OpenXcom Forum
Modding => Released Mods => XPiratez => Topic started by: rezaf on August 20, 2016, 11:30:40 am
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Well, what the title says. I never thought it possible ... but yeah, it's April 2603 and I've got nothing left to research.
If I get lucky in my loot, I can still do the occasional decrypted data disc, but that's about all that's left.
Captured enemies, Gun Almanachs, Government Papers ... all appearently exhausted.
I've got some plasma (and a few other) weapons left unresearched, but they spawn no projects (yet).
I dunno if I broke something on the geoscape somehow, but everything is eerily quiet. Well, not really, there's lots of traffic, but it's always the same types.
The church keeps doing sway government missions in south america, but none of the governments there are paying protection money anyway, the last dropped out half a year ago.
They also do the occasional base supply, since they have two bases left there (I kept them around to have something to fall back on in case of a bad month - but my last three months were ~10000 scorewise).
The guild (I think) is doing survey missions in australasia and very rarely, the star gods do some peacekeeping mission - even capturing new star gods spawns no research projects though.
Then there's the occasional civilian mission (disregarding that I already researched the stop targetting civilian traffic thing) ... and that's about it.
On the event side, the most common left is Warehouse Wars, very unfrequently there's a mutant pogrom, the last were of star gods and mercenaries. Managed to win both, but no new research.
Am I supposed to capture some specific type of enemy? Especially with the star gods, this is extremely difficult, since this mod lacks potent stun - I have a few small launchers, but can't research them nor build additional ammo. And stun batons, stasis grenades and cattleprods do jack shit in most cases.
What am I to do?
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Am I supposed to capture some specific type of enemy? Especially with the star gods, this is extremely difficult, since this mod lacks potent stun
You are so very wrong. You've just got no access to it, or overlooked it. But yes - captures are the key to unlocking new stuff. Especially the difficult ones.
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There are technologies which unlock tech tiers which unlock a new slew of research projects for you to progress through. If I were to hazard a guess, you have researched Back to School, but can't research School Graduation, which unlocks the new tech, as you lack Advanced Chemistry, and you need Toxigun for that, but they don't seem to ever appear.
You can also get info on Toxigun from pest control managers, decrypted data disks, ghouls, or guild engineers. Getting it from ghouls would be the easiest if they ever appear, although they are really annoying to capture alive. Pest control managers never appear, data disks have a ton of other info you will unlock first, and so do guild engineers, who also are the best slaves in the game you can get and you should not waste the for research.
There should probably be an easier way to get that research. In my own game which has been continuing for 2 years I've researched literally every prerequisite for School Graduation besides Toxigun. Ghouls and Pest Control Managers simply never appeared for me.
If that is not where you are stuck, check the tech tree for technologies you need to unlock further tech trees there: https://techtreeviewer.byethost9.com/ Back to School > School Graduation > Higher Studies
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You are so very wrong. You've just got no access to it, or overlooked it. But yes - captures are the key to unlocking new stuff. Especially the difficult ones.
Well, at THIS point I am right. Thing is, I just find it strange that there are so many things you have lying around for ages before you can research them. I captured a small launcher in one of my first missions, back when I was still sporting muskets and whatnot. I haven't been able to research it for years now - that's a bit weird and confusing, don't you agree?
Anyway, right now I lack the means to easily capture beefy enemies. What do you suggest I do?
There are technologies which unlock tech tiers which unlock a new slew of research projects for you to progress through. If I were to hazard a guess, you have researched Back to School, but can't research School Graduation, which unlocks the new tech, as you lack Advanced Chemistry, and you need Toxigun for that, but they don't seem to ever appear.
I can't find School Graduation, so it seems you hazard-guessed right. I do hovever have Toxigun researched.
I think I lack Heavy Machinery Training, for which I, in turn, lack Power Armor Parts. I just never found any. That isn't even capture related, right?
Thanks!
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Anyway, right now I lack the means to easily capture beefy enemies. What do you suggest I do?
If you have Plate Mail with shield, just use that.
If not, Cattle Prod will do as well... maybe with a little help of Flasks o'Acid.
If not, carry Vodka on every soldier and just stabilize enemies stunned by pure chance (this happens quite often, in 3 years you should have had hundreds of such cases) so they don't bleed to death.
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Power Armor parts are pretty easy to find. You can either get them as drops from dead or strip them from living enemies that you rob or enslave which look like they are wearing a powersuit. Like Marsec Bodyguards which wear that Power Armor from original X-COM which makes them look hilarious.
Anyway if you want to capture enemies without reducing their Armor, I recommend Hammers. It is somewhat dangerous, but if you can get a single hit in, heavily armored enemies usually immediately drop, and more often still alive than not.
I'm not sure if you get power armor parts from dead enemies, or if it depends on you clearing the map, or if they are actually hidden in the ships somewhere, but if you capture one alive and rob or enslave him, you'll get some 100%. Only problem - you'll have to capture two enemies because you have to interrogate one first to enslave or rob them!
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Well, that's at least a lead.
None of the enemies I actually researched allow me to rob power armor parts, it's all personal armor parts.
So how do I find a Marsec Bodyguard?
I listed all mission types I get in the OP.
Btw., why is it that nobody but the church builds new bases? That normal?
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I'm not sure if you get power armor parts from dead enemies
Yes you can, though I think not as many.
So how do I find a Marsec Bodyguard?
Pogroms, gunships, bases.
Btw., why is it that nobody but the church builds new bases? That normal?
Nothing extraordinary.
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In my game, nobody but mercs builds bases. Farming supply ship ain't a breeze, even with a specialized laser/plasma/chem crew.
Every power unit you kill gives you one power armor part. You also get only one from enslaving enemies (I think it should be more, they're wearing the thing and it's mostly intact!). You're lucky that you don't have to capture anything in power armor yet.
For capturing beefy enemies, load up on chem ammo for shotgun type weapons. Shoot at a given side of the unit a couple times and you will dissolve the armor. (The gung-ho way is to autoshot, the careful way is to snap shot and use a mind probe to make sure you don't kill the target). Once armor is down to manageable levels (40?), move in with your favourite melee stun. Hell, I think it's even possible to stun stuff with knuckles and a maxed out gal (or at worst with only a little chem tebderizing).
This mod has plenty of very strong stun weapons, and plenty of more than decent alternatives for the crafty. The trick is stunning enemies immune to stun damage.. but there are tools for that too.
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Hi rezaf! I'm in the same situation that you are, just a bit further ahead. I ran out of techs near the end of year two, and I'm gated behind Academy Espers, as I've only gotten lower level missions, and the big vips: Guildmaster, Provost, etc. I have a Guild base nearby and I need to raid it a few times to get the Guildmasters that I need, but with the Esper and others, I'm out of luck.
The main challenge that we are facing is that mission generation is strictly Randomly Generated. We end up waiting years for the right factions at the right levels to appear to give us those critical technological unlocks. And that is just an unfortunate part of the game engine. There is no adaptive difficulty level, nor adaptive mission generation which would allow for the needed factions to be spawned in convenient orders for the players.
The average game length because of this is 5-6 years in game iirc.
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Yup, when you encounter a faction, you need to milk them of all you can get out of them.
