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Modding => XPiratez => Released Mods => XPZ Strategy/Tactics => Topic started by: Surrealistik on August 10, 2016, 09:48:27 am

Title: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 10, 2016, 09:48:27 am
Discuss weapons that you think are awesome/are shit/are great/are too good/etc here.

To start off, the Gauss Musket has got to be the M16 of this game (okay until you research Plasma I guess). Great accuracy, good snap for reaction fire, not too TU demanding, loads of damage and stopping power (enough to penetrate Power Armour consistently from anywhere other than the front), light enough to be carried by untrained hands, a good damage typing that boasts consistent performance, and a decent clip size for its damage output and accuracy. It is also pretty much impervious to explosions in the hopefully unlikely event a poor gal with one ends up being blown to smitheroons (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOvglodUIcA&feature=youtu.be&t=126). Beyond that, it is highly affordable! If you're not afraid of farming Supply Ships, you will have more of these weapons than you will know what to do with. This workhorse is my standard issue on base defenses and has never let me down (alongside mines, mininukes and smoke), and I was particularly impressed by its most recent performance against a full scale Academy scum base invasion vs 10 Rookie gals with Dojo/VD training.

Honourable mention to the Custom Shooty Gun (though it is damned heavy and bad for inexperienced gals) and Battle Rifle as solid 'M16' all-rounders at the times you get them.

Likewise Wands of Rending are an excellent, consistent and reliable (within its effective range) choice on troopers with strong VooDoo giving no shits about armour (but plenty of shits about resistances; don't use these on tanks) to deliver consistent damage and bleed at high to perfect accuracy. In addition, they are extremely light and compact, allowing for more grenades or Wands. Currently this weapon is actually seeing more use than the Gauss Musket among my elite VooDoo strike teams.

Longbow speaks for itself as the early/mid king of indirect fire. Hardly an all-rounder, but something I take on every mission where arcs aren't forbidden.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 10, 2016, 10:51:59 am
Sure.

I'll try to list my favourite early weapons. (Some of them very early, some not so, but generally before lasers.)

For pistols, I think Manstopper is my favourite (especially with EP munitions, but that's not exactly early). It's reliable and has enough kick. Just don't try to harass people wearing plastasteel armour with it.

The best SMG is definitely Blackmarch. It is very accurate and has decent damage, for an SMG. Seems to be a tech level above all else. But I've used Assault SMG with good results, too.

Shotguns? I don't use them that much. The Blunderbuss is absolutely devastating, but a bit too specialized for my taste.

If we're talking assault rifles, then Battle Rifle is a good all-rounder - it's basically vanilla rifle on steroids. But it is IMO overshadowed by the Autogun, which is very accurate, light and pretty strong, with good range. And then there's the Linux Mandrake/Origami, which is even better in most respects.

Sniper rifles are all useful. Special mention goes to the Hunting Rifle/Scoped Rifle as a good, cheap weapon for inept swabbies (they won't do much, but at least they'll be hitting and scoring experience).

Heavy weapons? Now that's more complicated, since they have many different roles to fill:
- I would say Boarding Gun is better than people say, but it is best at relatively short ranges, at full auto. And its descendant, the Custom Shooty Gun, is pure poetry.
- Spitfire and LACC are great at killing lightly-armoured targets and generally causing havoc, due to their explosive ammo.
- The HMG is quite awesome, but IMO it requires a flying gal to use it effectively. It also shines on some maps (like Ratman Rodeo) and is next to useless on others (base assault/defence).
- The LMG is more like a specialized Battle Rifle than a typical heavy weapon. It is surprisingly effective.
- RPG and Panzerfaust: used to be absolutely essential in older versions, but now you just don't meet powered armours and Cyberdiscs on a regular basis. Still, if you do...

Melee weapons: Rapier, Cutlass, Sabre and Axe are all relevant, since each is designed for a different set of stats. Daggers are more of backup weapons (some types are quite good in the right hands, but I'd rather give them Axes).

Stun melee weapons: Fisticuffs for the strong and skilful, Handles for the strong and brave, Electric Clubs for the plebs. Cattle Prods are way too unwieldy for me.

Explosives: all are useful and have their roles.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Star_Treasure on August 10, 2016, 11:21:38 am
For pistols, I love the spiky SMG. I know the manstopper is probably more efficient, but I like having autofire and an extra melee attack.

Favorite "rifle" I've encountered so far is the gyro stabilized auto-gun, if it can count as one. All the power of a machine gun, but with a snap shot so you can still make reaction shots. The Minigun and HMG are fun, but not practical as regular weapons.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 10, 2016, 11:34:00 am
For pistols, I love the spiky SMG. I know the manstopper is probably more efficient, but I like having autofire and an extra melee attack.

Right, it's just new and I didn't have the chance to try it yet.

Favorite "rifle" I've encountered so far is the gyro stabilized auto-gun, if it can count as one. All the power of a machine gun, but with a snap shot so you can still make reaction shots.

Totally! Although Linux is significantly more powerful.

The Minigun and HMG are fun, but not practical as regular weapons.

As regular weapons, no. But they're support weapons. ;) BTW the Minigun damages armour, can't remember if the HMG does it as well.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 10, 2016, 11:38:55 am
I like the Gyrostabilized Autogun, but the Battle Rifle was very stiff competition, particularly with its significantly greater power and aimed shot. Ultimately they were both rendered obsolete by the Custom Shooty (and Gauss Muskets not long after once the Supply Ship farming really got underway).
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 10, 2016, 11:44:42 am
I like the Gyrostabilized Autogun, but the Battle Rifle was very stiff competition, particularly with its significantly greater power and aimed shot. Ultimately they were both rendered obsolete by the Custom Shooty (and Gauss Muskets not long after once the Supply Ship farming really got underway).

If you mean Gauss weapons, then yeah, they're the best when dealing with units not highly resistant to AP. I especially like the pistol - not only it's crazy strong, but also very accurate.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Star_Treasure on August 10, 2016, 11:48:37 am
I'm not up to the point where I can farm supply ships, but I am having fun intercepting spartan transports (Not sure what the official classification is, the ones with the tall wings and long narrow body) Spartans always have nice guns, too bad they don't know how to use them  :P

Nothing is more satisfying than equipping your entire squad with heavy weapons for a Pogrom, only for it to turn out to be ratmen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HORkT4a2MhQ
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 10, 2016, 11:49:52 am
If you mean Gauss weapons, then yeah, they're the best when dealing with units not highly resistant to AP. I especially like the pistol - not only it's crazy strong, but also very accurate.

Which would be the vast, vast preponderance of them, and even in cases where you do encounter resistant enemies, they deal so much raw damage that Gauss weapons often ultimately put them down anyways (especially the Gauss Sniper on a skilled Gal; dayum daniel).

And yeah, Gauss Pistols are definitely a weapon of choice on my Plate Armour shield gals (excepting those gals strong with the force who tend to run Wands of Rending).
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Star_Treasure on August 10, 2016, 11:56:00 am
I still can't decide which is the best anti-tank weapon. Other than just letting the Mortar-gall handle it. This mod has so many choices.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 10, 2016, 12:10:34 pm
I still can't decide which is the best anti-tank weapon. Other than just letting the Mortar-gall handle it. This mod has so many choices.

Gauss Sniper on a skilled gal works well. High Explosives rarely let me down and offer excellent distance on strong gals; a much more practical and portable Panzerfaust. Satchels are okay, but goddamn, they weigh so fucking much (such that even a STR 90 gal struggles to put good distance on them) and are so damn huge as to be nigh impractical.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 10, 2016, 12:41:00 pm
I still can't decide which is the best anti-tank weapon. Other than just letting the Mortar-gall handle it. This mod has so many choices.

Shit, I forgot the mortars. Mortars are BADASS.
Not necessarily optimal, but badass.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: nrafield on August 10, 2016, 03:07:38 pm
Hammers are my favorite tool for dispatching enemies which are immune to literally everything I can throw at them. Cheap, efficient, albeit unwieldy, and avaliable from the start!  They are also the best tool for nabbing a live Mechtoid so you can unlock the mushroom beer recipe (arguably also the only one that will actually scratch their armor early on)
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 10, 2016, 05:09:13 pm
Spears.  Spears all day for my skirmishing gals - I've done many a successful base raid by sending in amazon gals with spears (and hammers for the occasional power armor).  The accuracy is brilliant for training up some melee, the armor piercing makes it likely you'll take down anything short of power armor, and even then, a particularly strong gal might be able to do it.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Arthanor on August 10, 2016, 05:12:41 pm
Spears are great, I agree!

I'm surprised nobody mentioned fuso knives. For how comparatively low tech they are, they can reach damage on par with many pistols and are great weapons for breaching or clearing buildings. They only really fall from favor when "shotgun pistols" come up (death blossom with Chem, especially).
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 10, 2016, 05:50:39 pm
Aw man, the death blossom.  It never goes out of style for me.  Great breaching weapon when you first get it and wonderful to pair with a melee weapon, then it sees a resurgence as the sidearm for gals in power armor.  I love the API ammo for lighting up targets at night, chem rounds are never a bad thing, and HVAP is a great improvement to the gun's quality of life later in the game.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 10, 2016, 06:41:44 pm
I like the MP Lascannon a lot for its gratuitous firepower, I even find myself still using it though I have battle lasers available.  I feel that it needs an upgrade though - nuclear-powered lasers seem to be an improvement over every standard laser weapon, save for the MP Lascannon.  Maybe give it an option to manufacture a nuclear-powered version out of the original once the correct prerequisites are researched?
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: greattuna on August 10, 2016, 08:46:24 pm
115 laser damage with no need for ammo manufacturing? Hmm.

