OpenXcom Forum
OpenXcom => Offtopic => Topic started by: Matti on December 28, 2016, 11:05:27 pm
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Just today I played through XCOM: Enemy Unknown. Now I'm looking for new (or old) challenges, and OpenXcom is on the list. But I need to know and understand why should I spend my little free time with it instead UFO: Extraterrestrials or Xenonauts or something else?
Little about my gaming history and knowledge:
I've had and played illegitimate copy of X-COM: UFO Defense on my father's 40 MHz 386SX PC when that game was still new. I enjoyed of it then, but I think user interface is bit clunky compared to some newer games. How does OpenXcom address this aside mouse wheel support? Anyway I know well what X-COM is like and I like it better than XCOM (unless I forgot nostalgia glasses on my head)
I've had UFO: Extraterrestrials for several years, but I got pissed when aliens got shots at my soldiers from outside of sight range. Just now I started the game again on easy level and aliens don't do that anymore. Otherwise game & gameplay seem to be close match to UFO Defense, though something about mouse control ticks me off. Also game doesn't visualize radar ranges (unless there is something in options menu I need to tick). All that aside, its only strong point is I already own it.
I have watched videos on YouTube about Xenonauts. I like the selection of equipment and tactical combat for aircrafts. There are cover available for troops with colour coding. This looks to be my strongest choice. Unless OpenXcom has improved selection of the equipment and has improved cover system since UFO Defense?
Bottom line: why do you play OpenXcom instead one of the aforementioned games? If you have played them all, which one do you recommend for me and why?
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Very interesting questions! To be perfectly honest, I feel kinda intimidated trying to answer it, because of how broad and difficult they are. But I'll do my best.
In my opinion, there are two top-tier tactical games about repelling an alien invasion (Jagged Alliance 2 is great too, but it's something else). These games are: the first X-Com (and by extension, OpenXCom) and UFO: Aftershock. These games are both incredibly entertaining, but also quite different, so I recommend everyone to play both of them.
Why not other titles you mentioned? Because I think they are imperfect clones of X-Com. They do have their strong points, but ultimately fall flat as games. Let me elaborate:
1) UFO: Extraterrestrials. This title was made in the darkest hour of tactical gaming, where the genre seemed effectively dead. That's the only reason this game reached any level of success, because frankly it was pretty shit-tier. It had some nice ideas, I actually liked the terrain for example, and the RTS-like air combat was engaging, but it was produced by a really small, inexperienced studio and it screams "made by amateurs!" at every opportunity. Its interface is clunky, the graphics are mostly bad, but the biggest problem is that the overall design was disappointing. It was just weak as a whole, from bad design decisions (aliens get worse with your progress, each tier of weapons was worse than the previous one except for damage etc.) to the snorefest finale.
Now, there is a huge mod for this game called UNIMOD which make it a much more enjoyable experience, with many fixes, additions, better balance, etc. But it didn't address the biggest problems in the game. It made it a good gaming experience, but not as good as X-Com.
2) Xenonauts. This game was also quite budgetary, but much more professional than Extraterrestrials and it looked very nice. But the core mechanic was actually the worst of all titles discussed here. All the good points were parroted from X-Com, and everything else was ultimately as nice as pulling teeth - the suppression mechanics, stupid armours, never-ending chases after teleporting enemies, unsatisfactory modding engine and so on. They clearly lacked a talented lead designer who would eliminate core problems with the game. I never forced myself to finish it. It has a really nice air combat model though which I enjoyed a lot.
Now, let's move to the X-Com proper. Why am I saying it is better than the other two? Because it was actually written by a great designer. It is perfectly balanced, has many ingenious mechanics (for example how reaction fire works - without any random element but very naturally), delivers exactly what the player wants, avoids tedium when possible, and so on. as a player, you just feel that you are in the right hands, and it's not nostalgia glasses - you are actually being catered to, without being belittled by the game. It is simply very polished, a high quality product. This is why I keep playing this game after so many years and so many other games - it's just the most fun.
Now, I understand your reservations about details like weapon selection. but the beautiful thing about OpenXCom is the modding community. I doubt many veterans here play exclusively vanilla X-Com; we've done it to death over the last two decades. But there are several huge mods which add and rebalance weapons, include new mechanics, polish the interface and so on. If that's what you're interested in, then OpenXCom is even more recommendable for you.
I'm not sure if this post was explanatory enough, but don't hesitate to ask more questions if necessary.
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Play the UFO:AI (https://ufoai.org). This game is the best.
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So I dug out my hard copy of ufo aftershock... I remember the class system being cool. The graphics though... openxcom modern resolution settings are making a big difference I think. Aftershock was a nice flash, I'll put some hours into it.