I met reticulans and thought I got everything, but I am missing one autopsy (mechtoid; I even captured and interrogated one bugger), now I can't research whichever gate tech I'm missing (higher studies? Grad school? Can't remember) and I'm paying 36 brainerz to do nothing...
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Hi rezaf! I'm in the same situation that you are, just a bit further ahead. I ran out of techs near the end of year two, and I'm gated behind Academy Espers, as I've only gotten lower level missions, and the big vips: Guildmaster, Provost, etc. I have a Guild base nearby and I need to raid it a few times to get the Guildmasters that I need, but with the Esper and others, I'm out of luck.
The main challenge that we are facing is that mission generation is strictly Randomly Generated. We end up waiting years for the right factions at the right levels to appear to give us those critical technological unlocks. And that is just an unfortunate part of the game engine. There is no adaptive difficulty level, nor adaptive mission generation which would allow for the needed factions to be spawned in convenient orders for the players.
The average game length because of this is 5-6 years in game iirc.
There's always a way to make it easier. The "Stop targetting Civillian traffic" research was a good addition in this regard. It might be possible to add another research like that, one that makes Scouts, Runabouts, and other small ships spawn less so you can spend more time in combat with superior ships. But that might be a tad masochistic.
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I don't think that's possible exactly as you say. Enemy missions have a set selection of ships to fly. One option would be to stop certain missions altogether to replace them with only "endgame" missions. Something like "Open War" where you have become a real problem and the main factions have decided to take you out. That's like being ISIL with the global powers out for you: not manageable long term, but it would increase the number of VIPs (Guildmasters, Provosts, Cardinals, Star Gods) flying around. So you either wait out the rng and slowly capture them, or go to war, fight and get them then strike out at the governor before you get taken out (like the original XCom fight!). Or you just churn out tanks, make money and buy the VIPs from the mercs...
Talking about buying your way out: how about buying reverend, espers and reps for a smaller sum? Those can be frustratingly rare sometimes (like Ivan, I've seen very few espers: 2 in 3 years. I made sure to capture both).
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Well, in any case I think Toxiguns may merit a way to more easily get them - I recall seeing posts where someone else was complaining about not having them for research. And I've never seen a Pest Control Manager before, do they even exist? And how do you tell them apart from Team Leaders and Marsec Operatives anyway?
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Treader PCMs are in Mansion missions and on terror sites. They used to be more common when there were fewer factions for early pogroms, then went to near extinct but mansions brought them back (~1 mansion every few months * 3 years / 3 factions should enable you to face a trader mansion at least once).
To me, the toxigun is not a problem. Engineers are quite common for trader crews, you can find the gun on some units (medics I think?), you can get it from disks, you can get it from PCMs, that's not bad. The tech I am after being 1 autopsy of 1 faction is much harder to find, although since it comes as a requirement later, you should have encountered it by then (no idea what I did with the corpse I had...).
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I'm not sure I have it in me to grind the same missions over and over and over and over and over again for months or even years before I can get by sheer coincidence the type of enemy I need.
IMO, it's just bad game/mod design to have this requirement. The main tech progresssion path should basically be impossible to miss, whilst the tons and tons of more exotic weapons and lore can be hidden away to make replaying more fun. $0.02 and all that.
I've played another three months by now, and I got a few reticulan trading missions which netted me a few nonconsequential techs and I managed to translate the bible thingie, which again had no further effect. I lost some of my best soldiers on a mercenary mission, these chimps are just too powerful for me just now. But I already have their crap researched anyway back from when I still got mutant pogroms (none occured in the last three months, just crap like Ratmen Rodeo) and even have three rotting away in my prison cells.
I just don't get it, there are so many other things in this mod which you can just blackmarket or for which there are special "missions" (manufacturing projects ala cave hunt), why not for this crucial piece of tech? If power armor pieces are even dropped from dead enemies, I seem not to have encountered ANY such enemies in my game so far. That's kinda ridiculous.
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@rezaf from what you are describing your particular play through is lacking in trade guild presence in a big way. One faction being absent for extended periods is normal. Alternatives for power armor parts besides marsec are government generals, and the dual mini gun armed humanist unit. Likely others but I don't recall corpse drops very well.
Also smuggler ships can potentially carry almost any item. Something to try anyway.
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Can't really believe you missed all opportunities to get powered armor parts. Sure, power armor from Pogroms and cargo freights can be rare, but - shooting down large ships will bring them rather quick. Can be hard if the game refuses to spawn any Guild ships at all, but largest Academy ships and bases have these too, Raider Gunships have these, Govt has these (if you're fine with large point penalties)... You can also provoke Crackdowns of any of these 4 factions to ensure power armor spawn... You just have to try instead of saying 'it can't be done'. Sure you can have a dry month or four, but your campaign goes on for years already.
Note that interrogating everyone you find is crucial to game progress. Good radar coverage and ability to shot down large enemy ships is also crucial, since I didn't want the player to be able to completely ignore aerial interception aspect of the game (unless he is prepared for a reaaaaly long grind) - most good stuff is locked away in big ships.
As for dedicated missions that make up for missed opportunities - sure, you're right on this, but I can't just conjure them from thin air. Late game is still in the works, and none of the late-game factions have been added yet.
@Legion: Good idea with the smuggler ships to carry power armor parts, but since it's a 'corpse' item, which will crash the game due to ownership problems, this needs some extra work to implement. I need to compile a list with all the extra stuff that Smugglers should carry, since they were added over a year ago and things get richer since that time.
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Well, since people wrote you ought to get the parts even from dead bodies, can you really say I missed those opportunities if they never even presented themselves?
I can't shoot down most large ships per se - my fighters tend to get shot to pieces - but I've done plenty of large and very large ship missions. The church's sway government missions involve very large ships, for example, and I've done at least half a dozen of those. Problem is, the chuch doesn't have 'em power armor dudes, they sport matrons and maidens and altar boys.
The other large ships I did - as I wrote above - was a mercenary vessel, just loads and loads of 'em flying dudes, no power armor.
I used to get frequent raider missions in Australia, but no longer - haven't seen a raider ship in many many months now. I have not seen the Academy in years. The Guild makes an occasional appearance with a freighter, but only comes with low-level dudes.
"You have to try" is a funny suggestion when there's nothing I CAN try. For half a year, I did almost every mission, the only exceptions being a couple of two person civilian skycars and some heavy mercenary missions (as I wrote, I did the first and decided it's not worth it).
And it's not like I never interrogated anyone. I have done loads of interrogations, everything from Savvy Guys to Star Gods. I have the church's Cydonia codes and their Bible translation.
I have interrogated Government operatives and a General. I have interrogated corrupted Doom soldiers and a Chrysallid ... and so on and so forth. I may have missed some specific types, but I have done plenty, rest assured.
I have almost full global radar coverage, only antarctica and the tip of south america are missing.
Like I said, I don't know if I have what it takes to grind out months doing mundane missions that are just samey, dull and boring at this point just for a chance to maybe, MAYBE get that piece of tech that stupidly locks away all the game's progression.