As for weapons, I dunno. Nothing has been more useful for me than ol' good rifles. Battle rifles, laser rifles, plasma rifles (not gauss though. 95% aimed accuracy and lack of autofire doesn't make me want to use it). There are heavy weapons in my arsenal, like plasma scorcher, BFG, flechette multicannon, mortars, but they're few and not commonly used. Every gal also carries a handle in case I feel like capturing somebody, a elerium grenade (much easier to get than fusion ones, and only slightly less effective), a smoke grenade and white phosphorus grenade (doubles as illumination tool).

I considerably like advanced laser weapons, since they don't require me to manufacture\scavenge more ammo. Same goes to other "infinite" weapons, be it discs o' death, melee weapons or flechette multicannon (yes, I mentioned it twice, because it's awesome).
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 10, 2016, 08:58:37 pm
Spears.  Spears all day for my skirmishing gals - I've done many a successful base raid by sending in amazon gals with spears (and hammers for the occasional power armor).  The accuracy is brilliant for training up some melee, the armor piercing makes it likely you'll take down anything short of power armor, and even then, a particularly strong gal might be able to do it.

Seriously?

You've done hideouts with mostly spears?

What difficulty?

I'm considering trying out ghost knives and electroclaws on Full Plate gals; the former seems like it should murder the shit out of just about anything with casual ease on my VD specced ladies.


@ Greattuna: I disagree with you on the Gauss Musket; yeah, that 95% aimed shot isn't the greatest, but damn, that snap shot accuracy definitely makes up for it, and it is overwhelmingly powerful at the time you first get it from a Supply Ship landing. Gauss Musket doesn't really get obsoleted until you unlock plasma tech.

I'd be more partial to laser weapons if the Church wasn't so ridiculously resistant to them (I hate having to constantly change loadouts).

Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 10, 2016, 09:15:55 pm
Seriously?

You've done hideouts with mostly spears?

What difficulty?

I'm on Blackbeard difficulty (equivalent to vanilla's veteran?), so there aren't ridiculously huge numbers of enemies in the hideout.  And these were just raids for a few gauss weapons - small crew, pick a section of the base, kill everyone in that area, sneak away with the loot.  It's mostly about staying in the dark and skewering targets from behind - I figure that a gal taking a gauss bullet is dead anyways, so the amazon outfits are for high mobility and nice bonuses to the spear's damage.  Seriously, try it with a couple of gals in training so you're not so worried about losing them.  The tight corridors are a melee playground, and the only real trouble would be power armor (or mercs, but I haven't seen a merc base yet).
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 10, 2016, 09:22:05 pm
115 laser damage with no need for ammo manufacturing? Hmm.

Balanced by huge encumbrance, lack of auto fire, and only one shot per turn even with snap shots.  The laser weapons seem outdone in the anti-armor department once heavy plasma rolls around, and you can loot enough of that by shooting down ships on crackdown missions that manufacturing doesn't matter anymore.  It'd be nice to feel like my shoulder-mounted laser isn't a step down in utility to a much lighter weapon the size of a large rifle.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 10, 2016, 09:28:39 pm
I'm on Blackbeard difficulty (equivalent to vanilla's veteran?), so there aren't ridiculously huge numbers of enemies in the hideout.  And these were just raids for a few gauss weapons - small crew, pick a section of the base, kill everyone in that area, sneak away with the loot.  It's mostly about staying in the dark and skewering targets from behind - I figure that a gal taking a gauss bullet is dead anyways, so the amazon outfits are for high mobility and nice bonuses to the spear's damage.  Seriously, try it with a couple of gals in training so you're not so worried about losing them.  The tight corridors are a melee playground, and the only real trouble would be power armor (or mercs, but I haven't seen a merc base yet).

Plate is sufficient to not die from Gauss (especially with the shield), though odds are you will take some serious hurt.

And yeah, Hideouts on Sparrow/Davy Jones or whatever are saturated with baddies; I prefer leaving them intact for more Supply Ship farming personally.


Also I agree with the MP Lascannon being underwhelming; a nuclear powered version should go even further than 115; I'm thinking like 130 or more with the ability to ignore a certain % of armour (and perhaps with bonus damage vs terrain for breaching ships).
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 10, 2016, 09:40:07 pm
I still tended to use the amazon/spear kit on supply ship raids too - didn't want to risk resources for better armor to a chance baby nuke.  That's actually why I started raiding the base instead - I didn't have to wait until the supply ship, no worrying about day vs. night, and no baby nukes to fret over.  You can still farm them too, more often than supply ships, and they have the bonus of being able to drag VIPs out alive whenever you need them.

I researched plate later on, and by the time I had plate armor, I was used to the insane mobility offered to my melee gals by not wearing heavy armor.  Hit and run tactics are very effective when breaking line of sight is as easy as it is in a hideout.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 10, 2016, 09:43:35 pm
I still tended to use the amazon/spear kit on supply ship raids too - didn't want to risk resources for better armor to a chance baby nuke.  That's actually why I started raiding the base instead - I didn't have to wait until the supply ship, no worrying about day vs. night, and no baby nukes to fret over.  You can still farm them too, more often than supply ships, and they have the bonus of being able to drag VIPs out alive whenever you need them.

I researched plate later on, and by the time I had plate armor, I was used to the insane mobility offered to my melee gals by not wearing heavy armor.  Hit and run tactics are very effective when breaking line of sight is as easy as it is in a hideout.

Honestly I don't find that plate hinders mobility all that much. True on Hideouts being a good source of farming; the problem is that it gets tedious dragging out VIPs and tech manually, plus the Psi is super annoying and dangerous until you field a VD proof team. The fact that it is also pretty grenade/arc unfriendly is another major consideration. Also Baby Nukes are excellent loot; the key is to mind your facings, make copious use of smoke, don't roll dice with reactions, and don't overextend.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 10, 2016, 09:48:11 pm
Eh, I just like being able to sprint everywhere with the amazon armor - hide n' stab was my favorite game for the hideout/supply ship raids.  I did plenty of supply ship raids, but worrying about not having a perfect smoke screen and eating a baby nuke to the face was a bit too stressful.  I probably could have just brought more smoke, or just used more expendable crews.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: khade on August 10, 2016, 09:50:22 pm
I have to object to the Gauss Musket being called a M16, it is clearly a M1 Garand instead.  Moderately heavy, with extremely good damage, no rapid fire, a good workhorse weapon.  Not built as a sniper, but able to pull it off
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 11, 2016, 01:51:44 am
@ khade: Haha, fair, I was thinking M16 along the lines of a steadfast, reliable standard issue.

@ ohartenstein23: Smoke and bomb was my modus operandi (for supply ships), in large part because I have only 8 gals to work with lacking the Boneradventure (which will become 12 once I transfer over my Prospector and sell off my Pachy).

Oh yeah, and the humble Frag and Smoke Grenades; MVP. I cannot overstate how valuable these are to me. Also Hellerium Grenades and High Explosives.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Star_Treasure on August 11, 2016, 04:39:43 am
Well, I just encountered star gods and their minions for the fist time.

Nobody died, but I NEED MORE FIREPOWER!

I also managed to punch out a star god novice for old times sake (the first Ethereal I ever saw in classic X-com was also a live capture) I guess the Gals weren't sure if the invisible floaty guy was real or not, so they punched it to find out.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 11, 2016, 05:17:24 am
The best antidote to the SGs seems to be the best antidote to almost everything in the game: overwhelming (and in particular indirect) explosive firepower. There is a reason that it's generally the preferred solution to guerilla warfare and entrenched ground forces IRL where cost and casualties are no object.

When in doubt, blow it out.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 11, 2016, 05:59:51 am
Curses, hoisted by my own petard (or when berserk mininukes go wrong):

https://i.imgur.com/zIgLiPH.png
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: KateMicucci on August 11, 2016, 07:27:57 am
I haven't used any gauss except heavy gauss on some of the tougher missions.

My favorites:

Ol' carbine. Fast and accurate aimed shots, and a swing attack. Pretty good by early game gun standards.

NERF Laspistol. Powerful sidearm for gals early game. Strong and cuts through a bit of armor.

Custom shooty gun. Good autoshots and powerful bullets when you first pick it up.

Heavy Slugthrower. The advantage of this gun is the shotgun like aim bonus at close range despite not being a shotgun. With the recent damage buff its almost as strong as gauss. A max strength gal can carry one of these, a reload, a couple grenades and a heavy tac suit.

Smartrifle (not smartgun) Strong bullets, 5 shot auto, huge magazine, and most important, a swing attack. My B team are carry these because they're good enough to stomp any recurring missions or smaller UFOs.

Bossar. Basically a bigger badder version of the smartrifle. At the moment half my A team has these, and they did decently against the star gods in two terror missions so far.

Recoiless rifle- if it wasn't $3000 a shot, and I got to see heavy enemies more often, I'd probably have more than one gal carry this. A 125 damage single shot rifle has a strong niche.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 11, 2016, 02:59:06 pm
I also did most of the raids with the Pachyderm, though mostly with the B or C team.  Exactly for this reason:

Curses, hoisted by my own petard (or when berserk mininukes go wrong):

https://i.imgur.com/zIgLiPH.png

I like to think of it as an extreme risk vs. reward situation: are the gals and equipment I brought with risking a beserk baby nuke for 2 mil in loot?

@KateMicucci: Yes, yes, and yes on the ol' carbine, smartrifle, and slugthrower.  I love any rifle that can aimed shot twice per turn, and the firepower of the slugthrower is brilliant.  Perfect for standing to the side of a door and blowing away anything coming out with that accurate snap shot.

Was anyone underwhelmed by the XG weapons besides the chaingun?  They're a nice firepower upgrade and all, but I found them rather quickly sent to the security details of secondary bases and forgotten.

Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 11, 2016, 03:32:33 pm
I like to think of it as an extreme risk vs. reward situation: are the gals and equipment I brought with risking a beserk baby nuke for 2 mil in loot?

Just don't give it to anyone of Bravery 90 or less, to be super-sure. Problem solved. You'll need to train Bravery a bunch first, but there are outfits with +20 or +30 bonus. With 90 Bravery, you can pretty much ignore even psi-induced fear.

Also thanks to everyone writing, this thread is really helpful and nice to read :)
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 11, 2016, 03:46:25 pm
Just don't give it to anyone of Bravery 90 or less, to be super-sure. Problem solved. You'll need to train Bravery a bunch first, but there are outfits with +20 or +30 bonus. With 90 Bravery, you can pretty much ignore even psi-induced fear.

It's not my hands with the baby nukes I'm worried about, it's the panicked GO who is firing blindly at the demons in the smoke :P
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ivandogovich on August 11, 2016, 07:19:06 pm
Also thanks to everyone writing, this thread is really helpful and nice to read :)

Translation:  "The Nerf-Hammer is Back in Business, Baby!" ;)

But yeah, this has been a very informative thread, and I've been slow to chime in.   It has been great that some of the weapons touted are ones I never use (nerf gun, etc), and this goes to show the richness of the diversity that Dioxine has built into this mod.

Some general thoughts. 

Bows:
In my recent play, I have stepped away from bows entirely.  Early scale mail gals benefited greatly from them for early stat growth and were a solid core of my early game cadre.   I think the hunting bow is my preferred weapon in the series.  The ability to get off three shots per turn is terrific, and sniping over the Airbus/Car/Pachyderm is a great tactic.  I missed the ability to use fire arrows, but that just made these even better imo.  (Btw: how about the ability to make agua arrows for the combat bow say after Chemistry.  These require Chitin as the arrow heads would be fashioned from Lobster shells, and impregnated with some caustic chemical (maybe it causes a bit more morale damage too)).  The longbow suffers in its time restraints and with my play only gets off about a shot per turn, with that shot often not dropping the target.  I know Meridian is still using these as a stable weapon in his fairly homogenous arsenal and they are working well for him, so its probably just my playstyle that puts me off them.  I will say that my impression of bows was probably heavily influence by the "its practically impossible to hit things on the diagonal" bug that I believe should be resolved now.  In my next run I'll give these more of a try.  And also, I'm a believer in the Future Bow but haven't been fortunate enough to unlock them in my current run.

Pistols:
Early game I love the Black Marches!! Nice ammo capacity, fairly common (decent ammo resupply) and that 2-shot auto is great for the upclose "crap, my handle missed, I'll try to take this guy down with my last remaining tu's" moments.  The holdout has been useful in early skimpy outfits for last gasp efforts and also some general marksmanship practice.  I pretty much avoid all other pistols as too underpowered after this, until I get the Smart Pistol.  These are terrific weapons, and everyone gets one for a good chunk of mid game.  Perfect for reaction training on Scorp Hunts. :)  All the self powered lasers are terrific, with the Scorchy becoming an excellent side arm in mid game/late game.  It can breach mansion walls, so makes a great tool there.

SMGs:
Early on, anything can be good. Assault SMGs were very solid for me, with nice hits as decent ranges, and the burst great for up close finishing.  Blackmarch is nice too.  However, the SMG with its 2X1 is great.  With the advent of Incendiary munition, this becomes a staple for my squads.  Snipers get them for the first steps to the roof of the bonny.  They can auto fire at enemies spotted, but they are also great for lighting up night maps.  Burst fire upclose with incendiary is often a terrific finisher, and this is a solid side arm for all of late early through mid game.  The new addition of the Spikey looks awesome too, but I'm not sure how often I'd chose the melee over an autoburst if I was serious about downing someone. I think the Linux branch is really cool and I like the Origami's melee hit sound. The Deathblossom with API is a solid favorite for many of the reasons above and is often kitted out with my Shield basher.  I put one of these gals on the Jetbike and soloed many civ traffic runs, as well as the early game missions, (tower, outpost, rodeo, warehouse, etc).  API lets me light up the terrain, and takes down foes quick, and because its a one-hander there is no aim penalty.  I used it so much, I created hand sprites for it to enrich my play.  The king of SMGs however, for me, is the Cougar.  As soon as I can, everyone gets one.  It only needs 2x1 slots so it becomes the new Pistol for Everyone.  Except its not. Not a pistol. Its a hungry, death spewing, instrument of mayhem and carnage.  I just gave my new "Mansion Express" crew a workout with these.  The auto shots reliable chew through mansion wall, and I took down many foes by targeting them through the walls and letting them rip.  With the  first couple shots taking down the walls, I'd often get a hit or two with the remainder of the burst.  Time costs, good aim, decent ammo capacity. These are just so solid.  In the mansion run, I ran out of ammo a few time due to my flagrant use of them to breach instead of using my rippers, but I carried a reload for everyone so this was never a problem.  As far as energy/higher tier smgs: The XG Assault seems nice for its snaps, but at 3x1 it feels like it competes with rifles in this slot.  Ret Plasma guns have been great for dealing with early mercs for me, and the assault laser is a great weapon to pick up in early pogroms as an "in battle upgrade" if you run across them.  The plasma subrifle is nice if you can unlock it early, as it can also be a nice merc counter.

Rifles.
Hunting rifle/scoped rifle/ scoped carbine. All terrific for early game.  Once I get PS ammo, the Battle Rifle becomes the main staple in the arsenal. Anyone who isn't specialized gets one.  Good aim, good stopping power, gun butt attack for stunning, its just such a solid fire arm. Great for early game, and into mid game.  Of course all of the previous discussions of Gauss Muskets are dead on. Its deadly, its lovely, its solid.  I often up-gear to it for those "tougher missions."   The Smart Rifle is solid, but I find I've often specialized my crews out by that point, and only have one or two "general troopers" that might use it. I pretty much ignore lasers until I can get the self powered versions.  Looted Stingys from Siberia were solid for a good part of mid-game.  Very nice range, hits often.   I've never messed with the Eurolas-rifles, put off by their price tag, but they look solid.  I know one player who rushes for them in early game then uses them to dominate.  I like the idea of the XG Rifle, as I can supply my own ammo, but I haven't used them much.  Of course plasma weapons, once available become terrific in their own right.

Sniping systems.
The good old sniper rifle is a terrific weapon.  It only gets replace by the Custom Snipin Gun.  Two rounds, are twice as juicy.  I almost always use this mode with these weapons.  My feeling is that the first round may not kill, but it may do enough Armor damage to let the second round finish.  This may not be born out in actual game mechanics, but that is what I like to imagine in my own head cannon. :)  Sniper Gauss: Awesome. Its the up-gun for snipers for those tough missions.  I've worn down tanks with these, downed many power armored foes too.  Its draw back: Overkill. ;)  I'm just bringing some Bossars online to play with their auto fire, so that should be fun.  So far, I've not run into any Energy weapon systems that I consider a good sniper tool.  I've used a stingy as an alternate for my snipers (ie, scorp hunts, etc) but nothing as a main gun.

Heavy weapons.
There is little so satisfying as firing your HMG through 4 shanty buildings to vaporize a rat on the other side of the map. ;)  The penetrating power of this tried and true system is often worth the hassel of getting into firing position the turn before.  The Heavy Gauss is a great counter to Power Armor, especially when the muzzle is placed in the backplate immediately before pulling the trigger. ;)  I love grabbing these as battlefield loot, and running around with them.  Just drop them at the end of the turn if you are over burdened.  Auto lasers, are nice for the same reason.  The Fatty, is a great tool once you get it. 20 round bursts shred terrain and foes alike.  Not a fan of the Heay Laser other than for parts.  The mortal is solid, but I not employed it recently.  The 90 power felt like it often left heavy targets (tanks, power armor) still up.  The other place I'd look to use it is clustered enemie: great to knock down 3 at a time, but typically I play on medium difficult and I don't often get that target density.  The tornado is a great alternative but its so heavy I can't even use it right now. :(  RPG/Rockets, etc:  Panzerfausts are really king for a long time.  I do like the quad launcher at times, but have not had the bravery to employ the dragons much.   As far as the Advanced Launcher goes, what I really want it to do is have two waypoints.  This will come when the OXCE version catches up to the nightly a bit more, as this is in the main branch.  (As a side note, this will make the Sentry Gun a viable tool as well).  The recoiless rifle is certainly nice for its heavy power too! For early firesupport though, I still love the grand old Assault Cannon.  Runt Duds/ Adventurer gear with Exploding/Superconducting rounds are terrific.  I have a hard time figuring out when to move to the Grenade Launcher.  At some point, forested maps become such a hassle for me that I move from indirect fire weapons to almost exclusively direct fire weapons.  The GL suffers because of this.  I do like that its rounds upgrade, but I often don't employ them.  The same for the Auto Grenade Launcher.  I think I've been put off by the weight or something, but I never do use these.

Squad Auto Fire Support Weapons
The early Boarding gun is very solid per all the earlier discussion.  The custom shooty gun is amazing, as is the Super Shooty gun for the walls of lead and shear mayhem it can deliver.  Auto-guns, and Machine guns, Spit fires etc, just feel under powered.  Even the Gyro-stabilized auto gun feels like a waste of tech because the hitting power of the slugs are is just too light. 

Under used:
LACC, Auto Cannon, Light Cannon:  they never seem to make a big impression on my so I tend to pass on equipping them.

Never Tried:
Mining Laser & Rail Driver: has anyone found these useful?