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Now, I understand your reservations about details like weapon selection. but the beautiful thing about OpenXCom is the modding community. I doubt many veterans here play exclusively vanilla X-Com; we've done it to death over the last two decades. But there are several huge mods which add and rebalance weapons, include new mechanics, polish the interface and so on. If that's what you're interested in, then OpenXCom is even more recommendable for you.
When you wrote about Xenonauts, did you mean vanilla game or community edition? What mods do you use for OpenXcom and what do you recommend? Also I have interest for X-PirateZ for the new storyline.
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So I dug out my hard copy of ufo aftershock... I remember the class system being cool. The graphics though... openxcom modern resolution settings are making a big difference I think. Aftershock was a nice flash, I'll put some hours into it.
ufo aftershock is unbelievable game, but it is not a turn-based like the X-Com. And, unfortunately, aftershock is bugged a lot, but really unbelievable game.
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Play the UFO:AI (https://ufoai.org). This game is the best.
Ah yes, it's impressive work, but I could never really get into it because it was in perpetual alpha state, with no real balance and many features missing. (Maybe it got better.) But my biggest gripe was completely indestructible terrain; this may seem like a detail, but it's actually quite fundamental.
In fact, X-Com is the only game with full, free terrain destruction (with the exception of player crafts, but this can be modded easily).
When you wrote about Xenonauts, did you mean vanilla game or community edition?
I don't really know the difference, but I doubt these problems with Xenonauts can be resolved easily.
What mods do you use for OpenXcom and what do you recommend? Also I have interest for X-PirateZ for the new storyline.
Piratez is probably the biggest mod, and certainly the most developed total conversion, and it certainly is worth playing. Other playable, but less developed total conversion mods are From the Apocalypse and Warhammer 40k mod. But if you want to play actual X-Com but expanded, there are mods like: Area 51, Hardmode Expansion, or my Final Mod Pack (and its continuator X-Com Files, in progress). Xeno Operations is very impressive too, but kinda abandoned and buggy. And I probably missed to mention something important. :)
ufo aftershock is unbelievable game, but it is not a turn-based like the X-Com. And, unfortunately, aftershock is bugged a lot, but really unbelievable game.
I recommend playing with ACM Mod by Okim, it really makes the game richer.
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Matti: Like Solarius, your request is so for understanding on what makes OpenXcom so good is fundamentally so broad that its hard to quantify it easily, but I thought I'd weigh in here on it a bit.
OpenXcom is like a huge breath of life into an already classic and excellent game. In my opinion there are two fundamental improvements that make it "THE" X-Com Game.
In terms of playability, things like keyboard shortcuts, and mod wheel support are things that modern gamers expect and trying to accustom themselves to mouse-only play (which was revolutionary at its time) makes the classic in DosBox feel clunky and a bit stale. Add in the fact that all of the keyboard shortcuts are configurable and that makes it so much better. Vast improvements in the tedium of much of the grindiness of inventory management and equipping of troops has been removed. (This alone ruined me for going back to play Apocalypse which is another classic). Auto-equip will give all your troops something, but then add in the ability to copy inventor templates and paste them and you've made great strides. Branches like OpenXcom Extended (OXCE) and OpenXcom Extended Plus (OXCE+) have added even more interface improvements allow multiple inventory templates, craft autopatrol, unit facing indicators, better vision models, etc. The extent that OXCE+ has improved even base vanilla OXC for the player is truly staggering.
Modability is the second aspect where OpenXcom really shines. The mega-mods like X-Piratez and FMP and the others that Solarius mentioned are examples of how far you can implement whatever you imagine and strides continue to be made to allow more and more options for mod creators. The fact that the files are pretty much in plain English (YAML) makes modding fairy easy to begin. Want to add an incendiary clip for the Assault Rifle? Just mod it in. Want to fix the vanilla issue of about twenty items using the grey blob "grenade" hand object to actually show a good handob representation for each? Just download and activate the "Improved Handobs Mod" or make your own. So many examples of these are terrific. Scout drones, combat knife, attack dogs, dart rifles, improved terrain and maps, tons of great new content. Its here that the game continues to breath new life. I personally have been immersed in XPirateZ for the last couple years and the constant improvements in that mod alone and the replayability have meant hundreds of hours of enjoyment.
How does this game stack up against the modern descendents (XCOM EU 2012, EW, XCOM 2)? The game is better at the strategic simulation with multiple bases, and a better economic system. On the tactical side, its larger squad sizes and enemy spawns make it less of the "board game" and a more fluid battle. OpenXcom is definitely not the best tactical turn based game, even JA2 does it better, but its still a great game. XCOM2 with its procedurally generated maps gets closer to the original, and the small gritty organization vibe that it carries is echoed in OXC mods like PirateZ or X-Com Files.
