OpenXcom Forum
OpenXcom => Open Feedback => Topic started by: chaosshade on September 13, 2016, 10:33:06 am
-
So in working on my own mod, I was left with a "problem" in wondering if I should leave the Heavy Cannon in the game or remove it entirely. I know the Heavy Cannon has its place, especially in Superhuman mode because it can carry more ammunition than the Rocket Launcher, but it's nowhere near the "workhorse" that the Gas Cannon is in TFTD.
-
In vanilla? Pretty often, in early game.
Many people prefer the Auto-Cannon for its auto fire. I used to think so too, but grew out of it; the auto fire is pretty situational, for example with IN ammo. Heavy Cannon is stronger, more accurate and quite fast.
I'm not doing the poll right now, because the answers aren't logically linked to the question. "How often" doesn't mean "at which part of game", so I'm not even sure what you're asking about.
-
Early on, I use:
- 60% rifles
- 25% heavy cannon + HE ammo
- 10% rocket launcher
- 5% heavy explosives
-
Autocannon instead of rifle
-
I use the heavy cannon all the time - I only use the autocannon with IN ammo if I'm expecting early game Cyberdiscs.
-
I prefer Rocket Launcher and or Auto canons....
-
With a proper mod and ufo extender accuracy, I find Heavy Cannons to be quite useful in the early game. Aim at the floor in front of an alien to create a descending shot or at a wall nearby and you will be very likely to create an explosion near enough to kill it, much better than missing by a hair's width with direct fire. It also kills reapers in 1-2 shots for those floater terrors. Without extender accuracy, the auto-cannon is probably better, but with it and a reasonable tweak (making the heavy cannon more accurate at range and the auto-cannon focus more on the auto-fire), they can both be very useful.
Obviously, by the time you have laser weapons, it becomes less useful, and is totally irrelevant when you get plasma. So the question is confusing, as Solarius said. How often do I use Heavy Cannons? A lot in the early game, a little mid game, not at all end game. Do I value it as a weapon in the game? Certainly.
-
In vanilla? Pretty often, in early game.
Many people prefer the Auto-Cannon for its auto fire. I used to think so too, but grew out of it; the auto fire is pretty situational, for example with IN ammo. Heavy Cannon is stronger, more accurate and quite fast.
I'm not doing the poll right now, because the answers aren't logically linked to the question. "How often" doesn't mean "at which part of game", so I'm not even sure what you're asking about.
You are correct, Solarius, my poll options are not really all that relevant to the question. I wasn't sure how to phrase it, but the posts alone tell me that, if I feel so inclined, I can safely remove the Heavy Cannon from my mod and almost no one will miss it.
-
But.. having two heavy weapons enables you to diversify the arsenal by creating two different weapons for two different roles. I struggle to see how that's a bad thing, unless you are trying for a minimalist approach?
-
But.. having two heavy weapons enables you to diversify the arsenal by creating two different weapons for two different roles. I struggle to see how that's a bad thing, unless you are trying for a minimalist approach?
I actually have a wide selection of heavy weapons in my mod and, just as a hint for the next update, it's going to expand further. As of now (the most up-to-date version of it) the Heavy Cannon has been removed in favour of a Grenade Launcher. I don't really agree with that change so I'm looking at ways to expand things. It mainly means I just have to add some extra code and a new set of sprites.
-
I use the heavy cannon all the time - I only use the autocannon with IN ammo if I'm expecting early game Cyberdiscs.
Whoa. Discs are weak against incendiary ammo? 0_0
Newbie here.
-
Whoa. Discs are weak against incendiary ammo? 0_0
Newbie here.
Even veterans don't necessarily know this, because incendiary damage isn't very widespread in vanilla, and it gets obsoleted by lasers very quickly. I only learned about it myself when things like flamers arrived on scene.
-
Whoa. Discs are weak against incendiary ammo? 0_0
Newbie here.
IN ammo is special. If it hits it does 5-10 damage regardless of where it comes from + damage over time. Most 4 tile units are weak to incendiary - due to the nature of being 4 tiles and taking 4 times as much damage. Discs just have extra resistance to explosives, so the meager 5-10 (20-40) damage x 3 (60-120! autoshot) of an IN round wins out over a grenades or even heavy rocket.
When taking out single tile units without autoshot, IN loses much of its glamour. I never use IN rockets or heavy cannon unless I need light. Even then, I'm more likely to use flares.
-
Thanks for the info guys. Really eye opening!
-
I use heavy HE rockets at the start until I get lasers, and then my initial troops still stick with rockets.
Love it that I can move rookies to the front lines, especially the weak psychic ones.
-
I don't use it much in vanilla as balancing makes it a bit cumbersome to saddle an unfortunate unit with. However when modded to function better, or with more utility I tend to have at least one unit use it until it's impractical compared to other weapons.
-
The HC becomes really effective when your soldiers approach 100+ Firing and can reliably Snap with its HE ammo or snipe with AP. However in vanilla, by that time you have Plasmas & Blasters, which completely obsolete the HC.
-
EDIT:
So in working on my own mod, I was left with a "problem" in wondering if I should leave the Heavy Cannon in the game or remove it entirely. I know the Heavy Cannon has its place, especially in Superhuman mode because it can carry more ammunition than the Rocket Launcher, but it's nowhere near the "workhorse" that the Gas Cannon is in TFTD.