What this mod would need (I realize this is strictly a pipe dream as it's beyond the current capabilities of OpenXCom and adding it no small task) would be a REAL black market. Where what's on offer is in constant flux. Check frequently, or you might miss that old fighter hull. But if you check frequently, you can get most anything if you're willing to pay. Especially power armor parts should be a no brainer. Also tank wrecks. I researched all those fancy tanks an eternity ago, but have never been able to build even one because it requires you to have a wreckage that you'll only get in specific and pretty rare circumstances. But again, I realize this is probably impossible to implement - some other solution has to be found for the mod to remain enjoyable and not force it's player into a many months long hiatus in which nothing interesting happens.
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Put up a save if you don't mind. Maybe myself or someone else here can provide some better advice if we can look at the exact details of your situation.
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This mod hates me. :'(
So, one of my bases was half-heartedly attacked, and the attackers brought ONE powered armor dude. Got the right research, yay!!
But still no Graduation. Why? No Advanced Chemics. Why? No Security Carapace Armor. Next armor to grind for ... :'( :'( :'(
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No Security Carapace Armor. Next armor to grind for ... :'( :'( :'(
You only need to interrogate Osiron Security or Marsec Security guy to get that one. Well, it's all in the tech tree viewer anyway.
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Lol, so I grind samey missions for months and months until, finally, the Academy shows up with a Passenger Transport mission.
And 'lo and behold, three Osiron Security onboard, of which I can capture two.
But NO NEW RESEARCH PROJECTS. :'(
Fun fact: In the meantime, I have however researched Kustom Power Armor. Isn't Carpace Armor supposed to be a prerequesite to that?
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Looks like you have carapace armor researched for ages.
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Indeed. Must've overlooked it - this mod (for better and for worse) just has way too much content for the good old X-Com UI to deal with, even with the improvements that have been made.
I ended up parsing the savegame itself, and as it turns out, what I'm actually missing is a Ghoul interrogation. Now, where the heck do you even encounter Ghouls?
Are they part of the Doom-themed pogroms (I only had a single one of those in three years of ingame play)?
One of the gals that have been with me from the very beginning says in her kill log she killed two Ghouls, but that's all the reference I can find about them.
Do I read the tech-parser right, I should get Poisons & Acids "free" when I interrogate a ghoul, but alternatively I can research it from Primitive Weapons and Animal Poison.
For that, I lack Animal Poison. For many months in the early game, Megascorpion Hunts were a staple, and I still have about 50 corpses stashed away - how comes this never netted me the Animal Poison research? Or do you get it from someplace else?
Edit: Ah, from checking ingame, it seems I'd have to have captured a live specimen and got it from butchering it. Looks like I never managed to capture one of 'em buggers alive, and now I haven't seen one in two years. :(
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Indeed. Must've overlooked it - this mod (for better and for worse) just has way too much content for the good old X-Com UI to deal with, even with the improvements that have been made.
I ended up parsing the savegame itself, and as it turns out, what I'm actually missing is a Ghoul interrogation. Now, where the heck do you even encounter Ghouls?
Are they part of the Doom-themed pogroms (I only had a single one of those in three years of ingame play)?
One of the gals that have been with me from the very beginning says in her kill log she killed two Ghouls, but that's all the reference I can find about them.
Do I read the tech-parser right, I should get Poisons & Acids "free" when I interrogate a ghoul, but alternatively I can research it from Primitive Weapons and Animal Poison.
For that, I lack Animal Poison. For many months in the early game, Megascorpion Hunts were a staple, and I still have about 50 corpses stashed away - how comes this never netted me the Animal Poison research? Or do you get it from someplace else?
Edit: Ah, from checking ingame, it seems I'd have to have captured a live specimen and got it from butchering it. Looks like I never managed to capture one of 'em buggers alive, and now I haven't seen one in two years. :(
Ghouls join in Bandit Pogroms along with Highwaymen and Blood Dogs.
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Well, obviously I haven't seen a bandit pogrom in a long time then either.
I stil don't think I'm educated enough to join in the higher tier discussions elsewhere on these forums, but, just an honest innocent question, wouldn't it be thinkable to make "Cave Hunt" like projects to net you the most basic techs neccessary to progress in the game?
They could unlock only after you progressed way down an alternative research branch, but extremely basic stuff like Animal Poison research shouldn't stop the progress of your game in it's tracks (unless the RNG gods provide you with just the right type of mission, which might happen in 30 seconds or in 30 years of ingame time), should it?
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Wait, you need to actually INTERROGATE a Ghoul to progress in tech tiers, not just Toxiguns? That doesn't seem right. I think Ghouls should probably be more common, maybe have one in Ratmen Village as going there becomes unrewarding rather quickly unless you get apples. These days going on a pogrom is rather early on.
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Wait, you need to actually INTERROGATE a Ghoul to progress in tech tiers
No. You need to complete any one of 5 interrogations, one of them being Ghoul, to get Tac Armor.
As for animal poison, the Megascorpion hunt is not only available quickly, it does lampshade the fact you can get the poison and research it, in advance.
Wider access to basic tech is a good idea, I'm trying to always add new options.
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In my case I need Poisons & Acids though. And there doesn't seem to be a way to get it this far in the game.
Is there even a chance for Bandit Pogroms or more Megascorpion Hunts at this point?
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Well, Megascorpions are all dead by month 17, but Bandits can always show up on a Pogrom. I'll add extra venues of getting the animal poison, it didn't cross my mind that 1.5 years could be possibly not enough to catch a live Megascorpion.
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Well, Megascorpions are all dead by month 17, but Bandits can always show up on a Pogrom. I'll add extra venues of getting the animal poison, it didn't cross my mind that 1.5 years could be possibly not enough to catch a live Megascorpion.
Also mind blind playthroughs where it may not occur to someone that Megascorpions are a crucial capture; that they are isn't exactly intuitive.
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Is there such a thing as a non-crucial capture? Who wouldn't want to capture and interrogate everything and everyone? Would that be any kind of proper play? You say strange things.
Also it's a version issue; it so happens that freshly added items can be hard to find due to limited number of places where they appear.
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Is there such a thing as a non-crucial capture? Who wouldn't want to capture and interrogate everything and everyone? Would that be any kind of proper play? You say strange things.
Also it's a version issue; it so happens that freshly added items can be hard to find due to limited number of places where they appear.
I wouldn't consider most unintelligent beasts to present as crucial captures (for example Reapers, Chryssalids, Celatids, etc), unless there is something that is obviously valuable about them. I don't think your average player starts from a vantage of wanting to play Pokeman (https://youtu.be/Sp22ts2URHs?t=9) and catch em all just cause.
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They are all pretty exotic though. The only reason you wouldn't want to capture them is because you have played the original game and know that interrogating aliens that aren't Leaders or Commanders makes no difference in the end so it could be the same thing here.
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They are all pretty exotic though. The only reason you wouldn't want to capture them is because you have played the original game and know that interrogating aliens that aren't Leaders or Commanders makes no difference in the end so it could be the same thing here.
I mean, metagaming from the original games aside (which indeed compounds the problem), why would you want to capture the Chryssalid for instance? So you can interrogate it about its predilection for mass rape while it snaps its claws at you? I don't doubt that there will be people who capture to satisfy their curiosity, but from a design perspective it makes no sense to rely entirely on players having an unprovoked inquisitive impulse in order for them to proceed with key techs.