All in all, if you are interested in the classic xcom and are ready for a much better playing experience, I'd highly recommend OpenXcom with a recent nightly. The hours of enjoyment you will get from it make it a ridiculous value for the tiny cost.
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It is hard to make a choice between good games. So I got them all from Steam! X-COM: Complete Pack and Xenonauts for total 12,18€!!! Not a bad deal for 6 games :D
I'm gonna start with Xenonauts, downloading now. While I wait for it, I'll play one more turn of Sid Meier's Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword, which I have reinforced with Caveman2Cosmos mod. If you've got Civ4:BtS, look it up (if you haven't by now)
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גן ילדים
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גן ילדים
Huh, what? ???
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Huh, what? ???
My mad Google skllz told me it's in Hebrew :)
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I'm not sure if this post was explanatory enough, but don't hesitate to ask more questions if necessary.
This is said elsewhere on the Internet (https://steamcommunity.com/app/223830/discussions/0/154644928861530908/)
I mostly play Xeno over the original X-COM because of the UI improvements. I know OpenXCOM is a thing, but I've had mixed results getting it configured to work properly. Xenonauts just works.
Does that make any sense to you? Also I'm gonna copy-paste part of your post over there.
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Yes, both make perfect sense.
Just play both and stop wasting people's time with these questions... judging by your childish and totally off-topic reaction: "if you've got Civ4:BtS, look it up (if you haven't by now)", you're not even interested in the answers...
People like Solarius and Ivan invested at least 20 minutes of their time to answer your questions and your response is less than adequate, to say it politely.
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Now you got me worked up on Xenonauts... I've been thinking about buying it for a long time, but the lack of destructible environment put me off. If the only thing going for it is the more modern graphics and sophisticated dogfight, I'll pass. Some more thoughts?
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Hi people.
I am a huge X-Com fan who played original X-Com at Amiga-500.. you can imagine how old i am on this genre and specifically in this game.
Sadly, you don't have any info about Xenonauts development and you only talk about the default game, years ago. It's like comparing the default X-Com to openxcom.. You talk about that Xenonauts did not get any patch or mod for years.
Xenonauts got a modding/fixing community edition as XCE, some kind of openXcom for Xenonauts. Addition to softcoding and fixing, XCE adds many different aspects to the game modding like special unit spawing and random research changes. OpenXcom created for modding specially so it's normal to have more modding aspects then Xenonauts Community Edition.
With the support of XCE, Xenonauts got a huge mod named X-Division which nearly creates new game rather then a mod. The mod is about 5 GB for now and a 3.5 GB expansion is at development. This mod changed the game totally to make it an ultimate X-Com game with all the new aspects XCE created.
If you are interested:
Mod forum topic: https://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/index.php?/topic/13414-165xce-v0342-x-division-099-beta/&page=1
Forum Steam page: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=741289983&searchtext=
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCtS8rPsZAKtG5e-gn5n_pQ
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Thanks for sharing this mate, it's quite interesting.
BTW is it possible to make separate handobs for weapons now? Or do you still need to do every possible weapon/armour combination, all full frames? :D
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Now you got me worked up on Xenonauts... I've been thinking about buying it for a long time, but the lack of destructible environment put me off. If the only thing going for it is the more modern graphics and sophisticated dogfight, I'll pass. Some more thoughts?
I have read the manuals and wiki. Xenonauts has similar cover system as in the XCOM (the new one). When XCOM has shield/half-shield for cover quality, Xenonauts has colours. Doors can be opened from the side. Characters (on all sides) can be suppressed with enough dakka (if it hits close) and/or flashbangs, and suppressed characters start their turn with less TU. Is anything of this in OpenXcom?
Community Edition is heavily modded version of the game, it is available on Steam, and even game devs recommend it (or so I've been told). Now back to the manual...
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Thanks for sharing this mate, it's quite interesting.
BTW is it possible to make separate handobs for weapons now? Or do you still need to do every possible weapon/armour combination, all full frames? :D
This is an engine issue. Game works with direct sprites as you described. Most of the problem and bugs comes with the engine sadly. As i am the 3D animator of the X-Division mod, i am creating the unit sprites by myself. Xenonauts shines with it's graphics, it has the best X-Com atmosphere with it's art style. For unit sprites, when you play the game with a HD resolution, the battlefield became large scale and units became more little. So you can see who got rifle and who got a HMG or shotgun, but not detailed way.. so any sprite with shotgun could be used for any shotgun u created..