Also worth mentioning: 
Fusion Torch!  My breaching tool of choice for Cruiser Engine Nacelles!  Perfect for this.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 11, 2016, 07:52:15 pm
I also did most of the raids with the Pachyderm, though mostly with the B or C team.  Exactly for this reason:

I like to think of it as an extreme risk vs. reward situation: are the gals and equipment I brought with risking a beserk baby nuke for 2 mil in loot?

@KateMicucci: Yes, yes, and yes on the ol' carbine, smartrifle, and slugthrower.  I love any rifle that can aimed shot twice per turn, and the firepower of the slugthrower is brilliant.  Perfect for standing to the side of a door and blowing away anything coming out with that accurate snap shot.

Was anyone underwhelmed by the XG weapons besides the chaingun?  They're a nice firepower upgrade and all, but I found them rather quickly sent to the security details of secondary bases and forgotten.

I think you misunderstand; two guys on the ship with mininukes panicked and blew up every last tile around the elevator, lol.

The mission itself that the screenshot was taken from was a complete, casualty free success.

As for the XG weapons, what are those again?

Ivan's post will take some time to digest so I'll get around to it later.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 11, 2016, 08:01:35 pm
I think you misunderstand; two guys on the ship with mininukes panicked and blew up every last tile around the elevator, lol.

The mission itself that the screenshot was taken from was a complete, casualty free success.

As for the XG weapons, what are those again?

Ivan's post will take some time to digest so I'll get around to it later.

Ah, I missed that detail when I was looking at it on my phone.

XG weapons are the manufacturable version of Gauss weapons, though they perform more like upgraded versions of smartrifles, smartpistols, and smartguns, with a lighter version of the slugthrower added to the mix.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ivandogovich on August 11, 2016, 08:41:13 pm
heh.  Just noticed:  I left out shotguns from my list.  Thats about right. I pretty much ignore shot guns anyways.  In the first month or two, they can be nice in shanties because they are great for breaching these fragile structures, but otherwise, I kinda ignore them.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: LuigiWhatif on August 12, 2016, 02:23:02 am
Most of my choices have been mentioned.  Battle Rifles were my go-to for a while before I got enough Gauss Muskets, and then when I upgraded to plasma I still kept some Gauss.  I used the boarding gun and its upgrades for a long time.  I had a few lasers scattered in my ranks, but I only dedicated to the Battle Laser and MP Lascannon.  My sniper was the the usual Sniper Rifle -> Custom -> Gauss progression and I always kept a bowgal and Grenade launcher for arc support.  I preferred grenades over direct fire explosives, and my grenadiers eventually got Disks O'Death.

Otherwise, I was a big fan of Power Maces.  Their stun is overkill for low-level enemies but I just kept a handle on my gals.  I was also a fan of Tesla Coils.  They functioned as plasma submachineguns for my close quarters troops.  I'm actually pretty sure I had better weapons by the endgame, but I liked them too much to abandon them.  Shotguns always had a place.  Early on I'd give one or two to my rookies and have them run up to enemies.  By endgame I'd have veterans with Flechette Multicannons and Plasma Blunderbusses.  I play with Voodoo power improvement on, so Ghost Daggers were pretty common.  I actually used those acid bagpipes for a while, but I lost it in an explosion and by the time I got more I already had Disks.  I also recall a past game where a Gal with a Hellgun was one of my best.  I actually haven't played the last two updates, so I'm looking forward to trying the new stuff.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Arthanor on August 12, 2016, 06:43:32 am
Everyone has such a different approach, I'm impressed. Kudos to Dioxine for creating such variety!

One of my favourite setup, which I forgot to mention, is auto-cannons with gas ammo, knockout grenades and revenant/juggernaut armor. Gas ammo murders most things while leaving loot and gals intact, knockouts get you all the slaves you want if you're too lazy/they are too far to get there.

@Ivan: The tornado rocket mortar is meant to be used while wearing loader armor, which I believe is even a pre-req for it. Loader armor, TRM, reload and Bozar is a go to setup for me, for one gal per major craft. The TRM is well worth dedicating one gal to it, and the Bozar is good for taking potshots when you don't need complete obliteration of a target. Both weapons need two hands, which is annoying, but they also both don't need so many TUs that you can't drop one, pick up the other and then shoot. I wish loader armor could overcome the 2h requirement, due to its improved stabilization gyros or something, as that would make it even more awesome.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 12, 2016, 08:21:57 am
I second Ivan's call out of shotgun class weaponry; they range from mediocre to straight up trash. Never used em, never will.

I haven't gotten to buildable Gauss, advanced lasers or plasma yet, so mind that I haven't quite yet tasted the weaponry rainbow.

MC is broken as usual, albeit not quite to the extent it once was; nonetheless I refuse to use it, just as I will not use Blaster Bombs.

Love Ghost Daggers even without VD strength training (that's cheating IMO since it allows you to overcome the 60 cap so far as I'm aware) they are extremely powerful for their size, weight and TU cost. Plate Armour Tower Shields are amazing for captures and UFO raids.

As other VD weaponry goes, big fan of the wands; all of them are extremely useful. TK Projector is alright, but I feel it needs some love: more accuracy (perhaps accuracy being a squared function of VD skill), more power, and unlimited range, with power falling off outside of an effective range. Seduction is great, despite the immunity many enemies have (though they usually make sense and are intuitive; Slave AI piloted tanks give no shit about yo titties no matter how exquisite).


Agree with Scoped/Hunting/Carbine being great, reliable weapons early on; I used them extensively.


Never used pistols outside of the Zapper and Gauss Pistol (not enough stopping power/lethality for the downsides). Never used SMGs (rifles are basically better in every way that matters).
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 14, 2016, 11:38:38 pm
Ghost daggers are officially a favourite weapon of mine since they destroyed with casual ease the fucktons of heavy armour at the Siberian base + Solid Snaking enemies for days with Stormy Armour.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: KateMicucci on August 15, 2016, 07:40:31 am
What armors do people use? I'm moving into late game now and feel more and more overwhelmed by the number of choices.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 15, 2016, 08:36:06 am
Not quite into the late game, but I've become a big fan of the Stormy armour (apparently looted from a Smuggler's vessel). Thus far though, Plate is my number one choice in terms of both actual usage and overall approval; usually guarantees survival from at least one plasma or gauss hit, and often can withstand multiple hits, while featuring immunity to virtually all light-medium power weapons. In general, the best armours are typically the ones that feature the highest armour values/best resistances because it means fewer chance of deaths/long hospital stays when the RNG goes against you/Black Swan event comes along as it inevitably will in the long run. Seductress also gets an honourable mention.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: nrafield on August 16, 2016, 09:09:54 am
Most gals early on get a Swimsuit as they often have low Energy, especially if they also have unimpressive Firing, Throwing accuracy, Bravery, or Strength. I often wind up using these as cannon fodder, can't be sure that there won't be an enemy hiding with a Rail Driver/Recoilless Rifle/Heavy Plasma hiding in a corner which will instantly take out the gal with the rare suit of heavy armor. I use Tac Armor for them for most part, as it's relatively easy to get, and while not a cure-all for enemies with better weapons, it helps to reduce the fatailty rate from 90%+. Kinda like the Personal Armor from X-COM.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: LuigiWhatif on August 16, 2016, 11:02:47 am
When I last played I had a pretty set strategy.  Very early I had most of my units in Scout and Adventurer outfits.  My high reaction gals were given Rags for their minor reaction boost and my snipers were in Brainer outfits so they could stand in smoke.  My medic used Runt armor to carry x-grog.

After some progress, Tac Vests were my default for rookies.  Most of my standard gals were in Tac Armor, while high-reactions would use Mesh and most snipers would upgrade to Heavy Armor.  My top sniper would use early hover equipment to get a good vantage point.  Throwing and melee would be in Amazon, with and melee upgrading to Xeno as soon as possible.

When I got to blue armor, I'd give Stormy to my high reaction gals and Dragonfly to the top sniper.  Gals with bows would stay in Amazon while the rest would also get Stormy when I got Disk's O'Death.  Melee gals would upgrade to Revenant then Brute as soon as resources allowed.  Defender and Guardian would be the default for my normal gals, and rookies would get Tac Armor if I had a surplus or stick with vests otherwise.

Obviously by endgame I'd get my gals in Assault and Annihilator as soon as possible.  I'd also have a single unit in Bio-armor with a Blaster Launcher in her backpack.

For special armors, I had one Nurse early on and then two Nurses/Saviors after getting the Bonny.  I only used the Seductress on one gal, but she was one of my best units.  Ghosts were sprinkled through my forces.  I really just considered them another melee gal and while I did like their power, I never had more than two at a time.  I only used Novice until I got Witch, and with Witch I had two when I got it and three when I got the... Leviathan I think it was.

I've actually never used Plate.  Most of my games I played back when it had the old formula, and the one game I played with the new formula I had such a drought of Deep Ones that by the time I could make one I had already started on Annihilators.  I also never looked into the Swimsuit line.  Though I haven't played in a while so maybe my pattern will be shaken up next time.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: legionof1 on August 16, 2016, 06:43:30 pm
Armor wise I spend probably about 85% of the game in guerilla outfits for the versatility that comes with the max inventory coupled with sufficient pierce resist to live through most bullets. A small number of specialization outfits for archers and breachers. Voodoo stits in corner ignored in favour of more booms. Most armour choices just don't fit my mobile rifle gal+explosives+small medkit play style when I can effectively manage damage by manipulating vision at a much lower resource investment.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 16, 2016, 07:20:10 pm
Armor wise I spend probably about 85% of the game in guerilla outfits

You're going to like the next release. :)
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 16, 2016, 07:22:09 pm
You're going to like the next release. :)

Why's that? Will Guerilla benefit from the active camo mechanic?