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I capture everything both due to metagaming from previous Piratez experience (Advanced personal armor used to be a lot more difficult to unlock) as well as the desire to see what Dioxine will have written in the flavor text of each interrogation. My rule for Piratez is if it hasn't been interrogated at least once, it's a VIP and it's coming back. That included a megascorpion even if they first appear more than a year in my game. One issue with those though, is that its pretty easy to kill them so unless you specifically set out to stun one, it's unlikely that you'll catch one. By opposition, ghouls are tough as hell in the early game, and pretty likely to be just stunned and brought back by default.
As an aside, the chryssalid interrogation is pretty neat (and I think there should be a commendation tied to stunning dangerous stuff, like chryssalids and reapers. The gals that bring those back to the base live should get something like "reckless danger" and "Fur lover" commendations, with appropriately comical text. Same as for capturing an armored beastmaster.
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I'm referring to average players running through the game blind. Yes, if you've played PirateZ before, or otherwise know to interrogate every last thing because key techs hide behind the most obscure, unintuitive and unorthodox stuff (like scorpion interrogations and... costumes) you will do this.
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Yeah - I obviously went into the game blind as well.
I tend to be a collector in these things, but the Piratez early game is more than a little overwhelming for the new player.
There's tons of new things to discover - in general, but also when it comes to tech. And many familiar things aren't there to rely on.
You usually have like 20 items to research to chose from with no way of knowing that some of them actually belong into a different phase of the game (like when you accidentally run across a Doom, a mercenary or a Star Gods pogrom early on), some are totally useless crap, some can safely be put aside for a while, some lead to absolutely essential discoveries that will otherwise prevent the game from continuing properly etc.
Like I wrote earlier, from a newbie player perspective, I feel that the main game progression tech branch should be impossible to miss.
If you absolutely have to pull off stunts like making an esoteric interrogation mandatory for progression, I'd suggest you only progress from that phase of the game to the next when this mandatory operation has been performed.
Anyway, when it comes to capturing live specimen ... it doesn't help that you don't have reliable access to potent stunning options early in the game.
It took me a good while to get Stun Batons, which aren't reliable enough to make use of unless constantly save-scumming. Same goes for the Cattle Prod. Stasis Grenades are also a mixed bag and are unsuitable for unexpected situations cause they take an eternity or two to prime (I'm ok with that, just saying).
In this phase of the game, I generally used bows - which are also a bit of a newbie trap, as they train the wrong skill (throwing instead of shooting), but are just immensely powerful otherwise.
With many enemies, you end up accidentally stunning someone sooner or later with the bow, but appearently it was always lethal to the Megascorpions.
I was also overly cautious I guess, as I hadn't yet discovered that melee appearently doesn't work at all in the mod. No creature I encountered has ever performed a melee attack.
I even cornered a Chrysallid between a fridge and a door and prodded him with the Stun Baton for like 50 turns in a row (captured him alive in the end too). He never even snapped at me.
Had I known this earlier I'd surely have captured a Megascorpion alive.
Is there such a thing as a non-crucial capture? Who wouldn't want to capture and interrogate everything and everyone? Would that be any kind of proper play? You say strange things.
Btw., the mod even seems to encourage players not to always attack everything. For example, many bootypedia entries suggest to hold back for fear of reprisals (if we shoot one of those down, there will be consequences, we can attack these, but it will seriously hurt our relations etc.) - I never found a way to check such indivdual relations, and I ended up ignoring any such suggestions and just doing all missions whenever possible.
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Melee has been fixed now, you should update your game if you want the real experience. Dioxine is(was?) also working on making the early game more manageable. I do agree that there is some trimming to be done in the tech tree though (ex.: I dislike "empty" discoveries that unlock neither buying, making or using anything, even if they lead to something great after.)
Handles and fistycuffs are plenty to perform the occasional capture on most enemies in the game. It's certainly enough to get a megascorpion (although don't try on first turn, the things sting like crazy). Scorpions being so soft, it's easy to get them with a harpoon gun as well, although finding a gal who can fire one halfway straight might be hard in the early game.
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I'm not sure the tech tree has to be trimmed per se - I love that there's tons of things to discover - but I can only repeat myself, crucial tech should be impossible to miss, no matter your playstyle.
It'd be totally cool for replayability if there'd be entire lines of tech relying on such exotic circumstances, but it's very frustrating when you run out of stuff to do and don't know why.
Maybe also make some stuff mutually exclusive (or failing that almost so by having very time consuming "gate technologies")?
For example, I feel that the entire line of age of sails type gunpowder weapons is nonsensical. The early versions are too weak and inaccurate (especially in the hands of early game rookies) and by the time I got access to the later version stuff I also had access to plain better "modern" weaponry.
And if I thought something sounded like a fun thing to try, it had anti-thematic production requirements (this blunderbuss requires a modern military shotgun and two assault rifles to construct) and/or some extremely rare stuff.
Also, all this crap just fills up lists and makes the game harder to play. More of a good thing isn't always still a good thing.
But if you'd concentrate on ye old gunpowder weapons (and get good ones) OR specialize on more modern firearms OR on energy weapons etc., with maybe some super exotic stuff available only when you run across a rare mission variant or something, that'd be totally great when replaying.
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I'm not sure the tech tree has to be trimmed per se - I love that there's tons of things to discover - but I can only repeat myself, crucial tech should be impossible to miss, no matter your playstyle.
In general I agree, but define 'impossible'. If it means railroading, then, no. If it means multiple paths, then, yes - but it's something I'm working at all the time and cannot just conjure. Also it's often not easy to see what's crucial, since basically every more or less basic research is needed to finish the game, with some optional paths only diverging around mid-game- the rest is a matter of order, not choice.
Also it seems you had bad luck with version too - Animal Poison being new and not properly arranged in the tree yet, and Stun Batons and Cattle Prods freshly revamped and accidentally bugged in the process (they will deal proper damage with the next release).
Blunderbuss takes only 4 Scrap Metal to produce, not any Rifles... Also yeah, the flintlocks do suck, but it's hard they wouldn't. You need to catch up to the tech level you consider 'modern' and I feel like there is enough fun and useful stuff dropped there (bombs, flaming arrows, bows, certain melee options) to make it feel at least somewhat rewarding to anyone.
Don't say bows train the 'wrong' skill, after all the coding work that has been done to base their damage AND accuracy on Throwing, finally to be able to grant Throwing experience too :)
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I feel that the flintlock tech is mostly for when you have a really bad string of luck, they are effective, but good luck getting more than 9 shots from the normal ones and I don't know how many is reasonable with the rifle.
Seriously, a musket ball is BRUTAL, if it hits. There's a reason why battlefield medicine largely consisted of removing limbs, and it wasn't that the doctors were hacks.
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Railroading would be bad, but having various ways to get a given tech is always good, especially if the tech is crucial to later unlock significant (required?) tech. For example, in this specific case, maybe celatids can unlock Animal Poison as well? You can find celatids at any point in the game when fighting the church, so that gets rid of the issue.
Seriously, a musket ball is BRUTAL, if it hits. There's a reason why battlefield medicine largely consisted of removing limbs, and it wasn't that the doctors were hacks.
