be a corpse indicator, not an icon.
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Okay, what Meridian said makes sense. It'd mean a custom idicator, maybe a skull, for all uncoscious units who have negative Health Reg at the moment, but have no Fatal Wounds. I'm just afraid this will lead to players being overtly concerned with this mechanics... Losses in captured enemies attributed to it do not exceed 5% in my test campaign.
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Even slim loses are grating when the player is effectively not allowed to know why/when individual cases happen but is told the underling mechanic.
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Sometimes I shoot a guy, and there's no scream but he died when a mission ends. Sometimes a mission ends but a person is only bleeding yet he ends up dead and looted.
I never liked either situation because the indicators suggested something else.
Adding an in shock indicator should be optional IMO, or at least should appear after researching medicine IMO.
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Snip
Sometimes a mission ends but a person is only bleeding yet he ends up dead and looted.
Snip
Pretty sure the happens because the end of turn calculations fire one last time at mission end to ensure proper cleanup that the engine otherwise can't handle correctly.
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Does this mean, a bleeder bleeds twice at mission end?
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IMHO, box indicators for unconscious friendlies are quite useful. Sometimes, locating a Gal bleeding on the ground can be a chore on a busy map, especially if behind a building...
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Does this mean, a bleeder bleeds twice at mission end?
No, but the fact that an end turn phase occurs at mission end may cause some bleeders to die that the player might not otherwise expect assuming the mission just ends.
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Using handles I have never seen this happen. What did you hit them with that stunned them hard enough to knock them out 3 times in one blow?
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Low HP causes stun per turn on many units, including most of the gals' armors. This bleed out due to stun is likely on enemies you stunned by shooting at them instead of using a handle, or might happen with fisticuffs.
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What we are talking about is foes bleeding out from wounds at mission end, which is only partly related to system shock dealing lethal damage. They both happen at the same time(end turn phase) and are not particularly clearly communicated to the player.
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KiriKaneko was asking about the stun causing HP damage part of it though, that's where his question about doing 3x HP in stun damage comes in. The regen from armor formulas (damage from too much stun) happens at the beginning of a turn I think, so it's probably fatal wounds or burning causing death at mission end. Or one last bomb going off, that's always a fun one.
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Low HP causes stun per turn on many units, including most of the gals' armors. This bleed out due to stun is likely on enemies you stunned by shooting at them instead of using a handle, or might happen with fisticuffs.
Not to mention it seems to work from CURRENT HP so a badly wounded gal or enemy will need to be taken extra special care of.
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Indicators added, sample ruleset:
extraSprites:
# Inventory
- type: BigShockIndicator
singleImage: true
files:
0: Resources/UI/Zzz.png
# Inventory (custom for a specific starting condition)
- type: BigShockIndicatorCustom
singleImage: true
files:
0: Resources/UI/burning.png
# Map
- type: FloorShockIndicator
singleImage: true
files:
0: Resources/UI/Zzz.png
# Map (custom for a specific starting condition)
- type: FloorShockIndicatorCustom
singleImage: true
files:
0: Resources/UI/Bleed.png
startingConditions:
- type: STR_CUSTOM_SHOCK
inventoryShockIndicator: BigShockIndicatorCustom # default empty
mapShockIndicator: FloorShockIndicatorCustom # default empty
alienDeployments:
- type: STR_MEDIUM_SCOUT
startingCondition: STR_CUSTOM_SHOCK
armors:
- type: STR_NONE_UC
recovery:
health:
stunNormalized: -0.165 # -1 hp when 304% stun or more
Default sprite names are BigShockIndicator and FloorShockIndicator.
They can be overridden by starting conditions.