It's always appealed to me, but Scale did at about the time I gained access to it much more so (especially with TFTD damage active at the time).
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 16, 2016, 07:26:02 pm
It may also have to do with some of the resources that Dioxine's posted to Ivan's Alt Corpses thread.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 16, 2016, 07:26:59 pm
quote author=Surrealistik link=topic=4825.msg69480#msg69480 date=1471364529]
Why's that? Will Guerilla benefit from the active camo mechanic?
[/quote]

Not telling, because Dioxine would possibly pout :)

It may also have to do with some of the resources that Dioxine's posted to Ivan's Alt Corpses thread.

Well...... :)
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 17, 2016, 09:06:08 am
Lol, the arena fireball launcher, my god, this weapon was _made_ for me. Comically powerful and worth every penny.

Every base is getting a full complement to spam the access lift and hangar with ASAP.

Reminds me of this veteran of the death games (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugFVpiM5tTQ) who should most definitely be a canon VIP.

Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: nrafield on August 22, 2016, 11:53:37 am
So I've tried out sniper rifles after an unfortunate accident in which a Researcher casually managed to kill 3 of my gals from full health in Warrior armor with one. Turns out they are really strong, capable of one-shotting an Osiron Security from front. A decent alternative to spamming explosives to hit enemies from afar.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Star_Treasure on August 22, 2016, 12:22:05 pm
A gal with a sniper rifle saved the entire squad once. Everyone else was bleeding out, and she just stood on top of a hill making one aimed shot every turn until it was safe to end the mission. Given how panicked autofire is the standard for most units in the game, a gal with high accuracy making aimed shots with a good weapon is pretty amazing... Until you try firing at a guy on the other side of a chain link fence :m 100% my ass.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 22, 2016, 03:40:38 pm
This problem will hopefully disappear soon, as there is a patch to fix Line of Fire behavior available - if it works, it'll probably be merged. When it does, you will be simply getting 'No LoS' messages when trying to shoot through such obstacles.
Which is why you miss, the game lies to you that hitting is possible, while it isn't.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Meridian on August 22, 2016, 04:18:47 pm
This problem will hopefully disappear soon, as there is a patch to fix Line of Fire behavior available - if it works, it'll probably be merged. When it does, you will be simply getting 'No LoS' messages when trying to shoot through such obstacles.
Which is why you miss, the game lies to you that hitting is possible, while it isn't.

I'd be very careful about this... I'll believe a fix exists only after I see it.
It's not easy to do, I've tried... and got lost within the special cases of special cases of special cases.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 22, 2016, 04:22:37 pm
Maybe it uses too many special cases then :)
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Arthanor on August 22, 2016, 07:03:46 pm
I don't know how chainlink fences work, but they are a really annoying tile. Sometimes shots go through, sometimes not. I've once unloaded a super shotgun autoshot on a fence from one tile to have all pellets to through when I was trying to destroy it, only to have it stop all pellets when I tried to snapshot a unit through the still standing fence. Gah! I hate those! (and have no idea how they are rendered in LoF space, certainly they can't be representing the links?).

Sort of on that topic, I have started to move away from sniper weapons entirely despite liking them a lot especially with the damage scaling. I now favor HMG type weapons for support fire. They both require so many TUs to fire that the soldier is stationary, the HMG is heavier but generally you don't need extra stuff since you're far away from the fight. Vulkan bolters, Fatty gatling laser, XG chaingun are now favorites, not because they list crazy high damage values (~65?) but because their outcome is predictable. The RNG can make a gauss sniper headshot into nothing, but when you shoot 10-20 times with 40-50% to hit (so 4-10 hits), the outcome is much more reliable and you can even trust that you will take out power armor, instead of praying for a high roll with a sniper.

At some point, the accuracy of the sniper rifle becomes meaningless (200+% to hit?!). If % above 100 could improve your minimum damage (but not maximum), then sniper weapons would be able to compete again, by allowing the sniper to not only hit weakspots for high max damage, but always hit something relevant and allow you to depend on it. I understand why TftD damage distribution isn't good (too reliable, makes high armor values too strong, low armor values too weak), but snipers have a hard time standing up to heavy weapons. I'm not an explosive fan (!! I like my loot and captives too much) so I barely use them, but those also benefit from doing at least 50% damage and against under armor if hitting. I feel that leaves snipers without much of a niche, except the "no collateral damage" niche, which isn't really all that much.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 22, 2016, 07:13:58 pm
The RNG can make a gauss sniper headshot into nothing, but when you shoot 10-20 times with 40-50% to hit (so 4-10 hits), the outcome is much more reliable and you can even trust that you will take out power armor, instead of praying for a high roll with a sniper.

That's why I don't leave home without Meridian's .exe which features gaussian multipliers. Fuck linear distribution 0-2x; that shit is dumb.

That said, I'm definitely of the opinion that

A: Gaussian damage multipliers should be default or at least optional.

and

B: Auto-only weapons should be able to Auto Reaction fire to compensate for some of their loss of appeal due to Gaussian multipliers making precision weapons significantly more consistent; also to compensate for their ridiculously high TU costs and weight + relatively short range.

Quote
At some point, the accuracy of the sniper rifle becomes meaningless (200+% to hit?!). If % above 100 could improve your minimum damage (but not maximum), then sniper weapons would be able to compete again, by allowing the sniper to not only hit weakspots for high max damage, but always hit something relevant and allow you to depend on it. I understand why TftD damage distribution isn't good (too reliable, makes high armor values too strong, low armor values too weak), but snipers have a hard time standing up to heavy weapons. I'm not an explosive fan (!! I like my loot and captives too much) so I barely use them, but those also benefit from doing at least 50% damage and against under armor if hitting. I feel that leaves snipers without much of a niche, except the "no collateral damage" niche, which isn't really all that much.

I agree with the sentiment that there should be a 'finesse' damage bonus (or armour ignoring) for accuracies in excess of 100%; I believe I actually mentioned it to Dioxine on Gaudium007's stream.

That said, with or without ridiculous multiplier distributions, snipers do have a clear role in terms of smoke and snipe which heavy weapons simply cannot do at nearly the same ranges, but I generally agree with most of what you're saying.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: nrafield on August 22, 2016, 08:04:29 pm
Speaking of 100%+ accuracy, I've had more shots with that accuracy that somehow managed to miss than I can count, a lot of targets were in plain sight, and yet the shoot just veered off somewhere else. What the hell is going on?
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 22, 2016, 10:03:42 pm
Speaking of 100%+ accuracy, I've had more shots with that accuracy that somehow managed to miss than I can count, a lot of targets were in plain sight, and yet the shoot just veered off somewhere else. What the hell is going on?

Buggy engine. Problems that date back to 1994.
I believe there is hope for a fix soon, though.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Arthanor on August 22, 2016, 10:58:15 pm
That's why I don't leave home without Meridian's .exe which features gaussian multipliers. Fuck linear distribution 0-2x; that shit is dumb.

That said, I'm definitely of the opinion that

A: Gaussian damage multipliers should be default or at least optional.

and

B: Auto-only weapons should be able to Auto Reaction fire to compensate for some of their loss of appeal due to Gaussian multipliers making precision weapons significantly more consistent; also to compensate for their ridiculously high TU costs and weight + relatively short range.

Some kind of reaction fire would allow for proper suppression fire that these weapons are supposed to be doing. This is especially crippling for the AI: See a machine gun? That's ok, just rush the guy in melee, he can't shoot! It was especially noticeable with the siberian mission, where the big power armored guys were pretty much harmless between smoke and getting rushed on my turn by melee gals who could just run behind them and smash them with a bardiche. When I implemented auto-weapons in vanilla, I gave them a snapshot which didn't make sense to use generally (it was way worse than auto-fire in terms of Accuracy/TU) but at least allowed them to react. I prefer that.

Quote
I agree with the sentiment that there should be a 'finesse' damage bonus (or armour ignoring) for accuracies in excess of 100%; I believe I actually mentioned it to Dioxine on Gaudium007's stream.

That said, with or without ridiculous multiplier distributions, snipers do have a clear role in terms of smoke and snipe which heavy weapons simply cannot do at nearly the same ranges, but I generally agree with most of what you're saying.

What kind of range issues do you have with HMGs, Vulcans and Rocket launchers? All of those have unlimited accurate range like sniper weapons. In fact, they are often able to blow away both the cover and the target, making them far superior to sniper weapons. The XG-Chaingun and Fatty don't have unlimited range, but their TU cost and weight allows you to bring them with power armored or assault gals, to areas where they can definitely function.

Buggy engine. Problems that date back to 1994.
I believe there is hope for a fix soon, though.
There is always hope! But for now I trust in "learning the engine" more than fixing it...
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Star_Treasure on August 23, 2016, 02:11:23 am
This problem will hopefully disappear soon, as there is a patch to fix Line of Fire behavior available - if it works, it'll probably be merged. When it does, you will be simply getting 'No LoS' messages when trying to shoot through such obstacles.
Which is why you miss, the game lies to you that hitting is possible, while it isn't.

What about over penetration? Surely bullets ought to be able to pass through a fence with only minimal reduction in power.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 23, 2016, 02:30:25 am
I thought the AI cheated (as in they could RF with autofire) so I never approached the Supersoldiers from the front. It's possible they didn't fire on you because they have pretty awful reactions. Personally I utilized Ghost Daggers against these dudes to stab at their souls; usually one-two shot them for minimal TU cost.


At any rate, yes, I definitely feel that autofire only weapons could and should benefit greatly from auto-fire reaction. This would preserve the utility of the snap shot, while allowing those weapons to fulfill their suppression function without being OP as I mentioned previously to Dioxide.