Pun intended or so not intended that you yourself missed it? Anyhow, great one :D
I also think musket balls don't stand up to modern personal armor? It's easy to forget, but even a GO's overall are made of Durathread, which is similar to kevlar yet more comfortable. Those guys in goofy coveralls are actually wearing something that can stop bullets, sometimes, let alone musket balls which don't have a hard, pointy tip.
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Pun most definitely intended :)
Even with crap penetration, those are supposed to hit HARD. But they are starting weapons, and while better than the other human starting weapons when it comes to damage, they're still low tier.
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Pogrom yes though unlikely given number of factions that can spawn them.
I would assume that scorpion hunts stop spawning tho only dioxine knows what stops when.
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I would assume that scorpion hunts stop spawning tho only dioxine knows what stops when.
Well, Megascorpions are all dead by month 17,
Now we all do :D
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Well, you might call it railroading what I'm advocating, but I think it's a bit harsh to use that term on it.
I already described what I meant with "impossible to miss", too.
I propagate defining a set of mandatory techs in each phase of the game (such as the one during which there are Megascorpion Hunts) and making sure the game only moves on to the next stage when you have researched all those techs. I.e., you don't have Animal Poison yet? The game can't progress to the phase where, I dunno, Reticulans start appearing or whatever.
The stages of Piratez are much harder to decipher than those in X-Com.
There can be tons of tech that you can permanently miss, but it should always be nice to have stuff, nothing that can stop the game from going on.
If "basically every more or less basic tech is required to finish the game", too many techs are mandatory and you should cut back on that ($0.02).
Why must Schood Graduation require Chateau De La Mort? Why must Advanced Chemistry require Heavy Flamer, Durathread Armor, Smoke-Ops gear and the Contact to Crazy Hanna (plus seven other things)? The tech web is full of such overly complicated relationships.
About complicated recipes, I think I was talking about the Kustom Blunderbuss, which requires like 2 Military Shotguns, a CAWS and a Blunderbuss or something like that.
Regarding bows, throwing is COMPLETELY the wrong skill, since archery should be a different (much harder to train) skill altogether. :P
I do understand why the decision has been made as-is, but if - like I - you're heavily relying on bows for like a year or more of ingame time, transitioning to something with more oomph (which likely will be a firearm) will be harder since your gals aren't trained with firearms. It's doable, though - and you have options like the Dojo and stuff, or just using weapons that cause area destruction or fire rapidly.
There's a seperate thread for that, but it's just astonishing how often you can miss a 125% aimed shot with a sniper gun at medium distance while hitting an altar boy your gal can't see herself in the head across all the friggin' map was (and still is when I unpack the old trusty bows) a routine thing in my game. Unless I misread the visibility thing has been changed in the meantime, but I'd rather have seen firearms being made more accurate or something. I always wonder how the AI units do it. The Sectopod has like 50% firearms skill, but boy does he like to one-shot kill crouched rookies in camouflaged armor a footbal yard away on a roof behind a fence in thick smoke. ;)
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If "basically every more or less basic tech is required to finish the game", too many techs are mandatory and you should cut back on that ($0.02).
Why must Schood Graduation require Chateau De La Mort? Why must Advanced Chemistry require Heavy Flamer, Durathread Armor, Smoke-Ops gear and the Contact to Crazy Hanna (plus seven other things)? The tech web is full of such overly complicated relationships.
Otherwise most techs would be optional, and what I consider shitty noob traps - like the whole Gauss line in TFTD, wasted research. And I don't like wasted research.
About complicated recipes, I think I was talking about the Kustom Blunderbuss, which requires like 2 Military Shotguns, a CAWS and a Blunderbuss or something like that.
Ah, yeah. But it's hardly a "primitive" weapon, quite the opposite. Also it is the most complicated recipe of all weapons.
Regarding bows, throwing is COMPLETELY the wrong skill, since archery should be a different (much harder to train) skill altogether. :P
I do understand why the decision has been made as-is, but if - like I - you're heavily relying on bows for like a year or more of ingame time, transitioning to something with more oomph (which likely will be a firearm) will be harder since your gals aren't trained with firearms. It's doable, though - and you have options like the Dojo and stuff, or just using weapons that cause area destruction or fire rapidly.
So you a) don't like throwing and bows being lumped together, or b) do you feel like your overspecialization lead you into some trouble? Because a) unavoidable, number of skills is strictly limited, b) exactly as intended.
There's a seperate thread for that, but it's just astonishing how often you can miss a 125% aimed shot with a sniper gun at medium distance while hitting an altar boy your gal can't see herself in the head across all the friggin' map was (and still is when I unpack the old trusty bows) a routine thing in my game. Unless I misread the visibility thing has been changed in the meantime, but I'd rather have seen firearms being made more accurate or something. I always wonder how the AI units do it. The Sectopod has like 50% firearms skill, but boy does he like to one-shot kill crouched rookies in camouflaged armor a footbal yard away on a roof behind a fence in thick smoke. ;)
I can't do anything about OXCom engine being glitchy (because miss at 125% is always caused by a glitch - you'll never miss it if you have a clear line of shot, just sometimes game thinks you have a clear shot, while reality is that you have no possibility of hitting), or about the vagaries of pure randomness.
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Otherwise most techs would be optional, and what I consider shitty noob traps - like the whole Gauss line in TFTD, wasted research. And I don't like wasted research.
Well, obviously you much prefer let players run into dead ends, the only hope of salvation being potentially years of grinding. :P
If a line of research leads to the most powerful weapon or armor in the game, extremely potent stunning, a poweful support unit, a great fighter or whatever, can it really be described as a shitty noob trap?
Ah, yeah. But it's hardly a "primitive" weapon, quite the opposite. Also it is the most complicated recipe of all weapons.
I swear I didn't select this on purpose. It's just a weapon I ran across browsing the tech viewer. If this is an unusal outlier, just imagine I hadn't mentioned it. ;)
So you a) don't like throwing and bows being lumped together, or b) do you feel like your overspecialization lead you into some trouble? Because a) unavoidable, number of skills is strictly limited, b) exactly as intended.
None of the two, actually. As I wrote, it's relatively easy to get out of the "trap" (this ain't the new XCOM) and I fully understand you had to pick a skill and it made sense to pick throwing. No arguing. If anything, I was surprised just how powerful bows were when compared to anything else I could field at the time and for many, many months after.
I can't do anything about OXCom engine being glitchy (because miss at 125% is always caused by a glitch - you'll never miss it if you have a clear line of shot, just sometimes game thinks you have a clear shot, while reality is that you have no possibility of hitting), or about the vagaries of pure randomness.
Yah, I wasn't trying to put the blame on you, it was merely an observation. Even gals that had been using it for a while can only get two or at best three shots with the bow off in a round, and it'll take quite some time before this won't exhaust their stamina post haste. So there's some counterbalancing, no doubt- especially with further improvements to LOS recently made.
Still, it was funny how much I loathed seeing trees on a map during that time, because they'd block the arcs. And still there was nothing like not even leaving the Buenaventura, just climbing on the roof, spotting with parrots and clearing the map with archery fire. Fun times.