Xenonauts is not a bug-free game, but even with a huge mod with some complex moding, you can play it without any problem from beginning to the end. But as i said before, the default game had problems with it's engine so this limited the devs so badly. But the code is open to the public for years and some great coders worked on the game with devs to fix as much as they can. Now the game got a community addition with nice mods comes with it, adding so much things without harming the default game feeling. And if you want a complicated experience, there is X-Division..
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Nice reading.
I think I'll give Xenonauts a second chance now.
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drages, I just got through GameManual.pdf that comes with the game from Steam. Does Community Edition make significant changes to what is written in the manual? What about X-Division?
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I have read the manuals and wiki. Xenonauts has similar cover system as in the XCOM (the new one). When XCOM has shield/half-shield for cover quality, Xenonauts has colours. Doors can be opened from the side. Characters (on all sides) can be suppressed with enough dakka (if it hits close) and/or flashbangs, and suppressed characters start their turn with less TU. Is anything of this in OpenXcom?
1. yes, you can open doors from sides in OpenXcom too
2. yes, there are ways how to drain TUs from units on both sides in OpenXcom Extended... with enough imagination you can mod a weapon that does what you want (e.g. a flashbang)
3. OpenXcom of course has cover as well... it has no indicator of cover "quality"... but it could be added if anyone was interested... for me personally, it's a quite useless indicator... even a child can see what is full cover, partial cover or no cover
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Game manual got nothing about XCE. You can find every info about XCE and X-Division at https://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/. I can't explain tons of things already explained somewhere else.
Xenonauts systems are well as suppression, moral, covers and more. The problem is, you need to know exactly how they work. The key thing here, Xenonauts did not used tons of things it has at it's code. I mean there is damage types and resistances at the game code, but the default game did not use them. You can create many things with your imagination and right coding. There is very few information about tricky modding of this game and many codes are hidden/never used. I came late to xenonauts community when it was already late and many big modders left the game but after more then 1 year work and communication with XCE coders, my mod team and i know nearly anything about this game coding.
There is some unique things openxcom got, like different ammunition for same weapons. Sadly, xenonauts ammo code is beyond repair (or need a crazy dedicated coder).
But there are things that openxcom never have like a great, complicated and tactical airgame and A HD graphical approach with X-Com atmosphere. Xenonauts can have much more maybe but sadly we are very few people left. If we had people, as you have here, Xenonauts could be a new X-Com.. but the beginning did not take enough attention.
Xenonauts made a new generation X-Com clone but with limited power on a bad engine so i think it deserve the respect as same as openxcom. Even the story of the development of the xenonauts is a very sad one with many drawbacks in it. Now they are doing the 2. game with much dedicated and pro vision. But as X-Division mod team, we want this mod as a new game. If you check the additions and image/videos, you will see something totally different. Maybe even we can find some people here wanna help us too.. because this community is the best xcom modders..
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If the Xenonauts battlescape wasn't fundamentally broken, i think it might be a fun game - but at its core, it's fundamentally flawed. Ignoring all the bugs - and I'm not going to get into XCE - the game, as delivered, is broken.
I respect that you enjoy the game, but Xenonauts is only comparably to X-Com in that it's isometric and uses time units - where, at its core, it's a 2D version of NuCom.
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If the Xenonauts battlescape wasn't fundamentally broken, i think it might be a fun game - but at its core, it's fundamentally flawed. Ignoring all the bugs - and I'm not going to get into XCE - the game, as delivered, is broken.
I respect that you enjoy the game, but Xenonauts is only comparably to X-Com in that it's isometric and uses time units - where, at its core, it's a 2D version of NuCom.
I can see your hate and anger against xenonaut. I ddon'tknow why. Just saying broken is not so clear.
I am not only a player, i am a modder for xxenonauts for 2 years. I ddon't know when u played that broken game last time but you are wrong about it.
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Got Xenonauts on sale, played for an hour. Appealing aesthetically. Am i being blind and/or dumb or there is no way to cycle through your units and marking the last unit as "checked" (like, don't cycle back to that unit again)?
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I played Xenonauts Community Edition (without Division-X or other downloaded mods) last night for 2 hours or so, normal difficulty. I shot down first scout UFO near Tel Aviv. Dropship had landed on a farm field. Fields were filled with hay bales of different sizes and shapes (at least 2 different machines to make them ???). There were some fences and equipment too. At center of the map was a house, surrounded by wooden walls, and farmer with a shotgun. That's nice. Well done map which leaves little for nitpicking. Except for one thing: some of the house's walls are invisible to player. Where's the door? Where are windows? Those are there, but I couldn't see them. If it happens again... Hey, I can load a save! Here we go. As you can see, movement path goes around the invisible wall and destination point is presumably by the window. Door we can see is NOT the front door but a door inside the house. Whatever is at front of that door is blocked by the invisible wall. What the Hell?