Concerning range issues, HMGs/Vulcans spray and pray aren't as reliable as an aimed shot from a sniper weapon at the longest distances. Say you have a dude with 100% Aim; with an HMG you still have a chance of missing vis a vis a sniper weapon that will always hit (or should; we're apparently getting a fix for buggy projectiles). The chance of missing on all shots is very small, yes, but I'd much rather be sure to hit once with the sniper weapon that will reliably kill with gaussian multipliers, vs have a chance of hitting multiple times. Also spreading into your own troops is also a definite concern vis a vis a sniper weapon which the volume of fire combined with much less then perfect accuracy presents.

Rocket launchers are basically sniper rifles albeit with massive HE rounds.

Chaingun and fatty require actually moving into position which defeats the point of long range/cross map firepower.


Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Star_Treasure on August 23, 2016, 05:46:33 am
Is it possible to code a snap shot that fires more than once?
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Arthanor on August 23, 2016, 06:16:47 am
@Star_Treasure: No, unfortunately snap shots are only one shot. It's not something modders can alter.

@Surrealistik:
The humanist super soldiers cannot react, their weapons only have autoshots. It was not a fluke.

As for the reliability of HMG type weapons, given the likelihood of getting screwed with the 0-200% rule, which is what these weapons are using by default and what prompted the comment. It's false to claim that the sniper is more reliable. Until you reach 100% (which means firing acc = 100 on a regular sniper rifle), you actually have more odds to miss your one shot because of the quadratic dependency on accuracy of the sniper rifles and the forgiving nature of the HMG.

Ex.: at acc = 99
- Sniper rifle accuracy is 0.01*99^2 = 98%, so 2% to miss
- HMG chance to hit is 49.5%, chance to miss is 50.5%, to the 8 for the chance of missing all 8 is 0.42%

Once you factor the chance of the RNG screwing you over on the damage roll, it becomes even more significant.

Still at 100 acc:
- Sniper rifle with Normal-PS ammo: 30-36+100/4 = 55-61 damage
- HMG with Normal-PS ammo: 55-65 damage

The damage being similar, you have similar odds of rolling under the armor value. But if you crank up the accuracy of the firer beyond 100 to increase the damage of the sniper (thus reducing the odds of not doing damage), the odds of missing all HMG shots become even smaller, the odds of hitting with multiple shots increase, and the HMG pulls even further ahead. The vulkan pushes the advantage with the 20 shots, despite the reduced accuracy.

Sure, if you make the sniper rifles more dependable, they get more dependable (but they lose some of their ability to roll really high, which is where they shine with very very high accuracy soldiers to overcome very tough enemies).

With the current rule, you are more likely to get screwed by the RNG on your one damage roll with a sniper rifle than to miss all and/or get screwed on multiple shots of the HMG. You hit often enough that some of the hits will likely roll you good damage, plus each hit does a little bit of armor damage, helping the next to punch through.

The niche of the sniper rifle is with really good accuracy soldiers to push the damage really high, but that is rarely required since the Vulkan can whittle down common power armored foes reliably. Or those trick shots where you have soldiers in the zone, which given your preference for smoke and snipe, shouldn't be much of an issue (it isn't even for me, and I play pretty aggressively with ~50% melee soldiers). So that leaves reaction fire, but with the decreased accuracy and still high TU cost, it's not great either.

The hunting rifle and the like are great for training gals (one hit, regardless of damage, is a chance at a stat increase) and reaction fire (they tend to perform better with snapshots, although the damage is worse), the HMG does better with applying damage at a distance (and I enjoy blowing away the cover too, without blowing away the items like with HE damage).

Anyhow, that's my experience and the statistics to back it up. If you are enjoying the sniper rifles, great for you. I just wanted to pitch in for those weapons which, on paper, might not look too great (crap listed accuracy and really heavy) but can also be really useful (and lead to maniacal laughing while blowing stuff away).
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 23, 2016, 06:27:56 am
@ Arthanor:

I agree that if you want to reach out and murder something on the default ridiculous 0-200% spread the HMG and Vulcan are better than sniper weapons, yes, assuming you can afford wayward shots (again, the scatter risk is real, particularly for the Vulcan, even if you ultimately hit and drop the target). The statistics are known to me, hence the statement that the likelihood of missing all shots is very small.

For gaussian distributions though (which is how damage should be calculated IMO and what I play with personally, and what I was assuming per my prior mention of it), Sniper class weapons all the way, particularly the upper echolon sniper weapons such as the Sniper Gauss, which will reliably one shot anything that doesn't have insane Piercing resist + armour.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Star_Treasure on August 23, 2016, 10:27:41 am
The biggest advantage of HMGs over Sniper rifles is that they won't be frustrated by chain link fences. Heck, you don't even need line of sight. Just a general idea of where an enemy might be.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: hellrazor on August 23, 2016, 10:44:47 am
Sorry but isn't the Autocanon kinda the heavy machine gun?

I personally employ (outside of piratez in my own mod), Knives/Sword, Pistols, Shotguns, Rifles, Sniper Rifles, categorywise.
I already saw the implementations of the Heavy Machine Guns in other ModPacks, but i personally find those weapons how they are balanced to cumbersome and to uneffective.

Sorry to intrude...
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 23, 2016, 12:08:40 pm
What about over penetration? Surely bullets ought to be able to pass through a fence with only minimal reduction in power.

That would be interesting mechanics, but completely new. Possibly deserving a new thread at least. I'd be happy to discuss it.

the default ridiculous 0-200% spread

Well, there are two big advantages of this system:
1) getting hit with a bullet and not wounded much is pretty normal in RL. Same with most other types of damage. I like how bullets are not death rays in X-Com - sometimes they hurt, sometimes you're lucky, sometimes you get a headshot.
2) While Piratez are more extreme, in vanilla you can pretty much kill everything with anything. Dioxine told me how in the original 1994 version his base was attacked by Mutons and he only had access to early weapons, because of a bug that prevented him to scroll the items on the ground to get to plasmas. So he managed to win against Mutons with rifles and cannons. It would be pretty much impossible with Gaussian distribution, at least within a reasonable time.

I'm not sure which system's advantages prevail, but I'd personally stick with what I know.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Arthanor on August 23, 2016, 09:48:08 pm
@Surrealistik/Solarius: Alright, I must have misunderstood that the comment was strictly reserved to Gaussian damage. I'm not a specialist on how it is to get shot (and how often it doesn't hurt), but as a player I intend to follow the modder's choice of damage randomness, especially since Dioxine changes it per weapon to create the experience he intends. I fully respect tweaking master mods to better fit what is enjoyable for yourself though, and I have a "Piratez tweaks" mod of my own to do that.

I used to play with the TftD damage rule for everything because I like my hits to count (it's already hard enough to hit sometimes in vanilla...). That was before I saw a comment from Dioxine on how it made low armor values useless and high armor values too good, which I agree with, so I reverted back to the 0-200%, especially for Piratez. I feel like the Gaussian damage, especially once  you reach high damage values (ex.: sniper gauss) becomes too reliable and too good. Essentially you recover the reliability of TftD damage rule, plus the value is so high that pretty much everything becomes "low armor value".

Sorry but isn't the Autocanon kinda the heavy machine gun?

I personally employ (outside of piratez in my own mod), Knives/Sword, Pistols, Shotguns, Rifles, Sniper Rifles, categorywise.
I already saw the implementations of the Heavy Machine Guns in other ModPacks, but i personally find those weapons how they are balanced to cumbersome and to uneffective.

Sorry to intrude...

No need to apologize! All able bodies are welcome in the Piratez' corner. We be equal opportunity folks! (although I've yet to see a male soldier...!)

The autocannon, as implemented in vanilla, is quite a different beast from the HMG and the like in Piratez/FMP. What you saw of HMG in "other ModPacks" (assumed to mean the FMP) is probably closer. I'm a big fan of the autocannon in Piratez, since it's got good damage, decent enough accuracy (with blast ammo) and a nice variety of ammo (personal favorite: poison gas, followed closely by HE. I wish there were chem and stun gas too!). But in Piratez the autocannon is more of a short range weapon due to its limited accurate range, whereas the HMG type weapons are for long range mayhem and damage projection (provided you can afford to risk some scatter, but not as bad as shooting a full on rocket and blasting everthing away).
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 24, 2016, 02:26:43 am
In general, the only way a bullet is going to do truly negligible damage if it connects is if it grazes you or deflects off something; the probability of this vs say a leg or body shot is substantially smaller. Gaussian distributions make way more sense than flat distributions because it accurately reflects the probability of getting fucked up by a bullet (or worse!) to the probability of not getting fucked up or say shot through the heart/brain. The only argument I can really see for linear distribution 0-2x is that of gameplay and the argument that high variability prevents armours from being too effective, but even there, Gaussian distributions are not quite like TFTD in that you can still get ridiculous extremes, but they're just less likely as opposed to outcomes being clamped to a range. From first hand experience, even with a very conservative playstyle and running full plate, I'm still eating occasional damage from las/heavy conventional weapons, including against frontal armour on tower shield gals, so those outliers are still a thing I have to consider and concern myself with.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 24, 2016, 02:51:25 am
This is all true only if we agree that accuracy model and armor model are 100% accurate, which they aren't. In normal conditions, there is no such a thing as absolute accuracy, or armor free of any weak spots. How does it relate to damage? Bear with me. While the bullet damage in real cases follows gaussian distribution, accuracy of a shot is not linear (it only can approach 1.0, never achieve it), as a gust of wind, sudden target movement, or a twitch of shooter's muscle causes an otherwise sure shot miss. Likewise, a lucky shot can score damage on an otherwise impervious target; maybe not against powered armor, which is fully enclosed, but certainly against non-powered ones. Since neither case is accounted for in the engine, flattening of the Gaussian distro of bullet damage seems to be the only way to account for them. Most no-damage shots account for actual misses, while most of hi-damage shots account for hitting a particularly weak spot.
Systems which account for this (and therefore should have Gaussian distro of projectile damage) use various tables of critical hits and critical misses, which XCom doesn't have; and, if critical hit/miss mechanics are linked directly to skill/accuracy, some sort of accuracy cap is employed (like 95% cap in Fallout).
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 24, 2016, 03:14:14 am
This is all true only if we agree that accuracy model and armor model are 100% accurate, which they aren't. In normal conditions, there is no such a thing as absolute accuracy, or armor free of any weak spots. How does it relate to damage? Bear with me. While the bullet damage in real cases follows gaussian distribution, accuracy of a shot is not linear (it only can approach 1.0, never achieve it), as a gust of wind, sudden target movement, or a twitch of shooter's muscle causes an otherwise sure shot miss. Likewise, a lucky shot can score damage on an otherwise impervious target; maybe not against powered armor, which is fully enclosed, but certainly against non-powered ones. Since neither case is accounted for in the engine, flattening of the Gaussian distro of bullet damage seems to be the only way to account for them. Most no-damage shots account for actual misses, while most of hi-damage shots account for hitting a particularly weak spot.
Systems which account for this (and therefore should have Gaussian distro of projectile damage) use various tables of critical hits and critical misses, which XCom doesn't have; and, if critical hit/miss mechanics are linked directly to skill/accuracy, some sort of accuracy cap is employed (like 95% cap in Fallout).