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If you only see the toe of an enemy, the engine will let you fire at it. Since even hits (you made your x% roll) have a bit of deviation (much less than misses, obviously), you can miss the target and hit an obstacle instead. This is especially true given that the engine has a weird way of aiming at the target (closest to unit center instead of aiming for the middle of the exposed area, if I remember my "discussion" with volutar properly).
By opposition, bows often have a direct shot at a target thanks to the arcing trajectory, so they suffer much more rarely from this. It does happen sometimes in forest, when you can get a shot at all. It's a trade-off that means bringing a few of both weapons to support your melee gals is probably best, especially when fighting weaker enemies.
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Also, the effectiveness of primitive weapons is likely more due to modern armor not really being designed with it in mind, combined with the stated superhuman ability of the ubers, it makes sense that weapons designed to take advantage of their physical strength would be monstrously effective.
Though perhaps the bows bought through the market should have a far lower max capacity, as they are probably not made with uber strength in mind. We might need two branches of bow tech, those designed around human strength and those designed by and for Ubers. Crossbows and variants would be a middle ground. I don't think you're going to find any non pirate uber using a bow, so the second would probably not be found as loot at all.
Tradeoff between human and uber bow tech could be ease of use and energy cost vs raw power.
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I dunno, I'Ve kinda grown to like them as an alternative to firearms.
I still retired them for the most part, mostly because bows are mostly useless against well armored foes.
There are no explosive arrows with dynamite, no stun arrows tipped in tranquilizer, not even fire arrows for bows other than the hunting bow. (Btw., I also thought it was weird that ammo was completely incompatible between bows). The Longbow takes too much TUs compared to it's increased damage (I suppose it has increased damage) already offset by reduced accuracy.
No bows other than the Hunting Bow have a snapshot option, i.e. they have no reaction fire.
And, of course, bows are pretty useless in closed quarters.
Still, with some improvements, they'd remain a viable choice far longer, but I dunno if that is desired or not.
Btw., when I started this topic I had a little less than 20 million in the bank. I just surpassed the 100 million mark with almost twice as much income as costs (8.1m income vs. 4.7m mainenance) - I still pay my brainers for sitting on their hands, and my Runts mostly churn out Grog or (if I have apples) Chateau De La Morte for sale, because they don't have anything better to do with them.
I have now enough power armor parts to build a single loader armor (yay!) and managed to snag some stuff from my first mansion invasion (these things take WAAAAAAAAY too much time for the gain, not going to do another one unless I have to).
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Well, at some point this is a game set in the future, so shooting pointy sticks at the enemy with a long stick and string ought to get replaced by some decent pew-pew :P Bows and throwing stuff already lasts quite a while (indeed, probably because uber gals can use very strong bows much more efficiently than humans. There's probably no human bow as a gun would always be better.)
If you're interested in using throwing based weapons for a longer time, try capturing some mercenary captains. They'll tell you about some neat stuff.
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Arrows have to be made specifically for that type of bow, if your arrow isn't strong enough for the bow, it will shatter instead of fly, too strong may have problems too, different types of bows require different lengths of arrow, different materials, different styles of fletching, there's lots of factors.
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Well, at some point this is a game set in the future
Two words, people: future bow.
;)
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Two words, people: future bow.
;)
I went for the spoiler free version:
If you're interested in using throwing based weapons for a longer time, try capturing some mercenary captains. They'll tell you about some neat stuff.
:P
Edit to spoiler Solarius' now spoilered spoiler (?!) :o
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I went for the spoiler free version:
:P
Damn, you did... Sorry. Hidden my post behind a spoiler too. :P
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It's kinda funny how you regulars find convenient excuses explaining the quirks of the mod.
Anyway, I'm content I had to phase out bows, it's fine in the context of the game as-is.
But, as I've outlined earlier, I think it'd be way cooler to focus on different things in a playthrough and on others in another.
Like, you can follow gunpowder weapons and eventually get to the kustom blunderbuss etc., or follow plasma weapons and get to the BFG etc., or follow bows and get explosive and stun arrows.
However, unlike currently, you shouldn't be able to do ALL those things. It just leads to the bloated list of 25 shotgun types you're never going to use and 25 armor types that were outclassed the second you researched them - and having to scroll for 25 pages before you get to the thing you REALLY wanted to produce.
If Dioxine doesn't want to do that it's fine - his mod, his rules. I'm just saying I think it'd be cooler that way.
The only things I really think have to be adressed are the lighting issue (discussed in another thread) and the pacing issue (dead end if you haven't researched the right stuff at the right time).
Everything else is purely a matter of taste/preference to me.
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The problem with your "follow the path of the amazons/commandos/sci-fi soldier to complete the game in different playthrough" is that there has to be a reason why you can't research guns when you have researched bows (also it's impossible to do without using a convoluted mechanic, but that's a minor thing). Why wouldn't you be able to look at a gun and say "I want one of those"? Because you've used bows until then? That makes no sense. "I like guns with bullets, that plasma gun that can blow up whole buildings means nothing to me, it has no bullets" is even worse. There is just no reason to have something like that, except common "tech tree branching" crap that modern games try to force on us supposedly for replay value. "You can play the whole game again making subpar choices after having completed it with the best choices. Enjoy gimping yourself!" because it is practically impossible to balance all choices to be exactly equally viable, especially when taking into account player preference, play style and aptitudes.
That is quite shallow compared to Piratez's way of making what you encounter variable and the tech dependent on what you encounter, thus forcing you to adapt to different things using different tools. Play once, encounter the guild more and you'll be playing walking tanks because that's what you can learn from the guild. Play the game again, maybe you'll encounter the academy instead of the guild and be spamming MC instead of walking around in power armor. If you wait long enough, yeah you can get it all, but the experience was different since the order you got your tech was so. After 3 in game years, I still don't have MC because I haven't found a Provost, but my gals are all walking in crazy armor because I saw plenty of guild and merc troopers. In a previous game, I had witches MC'ing people within a year because I managed to capture a Provost on a base defense. It was a completely different thing: instead of tanking everything, I was skirmishing, avoiding direct confrontation and taking advantage of MC to scout and disable enemies.
The early game is a bit more uniform and given how it increases the total length of the game, it kinda helps in making things more uniform because you have a lot of time to encounter all factions before being able to really discover the tech that affects gameplay. I'm not entirely convinced by the new early phase of the game (conceptually, I preferred the "you've got muskets, they've got personal armor, have fun!" early game), but I haven't given it a real try yet either.
Also, I'm quite sure not all weapons and armors are pre-reqs to finishing the game, so nothing forces you to research everything if you don't want to. You can limit yourself to a subset should you want to, instead of forcing Dioxine to limit everybody. You have the choice of either rushing to the endgame or taking forever to research everything. I know I prefer the latter, maybe you just need to make the choice yourself and not research some stuff instead of asking Dioxine to implement a required choice.
As for your other things, Dioxine already said he's not aiming to have research traps, and lighting is indeed an ongoing issue.
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Easy Arthanor. ;)
First of all, I don't think there'll be any changes like this anyway, as I have a feeling Dioxine sees things you way. And that's fine with me.