I had one casualty there. It was my own damn fault: I had spread my xenonauts all over the map and some were wandering alone without back up. And it had to be one of the lone 'nauts who found a sebillian with plasma rifle. He got shot, wounded, suppressed, and panicked. Of course I rushed other xenonauts to help, but too late: sebillians are tough cookies and less than handful of rifle shots didn't bring him down in time. Now when I think back, I could maybe have saved panicking soldier with a smoke grenade. UFO itself had one occupant. He opened the door, shot couple times (presumably with plasma pistol), then closed the door. I placed my sniper and machine gunner for overwatch the door, but they didn't do reaction fire. Manual explains the reason. When reaction fire check is made, game makes comparison of TU and RFL values of the units AND their equipped weapons. Weapons have Reaction Modifier, which dictates how well that weapon is suited for reaction fire. Pistol and shotgun are good for that, sniper rifle and machine gun are poor, assault rifle is average, and rocket launcher doesn't do reaction fire at all. Therefore gunslinger is likely to draw & shoot faster than sniper and machine gunner, and take cover before retaliation fire ensues. Therefore ideal door opener is a (wo)man with high TU and RFL, and a shotgun. Waittaminnit! Shotgun? Isn't sub-machine gun used for that role? Manual also says unit can be suppressed by shooting near of it, even though shots don't penetrate possible cover (like a wall or a door). I utterly forgot that when playing the game and machine gun didn't fire a shot.
Some other problems and points of interests I have noticed this far:
Picture of the F-17 in the game looks way off (compare to this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-17))
Much of the salvaged & looted equipment are automatically sold off (good bye plasma rifles)
Selling the produced items doesn't make a profit (manual explains it as game balance measure)
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This is not a place for game bugs. This picture is a known bug came with final XCE mods. So if you disable/enable some mods, it gets fixed. The game auto sells the equipment you won't need.
You are a bit weird, Matte..
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I can see your hate and anger against xenonaut. I ddon'tknow why. Just saying broken is not so clear.
I am not only a player, i am a modder for xxenonauts for 2 years. I ddon't know when u played that broken game last time but you are wrong about it.
Played about 120 hours of it last November - was still broken then.
Here's a short list:
* Enemies outside of FoW didn't respact terrain obstacles.
* SO. MANY. MAP. BUGS. - That's the downside of an engine that isn't actually 3D, but 2D with dice-rolls.
* Enemies changed AI routines based on player unit proximity, regardless of whether or not player unit was ever spotted.
* Enemies had access to too much information:
* AI is aware of player unit FoV regardless of whether player units have ever been spotted.
* AI is aware of player unit reaction ability, often walking past units it knows can't react to shoot someone outside of its visible range.
* Everything related to enemy PSI - especially Dread. Dread might be the worst game design decision I have ever come across in my near 40 years of gaming.
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This is not a place for game bugs.
Still it could be point of interest to those reading this topic.
This picture is a known bug came with final XCE mods. So if you disable/enable some mods, it gets fixed.
Found it and enabled it.
The game auto sells the equipment you won't need.
So I don't need plasma weapons? Or those just can't be used until they are researched?
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to cycle through your units and marking the last unit as "checked" (like, don't cycle back to that unit again)?
it's shift + tab
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it's shift + tab
Nope! That opens up Steam's interface.
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About Xenonauts
* Enemies had access to too much information:
* AI is aware of player unit FoV regardless of whether player units have ever been spotted.
* AI is aware of player unit reaction ability, often walking past units it knows can't react to shoot someone outside of its visible range.
This strongly implies enemy would avoid walking into opportunity reaction fire. It doesn't: he could have took back door out of the building, instead he walked by the window and got shot & killed. Number of other cases, like one today where 2 enemies got killed by opportunity fire on same turn (1 by machine gun's dakka). I play Xenonauts Community Edition on normal difficulty.
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Why is OpenXcom the best, that easy, as unlike all the remakes, OpenXcom still captures has the right mix of Fear and Terror whilst still being fun. Recently Grabbed Xcom2 on my PS4, played it twice and have already moved on, OpenXcom brings me back to the original every few years and having all the extra little add-ons just makes it even more enjoyable :)
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having all the extra little add-ons just makes it even more enjoyable :)
Which ones do you use? Which ones do you enjoy?
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Its the original X-COM modernized with mod support.
No really, thread over, go away.