I'd say the Gaussian model vis a vis flat distribution accounts for the outliers of a otherwise sure shot glancing/grazing/missing or a lucky bullet through the brainpan pretty well; they're possible but _rare_ which is how it should be. Even if you want to argue that accuracy should be capped, fine, put it at 95%, 99%, 99.99%, etc... but in no way does theoretical 100%s (which aren't really) justify a flat distribution. You'll never achieve a perfect representation of reality, but Gaussian in my view cleaves closer to IRL than flat distributions, even relative to the context of the other mechanics.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 24, 2016, 03:55:32 am
You'll never achieve a perfect representation of reality, but Gaussian in my view cleaves closer to IRL than flat distributions, even relative to the context of the other mechanics.

In contrast, I think the critical fail/success elements weigh on the model enough for gritty linear damage distro to be closer to reality than idealized Gaussian damage distro.
Since the mod was supposed to be rather gritty than idealized, there's no counterweight to support the idealized approach. However I'm not telling anyone how to play - I can only tell how the mod is supposed to be played.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 24, 2016, 04:00:26 am
In contrast, I think the critical fail/success elements weigh on the model enough for gritty linear damage distro to be closer to reality than idealized Gaussian damage distro.
Since the mod was supposed to be rather gritty than idealized, there's no counterweight to support the idealized approach. However I'm not telling anyone how to play - I can only tell how the mod is supposed to be played.

What's idealized about it exactly? And how is a model which says that a brain buster is as likely as a body shot closer to reality than a model which says the former is significantly less probable than the latter? Even if your issue is with perfect accuracy not being a thing, that's a separate issue with a separate solution.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 24, 2016, 04:09:13 am
What's idealized about it exactly? And how is a model which says that a brain buster is as likely as a body shot closer to reality than a model which says the former is significantly less probable than the latter? Even if your issue is with perfect accuracy not being a thing, that's a separate issue with a separate solution.

I've explained it 2 posts ago, so I won't repeat myself.
However -
If faced with a problem of reality not conforming to a model, you can do any combination of the following:
- Abstract the known and unknown unknows away, using a rough function, based on a rule of thumb that more or less accounts for all problems (the direction I favor in this case)
- Try to get closer to reality, by summoning new, more accurate models. This will give you a more accurate model, but you have to travel paths of ever-increasing complexity. Sometimes it's needed, sometimes it's not.
- Ignore a set of problems to idealize the model towards some perceived elegance.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 24, 2016, 04:19:59 am
I can see you feel you have explained it, and that you favour the first case while assuming I'm all about the third rather than vice versa, but that is not at all the case.

Gaussian is the rough, albeit imperfect summation and abstraction that addresses all problems; alternately it's number two if you feel that an accuracy cap is required, thus requiring a small additional step/level complexity to the solution.

Flat ignores an obvious and glaring problem with all injury outcomes not being anywhere close to equally probable for the sake of (excess) simplicity, based on an erroneous assumption that this somehow compensates for the potential for perfect accuracy. Personally I think the reality is you just love the RNG too much to let it go.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 24, 2016, 06:53:22 am
I can see you feel you have explained it, and that you favour the first case while assuming I'm all about the third rather than vice versa, but that is not at all the case.

I never said that much. I could, but it isn't so simple as that; that's why I said it's always a combination of these three ways. Also, you may, naturally, discard my explanations.

Gaussian is the rough, albeit imperfect summation and abstraction that addresses all problems; alternately it's number two if you feel that an accuracy cap is required, thus requiring a small additional step/level complexity to the solution.

Only assuming you sweep all the irregularities that effectively flatten the curve (to some degree) under the carpet. In the wider context, Gaussian is idealized, as it assumes that when a bullet hits, it hits more or less true. It makes a clear distinction between target and environment, which is also idealization.
Also, Gaussian, rough? Just look at the function. It's perfect, round and symetric. Not that drab and boring flat line :P

Flat ignores an obvious and glaring problem with all injury outcomes not being anywhere close to equally probable for the sake of (excess) simplicity, based on an erroneous assumption that this somehow compensates for the potential for perfect accuracy. Personally I think the reality is you just love the RNG too much to let it go.

Woo, the Master Psychologist and Love Counsellor in action! Are you interested in mechanics, or people? Since if the latter, there is nothing to discuss.
As for your obvious and glaring problem - yes, flat 'ignores' it, because it puts the whole affair in a wider context than just simply 'you got a direct hit by a bullet'. So the goal is to abstract the problem away, not to simplify it. It is imperfect by far, but going deeper would require adding mechanics for critical fails and critical successes.
Also, what error is in my assumption that chaotic events flatten the Gauss distro? I've seen no reply to that. Research into chaos had shown that unlikely outcomes are far more likely than they should be. Eg. for reasons unknown, our Moon has far more large craters, as compared to smaller ones, than you could expect, basing it on standard distribution. That's the reality, not your futile and insulting lust for finding out how does my brain tick.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 24, 2016, 08:05:08 am
You keep saying that vague irregularities flatten the curve assuming you get hit by a bullet but you've yet to really demonstrate that this is the case.

I separate this out into two clear components: Accuracy, the probability of actually hitting, and Outcome, the probability of what happens when you actually get hit.

Accuracy should probably have a bearing on Outcome (like accuracy above 100% granting a bonus to damage for example) as it makes more advantageous Outcomes more likely. Barring called shots/especial aim, you generally get hit in accordance with whatever features the most surface area, which typically means the chest/torso. Gaussian models this contingency better than flat because flat assumes a graze or a headshot or a footshot is equally as likely as a body shot; it is not. Where does the flattening come into effect? The adverse conditions that weigh upon Accuracy that the game doesn't quite account for (outside of injury)? Gaussian can be argued to factor those in as well. Yes, you might be tired/distracted/etc, causing your aim to go awry, but ultimately a body shot is still much more likely than a headshot, and it is much better to represent these factors, if you must, by impacting Accuracy itself rather than distorting Outcome in such an untenable way and calling it a representative abstraction as opposed to a verisimilitude defying horror.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: HelmetHair on August 24, 2016, 08:44:22 am
Removed for conscious flamebaiting - Dioxine
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: hellrazor on August 24, 2016, 09:41:46 am
I actually only wanted to know what kind of purpose Heavy Machine Guns could have in openxcom, but ok i think someone is not understanding the difference between a mod and the game enginge.
Regarding this  Accuracy OpenXcom (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Accuracy_formula)

Regarding Damage look here (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Damage)
I do not understand the argument you both have, since in openycom we have clear explanations and well known formulas.
So back to my original idea how is the tactical purpose and usage of hmg? And coulf a implementatiin look??
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 24, 2016, 09:53:29 am
I actually only wanted to know what kind of purpose Heavy Machine Guns could have in openxcom, but ok i think someone is not understanding the difference between a mod and the game enginge.
Regarding this  Accuracy OpenXcom (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Accuracy_formula)

Regarding Damage look here (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Damage)
I do not understand the argument you both have, since in openycom we have clear explanations and well known formulas.
So back to my original idea how is the tactical purpose and usage of hmg? And coulf a implementatiin look??

Our argument is over whether a gaussian multiplier for damage is more representative of RL than the typical 0-2x flat modifier; we both understand how accuracy and damage are calculated by the engine.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: hellrazor on August 24, 2016, 10:17:58 am
A Gaussian curve ... istick with random.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 24, 2016, 10:20:01 am
They're both random.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 24, 2016, 03:22:00 pm
I don't think you can safely make the assumption that a hit to the body is the most likely outcome, considering that the game models the hitbox as a cylinder; 100% accuracy is hitting within the target's tile/cylinder.  A Gaussian distribution would be great if you knew exactly where you hit on the target, as a given projectile and velocity does have an expected amount of tissue damage it will inflict.  But then we have to make a distinction of what you hit, as you'd expect different amounts of damage for multiple body parts.  To account for that, we could make a damage distribution for each body part.  The result is that any given bullet falling within the cylinder of the hitbox will fall on one of these distributions - if for simplicity's sake we want to make only one roll for damage, the amount done will have a probability distribution that looks like a weighted sum over many Gaussian distributions, each with a different mean and standard deviation.  The final distribution is flatter than a Gaussian, and while it may be biased toward the body shot result, the width of the distribution would look much more like the flat case.