That said, I wasn't saying: Prevent players from researching x, my idea was just to make research more expensive in a way that forced to specialize (or become a jack of all trades that can use everything, but doesn't have access to the higher tier stuff).
The idea of me advocating keeping players from researching something is a little silly in the context of what this thread is about - an overconvoluted techweb that has many unneccessary and illogical cross-connections currently preventing me from progressing.
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Oh, I agree that the current philosophy is unlikely to change. I just respond badly to suggestion that branching and streaming are superior. That's really not how I see things working in science. And you're still saying "doesn't have access to higher tier stuff". That's what I'm disagreeing with, why would your scientists suddenly be unable to progress? Because they once worked on bows? That makes no sense. If you want it all, you just have to spend the time to get it all. Given a set number of science effort, at a given time you'll either have a lot of one thing, or a little of many things, and it balances itself. Then if you want to spend more effort (keep the game going longer to get everything) or start specializing (because you found a branch you really like), nothing should be preventing you from doing it.
Research is quite expensive already, but maybe some gating tech for different styles could work, with a good first "prize" and text on what the potential of such a branch is. Kind of like the Primitive Weapons tech does for bows et al. That would be nice.
And I disagree about illogical cross-connections, although I agree that being completely prevented from progressing shouldn't be possible.
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Dude, would you kindly stop trying to twist my words around? :P
In the context I used it "don't have access to higher tier stuff" merely means you'll only have (realistically) the time do do either A++ or B++ or C++ or ABC (without the pluses), with both A, B, C and the pluses representing costly research projects. Powergamers will inevitably find ways around this, but who cares? Like you, I wouldn't really like excessive gating.
Some mutually exclusive branching would be nice (in the sense of something like siding with one of the factions, for example), but other than that, cost should be the only delimiter.
Also, as of now, tech isn't really expensive.
I'm on my first run with the mod and by no means an expert X-Com player. I only have 16 Brainers. Still, I've not run into an really excessively expensive tech so far. And, with few exceptions far and in between, I haven't researched anything of note in at least half a year now.
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I'm not trying! You just write in such a way that I interpret this way. :P
I did say that given a set amount of effort, you'll get either a lot of one thing or a little of many things, so I agree with you on the "A++ or B++ or C++ or AB+ or ABC, etc.".
And I also agree with
And, with few exceptions far and in between, I haven't researched anything of note in at least half a year now.
There are stretches where you wonder why your brainers are spending time doing what they did, because it's not worth it from the results you get. That is one of my issues with Piratez, but unfortunately the tech tree is such a monster that it's hard to address.
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Expensive tech would only force player to tons and tons of missions before ANYTHING gets unlocked. Still he would research everything, since there are no time limits.
Making lots of tech unmandatory would lead to geometrically-expanding list of unresearched (and never-to-be-researched) topics.
Sure multiple paths will be nice, they're planned, but fuck son, do you think it's that easy? I'm alone on this job :)
I get that most games of this kind have the kind of tech tree you're proposing, rezaf, but this is IMO one more reason to do it in a different way (more akin to civ games).
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I mean, metagaming from the original games aside (which indeed compounds the problem), why would you want to capture the Chryssalid for instance? So you can interrogate it about its predilection for mass rape while it snaps its claws at you? I don't doubt that there will be people who capture to satisfy their curiosity, but from a design perspective it makes no sense to rely entirely on players having an unprovoked inquisitive impulse in order for them to proceed with key techs.
It's possible that you could later utilize the knowledge about their fast metabolism and bilology to create a magical medkit that allows you to restore more health to your troops when healing them, possibly at the cost of other consequences. Or you could just wear their exterior as a hat to strike fear into your enemies, in fact that's already in the mod
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Expensive tech would only force player to tons and tons of missions before ANYTHING gets unlocked. Still he would research everything, since there are no time limits.
It all depends on implementation. As it is now, there's already a TON of often very weird sets of requirements, and the why and when is FAR from intuitive.
For example, already in the dead phase of the game I still find myself stuck in, one of the things I researched was the Rail Driver. I had one lying around in my stores for years, but because the intereconnected techweb wills it, my gals were unable to take it apart to tell what it was, how to use it, how to build ammo for it etc.
If the MAIN techs (A, B and C from my example) were easily accessible with requirements you almost cannot miss, but advanced techs would require a live captured high-ranked enemy, this alone would naturally push you into one path or the other depending on which enemies the RNG spits out in your game.
Have a lot of academy presence? Chances are you'll concentrate on energy weapons, as the best techs require academy provosts.
Many mercenaries? Heavy Guns will be your thing. And so on and so forth, every "faction" would provide access towards perfectioning research in a range of weaponry. But none of this perfercionist research would be mandatory.
In a game with balanced enemy presence, you might find yourself approaching the endgame without having explored either branch in-depth.
Thoroughness would bring it's rewards - many fancy toys to play around with - but none of it would be strictly neccessary, so if the chance to capture high ranking individuals never presents itself - no biggie, none of that stuff is strictly neccessary, not having any of it won't stop your game in it's tracks.
If you still want to linger around obsessively capturing every piece of tech, sure, just don't research the gateway tech and wait for the RNG to bring in another faction.
Does this really sound so bad?
Making lots of tech unmandatory would lead to geometrically-expanding list of unresearched (and never-to-be-researched) topics.
You're contradicting yourself. First you write: If techs were made expensive, players would STILL research everything no matter how long it takes. Because if players are able to, they'll research EVERYTHING.
But then you write: If not everything is strictly mandatory, players will leave stuff unresearched anyway. Because if players are able to, they'll skip EVERYTHING.
Now what?
I think you're right on both accounts, but for different kinds of players.
The mod as it is now FORCES all players to research most everything in each and every game.
And screw those whom the RNG gods don't bless and who find themselves unable to research some of the exotic thingies. (i.e., me in this game).
Sure multiple paths will be nice, they're planned, but fuck son, do you think it's that easy? I'm alone on this job :)
Did anybody write anything that was proposed has to be finished next week?
If none of it ever makes it into PirateZ, so be it - we're merely having a discussion of things that MAY be worth looking into.
And you're the one making the calls. :)
I get that most games of this kind have the kind of tech tree you're proposing, rezaf, but this is IMO one more reason to do it in a different way (more akin to civ games).
Yah, I realize that. I can only repeat myself, though - I think PirateZ has far too much content in it to force players into researching EVERY LAST BIT OF IT in each and every game.
It also harms replayability, imo.
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You're contradicting yourself. First you write: If techs were made expensive, players would STILL research everything no matter how long it takes. Because if players are able to, they'll research EVERYTHING.
No, that's not what I meant. Yes you will probably research everything IN THE END, but in the meantime, the to-do list would become absurdly long. In the previous statement I merely wrote that research time is absolutely irrelevant tideness-wise, it only makes the game longer.
Basically what you want from me is to completely abandon my model of tech tree and replace it with yours. I really don't care about intuitiveness of research tree, because my goal is exactly opposite. Items with weirdest sets of topics aren't usually mandatory, or only unlock some advanced features. The research tree is supposed to be puzzle; your improvements would completely overturn it.