My suggestion is give the Heavy Cannon the same stats as the Gas Cannon for your mod. Maybe another +5 damage or so.
But get rid of the Auto Cannon, or recycle the graphics to make it a Gatling Laser (oooohhhh what an idea, and it looks like it could fit the part too).
===
In both UFO/TFTD I use the cannon almost exclusively for killing aliens, along with the tank/coelecanth.
I have 3-4 heavy weapons guys, and if they cant heft it I make them carry it until they get the strength exp. One of them will carry a rocket launcher/torpedo with the heavy ammo.
Everybody else is a spotter, rifles and jet harpoons are backup weapons. They throw grenades, everybody gets 2 (pulsers/alien grenades) even in late game. Alien grenades get researched before direct energy weapons do, the research is faster and I can build them if I run out.
Vanilla item limits and tediously filling the shoulder slots are the only thing that would limit me using grenades. Soldiers use rifles/lasers inside buildings and ships and almost always because I can autofire.
If I have a soldier with bad accuracy he becomes a grenader with a pistol. Gets 6 grenades. Buuttt... if he's got the strength he just might get a Cannon because at medium/short range he can still snap shot wildly and hit the alien. I might keep him just out of the blast radius, but otherwise his bad accuracy makes him expendible.
When I get Lasers the heavy weapons guys get a Laser Pistol. Somebody usually also carries some Cannon/AP rounds, so the heavy weapons dudes dont have to. That way the capability to fire the thing up close is available, but as of Mid-Game they dont carry the AP ammo anymore only the HE ammo exclusively.
The problem with the Autocannon is it just doesnt do enough damage. With AP ammo its just fine for storming a ufo or challenging tougher aliens like gill men/snakes but its even heavier than the cannon so thats a problem. Explosive ammo will usually kill sectoids on a near miss but its not reliable on floaters, and autoshot makes it a bigger hazard for any soldiers or civilians who might be anywhere near that area. Id rather use AP ammo with the thing honestly.
(in TFTD the hydro jet had a game bug where all the damage it does is doubled though the blast radius is still small, which is really interesting in that it can blow a hole in the angled sides of an alien sub, but I dont consider this to be the way it was intended to work so I generally refrain from cheating this way)
Snipers? If anybody ends up with 70+ Firing Accuracy I give them the Rocket Launcher. They sit near the transport or up on a perch somewhere so any aliens I sight can be hit from across the map.
===
Incendiaries:
I almost never use Flares or Incendiary, it takes too much time and the fires burn out too quickly. Instead I send the Tank to get as close as I can, and hope it doesn't provoke reaction fire. This makes the really dark night missions a challenge, you should try it.
I cheat on night missions by waiting until the transport would intercept them at dawn. For terror missions I cycle fighters going to them to keep them from de-spawning because "there is always a craft en-route".
It doesnt matter whats going on, it can wait until the morning.
===
Bottom Line:
I use Heavy Cannon/Gas Cannon until the approach of Late Game. The only weapon that adequately replaces it is the Blaster or DPL.
And on TFTD terror missions it ups the ante that I cant use the DPL... the aliens being fought are about impervious to the gas cannon... and they're difficult to adequately take out with the aliens' own weapons (I need to be able to have 2 Guys open fire on the same target at the Same Time).
So that makes the game harder than UFO Defense by a long shot.
Stun Launchers:
They do not replace the Cannon because they dont have lethal ordinance, I almost always wanna kill aliens not capture them. Only capture aliens for access to techs and plot techs... deep one, calcinite, leaders and commanders.
I even use my medi-kits to revive them so I can direct kill them, or I waste a grenade/pulser to finish the job. The usual routine is I have a guy pick up a stunned alien, carry him over some ways and toss him on the ground, then somebody pings him with a grenade/pulser. That way his loot doesnt get blown up. Tentaculats frequently get stunned rather than die so pinging them with a pulser is standard procedure until my soldiers hear that satsfying squish sound, but theh have no equip so i dont bother picking them up (!!!)
If I need to capture something I might bring 1 Stun Launcher and I leave the extra ammo back at the transport. Aliens usually carry alot of it themselves so ill just scavenge theirs if I run out of stun ammo to capture the commander or whatever.
The Gas Cannon is useful even on the alien base and synomium raids because itll kill Hallucinoids pretty quick and they cant be hit with a grenade when theyre swimming. Also these maps still have Aquatoids/Sectoids and it doesnt matter if the little guy has a Blaster in his hands, 40 or 50 explosive damage landing near him still puts him down. I dont have to hit him, only the wall behind him.
If anything I wish the Tank/Rocket and Coelecanth/Torpedo actually fired from a belt of explosive ammunition like the Heavy Cannon does. Maybe like 16 round capacity because then it still does the same job I usually need it to but I dont care if I miss 3 or 4 times.
Maybe more damage like 70 HE because it uses smaller rockets or larger gun grenades (the 43mm GM-94 thermobaric ammunition is a good candidate for ufopaedia explanation).
In UFO I might make laser tanks but they die too easily for me to mass produce them and the regular tank/cannon I buy can do the same job on most of the starter aliens.