Does it harm replayability? Depends on the player. Such a puzzle tech tree actually makes the Only True Way of research quite impossible, which does add to replayability. Sure, tech cockblocks are annoying, but on the other hand, 'this shit is useless' moments aren't as prevalent, since it is hard to early research something that is still great far into mid- or even endgame.
That being said, I'm not saying my model is better. It might well be worse. My goal is to do it differently than the well-treaded and well-explored paths you propose. Do you think it's a failed experiment? Well, it's your right.
As for your gripe of being hated by the RNG gods. From a certain point of view, it's a blessing in disguise; forces you to explore different techs you'd never have researched. Also, more ways to get to gateways tech will be added with new content. This is the solution I envision here: redundancy. The redundancy is already well visible by the multitude of sources you can get a lot of entry tech from.
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No, that's not what I meant. Yes you will probably research everything IN THE END, but in the meantime, the to-do list would become absurdly long. In the previous statement I merely wrote that research time is absolutely irrelevant tideness-wise, it only makes the game longer.
Ah, ok then, my bad. I will say that I had an absurdly long research list anyhow in the current model and that, again, it'd depend on the implementation, but you made your point.
Basically what you want from me is to completely abandon my model of tech tree and replace it with yours. I really don't care about intuitiveness of research tree, because my goal is exactly opposite. Items with weirdest sets of topics aren't usually mandatory, or only unlock some advanced features. The research tree is supposed to be puzzle; your improvements would completely overturn it.
"My tech tree" is just ideas, and iseas are cheap. Sorry to say, but "your tech tree" (the one currently in the game) doesn't appear to have any idea behind it and looks as if randomly generated.
I asked question about the feasibility of some requirements earlier and they remained unanswered. However., when you say this...
That being said, I'm not saying my model is better. It might well be worse. My goal is to do it differently than the well-treaded and well-explored paths you propose. Do you think it's a failed experiment? Well, it's your right.
... the argument of course ends immediately. After all, what can you say if somebody argues: "But ... but ... but ... I WANT things to be a disjointed incoherent mess!"? :P
However, as I also wrote earlier, your mod, your call. In the end, I presume you wouldn't write me (or anyone else) a C&D letter if I tried to make a mod with a different tech progression.
Does it harm replayability? Depends on the player. Such a puzzle tech tree actually makes the Only True Way of research quite impossible, which does add to replayability.
You wrote earlier that, to finish the game, you'll have to research EVERYTHING that can even in the vaguest kind be considered basic. If not even things like Chateau De La Mort are skippable, I'm inclined to take your word for it. Which also means, once I have finished the mod, I have seen everything it has to offer on that front.
Sure, tech cockblocks are annoying, but on the other hand, 'this shit is useless' moments aren't as prevalent, since it is hard to early research something that is still great far into mid- or even endgame.
I can assure you I had many, many 'this shit is useless' moments while playing PirateZ. At least 80% of the weapons and guns aren't worth researching/having/using/buying/whatever.
Some of those are worth a chuckle or trying them out just for fun, or might be worth using in exotic situations that might never present themselves, but many are not even that.
I do like the variety and having tons of stuff to research, but ... as I wrote, it's a disjointed mess, which can be frustrating at times.
As for your gripe of being hated by the RNG gods. From a certain point of view, it's a blessing in disguise; forces you to explore different techs you'd never have researched.
I'm actually one of the kind of players who will research anything they can anyhow, given the chance. I had trouble with live captures, but other than that, I even often delayed projects that looked important to finish up some nooks and crannies. But then - it's the topic of this thread - I ran out of stuff to research. There's no things I could pursue.
Recently, the Humanists have started to make an appearance and there was a little bit of new research, but nothing of note.
I'm hated by the RNG gods because the only thing that could bring progress to my game was a pogrom with a Ghoul. And I haven't had a pogrome in 2 months, they have become RARE.
And if they occur, more often than not it's the Star Gods. It's cool, I have some of them in my prison, yay. But I can't progress in the game because I don't have a Ghoul.
I have enough money in the bank to buy a Church Cardinal, but I have a bunch of those in my prison, too. All I'd need is a Ghoul. MY KINGDOM FOR A GHOUL!
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Did you get the research topic "mutant self defense force"?
That cuts down heavily on pogroms, I don't think it can completely stop them. It's a post "school graduation" tech, I don't know if you are past that or if the RNG does seriously hate you.
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No, I'm still pre school graduation.
As I elaborated before, I managed to miss "Animal Poison", so the only way to get the entire research branch neccessary to get School Graduation (via Poisons & Acids I think it's called) is interrogating a live ghoul. And these are incredibly rare.
Btw., I wonder why Megascorpion Hunts stop appearing, but you still get the worthless Warehouse Wars, Temple Raids and Ratmen Rodeo - not to mention the INCREDIBLY time consuming with almost nothing to show for it Mansion Invasions.
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OK. It's really easy to deride my work, so feel free to do it some more :) But there's nothing more I have to say. Have a good day.
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Mansions give gems, which are quite valuable. Over time, as you get better gals, better armors and more tools, mansion missions also become quite a bit less work.
Also, at this point, you're in a research dead end that wasn't foreseen or planned for. Quit bitching and fix it (add a live megascorpion to your alien containment and consider that it was a bug that got you where you are). Your game is pretty much broken otherwise as the odds of getting the ghoul you need are rrally small.
Keeping the game going as is and complaining about it repeatedly is pointless (and annoying). Your point has been made way back when Dioxine realized it was possible for players to miss animal poison the way you did. I'm fairly certain there will be alternative ways in a future release to account for that and if not, it's because Dioxine decided not to add them while being aware of your position, so it is unlikely to change from more complaining.
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OK. It's really easy to deride my work, so feel free to do it some more :) But there's nothing more I have to say. Have a good day.
Fair enough. Thanks for bothering to tune in in the first place, and have a good time yourself. :)
Also, at this point, you're in a research dead end that wasn't foreseen or planned for. Quit bitching and fix it (add a live megascorpion to your alien containment and consider that it was a bug that got you where you are). Your game is pretty much broken otherwise as the odds of getting the ghoul you need are rrally small.
Lol, I even scanned through the savegame with Notepad++ to see what tech I was missing, why didn't it occur to me to simply edit it, being in plain text and all.
Too used to savegames being hexadecimal without the ability to just insert and remove stuff at my leisure. Since you gave me this suggestion, I'll assume there's no anti-cheating mechanic in place (like a checksum or something) - so thanks for pointing out the obvious, I'll do just that.
Keeping the game going as is and complaining about it repeatedly is pointless (and annoying). Your point has been made way back when Dioxine realized it was possible for players to miss animal poison the way you did. I'm fairly certain there will be alternative ways in a future release to account for that and if not, it's because Dioxine decided not to add them while being aware of your position, so it is unlikely to change from more complaining.
I may have something more to say, but as for this particular topic, I'll concede you are probably spot-on. You just should've prodded me into cheating earlier. ;)
I'll let the thread rest now, thanks for your assistance too.
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Well, I should apologize for my previous tone. Thanks for taking it so well. Although Dioxine needs no help to defend himself, it felt wrong to see the repetition. I've gotta admit it never occurred to me that it didn't occur to you to cheat ;P I'm glad my rant gave you the solution in the end ;)