The point is, short of coding in better hit detection - body vs limbs vs head, influenced by firing accuracy - or adding in some method of critical hit/miss, a single Gaussian alone is a gross oversimplification based on a very particular set of assumptions.  Flat is a great simplification too, but Gaussian is too elegant, clean, and symmetric for something as messy as RL combat.

Now if you average over many flat damage rolls, that does start to look more Gaussian - this was more the route gone by the reboots; you never just fire a single shot from that assault rifle, and you can probably assume your sniper is hitting center of mass.  Critical hits and kill shots are even animated as hitting the head.

Edit: @Surrealistik  The likely reason you're getting so much flak over the suggesting switching the mod to Gaussian damage model is that it is balanced for the flat distribution, and making the switch means each weapon has to be looked at compared to armor values, and one or both would have to be changed, for some ~300 weapons/ammunition types and ~50+ armors.  This is a massive amount of work for Dioxine, who'd probably rather spend the time implementing new features.  The other option would be a change to the executable such that no rebalance is necessary - adding critical hits/misses, some manner of firing accuracy influencing where you hit on target, or implementing a Gaussian distribution with added probability in the tails to account for headshots/deflections, which would be more work for Meridian, who is busy with coding in other new features.  If you really want Gaussian distributions to be the norm, I'd suggest trying to mod in the balance yourself, or make a fork of OXCE+ to test out how to make it a better model.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: HelmetHair on August 24, 2016, 04:50:46 pm
Sol,

I'd like over penetration. It could be a great mechanic for some weapons etc... as well as an explanation as why sometimes bullets don't kill... they simply wound and over penetrate.

This happens quite a bit with rifle rounds to extremities like 7.62x39 where it zips on through without really doing structural damage, but a shit load of soft tissue damage.

Also, 7.62x39 goes through bones creating a butterfly break. Look it up its pretty neat in a medical sense.

Not to mention terrain definitions could be wonderful. Tin building... awful cover. Miss a shot?  Well it could kill a cookie.

Plasma weapons equal huge penetration values I would think. Considering a 200 amp plasma cutter can blow through a 7/8 inch(13ish mm) of steel like butter.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Arthanor on August 24, 2016, 07:12:52 pm
the amount done will have a probability distribution that looks like a weighted sum over many Gaussian distributions, each with a different mean and standard deviation.  The final distribution is flatter than a Gaussian, and while it may be biased toward the body shot result, the width of the distribution would look much more like the flat case.

[...]

Now if you average over many flat damage rolls, that does start to look more Gaussian

That is a great way of putting both why flat makes more sense for single shots and why autoshots are more reliable. Nicely done :) I could see sniper rifles being given a gaussian damage distribution on single hits, to show that the sniper is more likely to hit significant parts (do average damage), but that also reduces the odds of a sniper doing critical damage (odds of a 200% damage roll are smaller with gaussian than with flat). Presumably, something like a switched log-normal distribution (peaking on the high-side instead of low-side) would be best for snipers. For other weapons that are not as accurate as sniper fire, flat is fine.

@HelmetHair:
Over penetration would be cool, especially shooting through some obstacles/thin walls. I'm not sure about plasma though. As a gas of super heated particle, a plasma bolt has little momentum, it just has a LOT of energy.  Because it lacks the momentum to punch through and instead delivers 100% of the energy on the first thing hit (that's why cutters go through steel, they apply the energy locally and melt the steel. Firing a bit of plasma would melt whatever it touches, make a big whole that allows you to see through, but it wouldn't go through). It even makes sense as a weapon for genetically engineered super soldiers: They hit what they mean to hit, so they need a weapon that deals the most damage to what is hit, no wasting by overpenetration.

To me, Gauss would be the best penetrator (since its energy is purely kinetic, no explosive/heat), whereas plasma would be the best first hit damage. Regular ammo and laser would be the lower tech pair of penetration vs first hit damage.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 24, 2016, 09:00:35 pm
Edit: @Surrealistik  The likely reason you're getting so much flak over the suggesting switching the mod to Gaussian damage model is that it is balanced for the flat distribution, and making the switch means each weapon has to be looked at compared to armor values, and one or both would have to be changed, for some ~300 weapons/ammunition types and ~50+ armors. 

No, that's not it. Comparing it to the work I've done on the mod already? Nothing, nothing at all. He's getting flak for the tendency to treat people like they were his personal bitches.
The reasons - well, your extended explanation covers the accuracy aspect in more detail than mine did. But it basically amounts to what I said. Gaussian distro ignores the reality of imperfect accuracy model, a reality better accounted for by a flat distribution model.

@Helmethair: you're conveniently forgetting that plasma cutters have a range counted in centimetres at best. The issue of plasma WEAPON overpenetration would largely depend on how it manages to deliver plasma to the target without discharging it in all directions just off the barrel's end.

@Hellrazor: the purpose of HMG is multiple, accurate, high-damage fire, at the price of having to deploy it in the place a turn before. It is naturally in most ways inferior to rocket launcher, as it was designed as a lower-tier weapon.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Arthanor on August 24, 2016, 09:15:08 pm
No, that's not it. He's getting flak for the tendency to treat people like they were his personal bitches.
The reasons - well, your extended explanation covers the accuracy aspect in more detail than mine did. But it basically amounts to what I said. Gaussian distro ignores the reality of imperfect accuracy model, a reality better accounted for by a flat distribution model.
lol When it's not calling me stupid/lazy (which luckily doesn't happen too often), your honesty is quite entertaining.

Quote
@Helmethair: you're conveniently forgetting that plasma cutters have a range counted in centimetres at best. The issue of plasma WEAPON overpenetration would largely depend on how it manages to deliver plasma to the target without discharging it in all directions just off the barrel's end.

Plasma containment fields, of course! Whatever that is...

And/or ways to spin the plasma such that it forms a self-containing magnetic field. Or maybe the aliens have found a way to use dark matter/energy to bind the plasma together (ex.: you fire a bullet of dark matter at the enemy, which in itself does nothing but make them feel queasy because of the gravity disturbance, but said gravity is enough to keep the plasma together. In reality, doesn't work since gravity wouldn't be able to fight the pressure unless it's approaching black hole density, at which point you might as well make a "micro black hole" gun! Indeed, plasma sounds dangerous until you realize how volatile it is, but it's part of the cannon so we gotta find a way to make up some techno-babble that makes it sound good enough to non-physicists.

Quote
@Hellrazor: the purpose of HMG is multiple, accurate, high-damage fire, at the price of having to deploy it in the place a turn before. It is naturally in most ways inferior to rocket launcher, as it was designed as a lower-tier weapon.
HMGs also have the huge advantage of not blowing up loot/corpses/civilians unless a stray shot hits them (which is relatively unlikely, compared to the assured destruction of being near a rocket launcher blast). With high accuracy soldiers, it is a much safer alternative to a rocket. And it is also cheaper per shot. (until you get destroyer outfit and spam big mind fueled 'splosions!)
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 24, 2016, 09:28:08 pm
Can't we just have Gaussian distribution as a mod (extremely easy to do) and let people play as they like?
I really don't understand this little private war. This is not how it's supposed to look like, it doesn't lead to understanding or problem resolution. *stares disapprovingly in Polish*
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 24, 2016, 09:59:15 pm
@oharthstein: The product of multiple gaussians (i.e. the gaussian curve of each body part's damage multipliers whose probabilities are further modified by their location, with the torso probabilities having the highest probability multiplier and head the lowest) is gaussian. Further I very much doubt that this convolution of gaussians in terms of damage outcomes would more closely resemble a perfectly flat line than a gaussian curve, even if the curve is somewhat flattened.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 24, 2016, 10:13:14 pm
... that's not how the math works.  A linear combination of Gaussian curves, each with a different mean value, does not result in another Gaussian.  Convolution would have nothing to do with it either.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 24, 2016, 10:20:56 pm
As in they coalesce around certain probabilities which are more likely than others, and this is reflected by the subsequent shape (which may not represent a bell curve, yes, this is apparent).

When you convolute/combine the shapes of those gaussian distributions, you would not get something that more closely resembles a flat line than a gaussian distribution.

I understand that people often like to be pedantic when talking about such things, but I feel the gist of what I was saying was pretty clear.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 24, 2016, 10:24:47 pm
Here's a simple version of this model: let's assume you're using a 50 power base weapon, and that 50 is the mean damage it'll do on a shot to the body.  Let's add two more curves, one for a headshot with base damage 75, and one for a limb shot, with a base damage of 25.  Let's also say that when you hit, there is a 40% chance to hit a limb, 40% chance to hit the torso, and 20% chance to hit the head.  The resulting probability distribution function is the linear sum of three Gaussians - in the figure I've attached, it's obvious that this result is not a Gaussian function, and is much more flat.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 24, 2016, 10:27:28 pm
See above.

I clearly acknowledge that the combination is not going to represent a bell curve; however it resembles one (an elongated one, but nonetheless) more than it does a flat line to be sure, which makes the gaussian solution better.

Also what program did you use to generate that graph? Standard excel or something else?
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 24, 2016, 10:31:09 pm
I used Octave to create the figure - it's an open source version of MATLAB.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 24, 2016, 10:35:38 pm
The problem is that it doesn't take much fiddling with the model to make it more resemble flat than bell-shaped, especially when you take into account more possible ways to hit.  Even as is, this function is described neither very well by Gaussian or flat distributions (metric: multiplying the probability distribution by one of the two possibilities we're arguing about and integrating over all possible damage values).  It really depends on what we want to model which one is better; the Gaussian picks up the centered-ness of our curve, but the flat is much better at describing the variance.  And making it more like real-life (i.e. adding more possible hit locations) is just going to flatten this more.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 24, 2016, 10:42:28 pm
You can tinker the inputs to skew the shape in any direction (pro-gaussian/pro-flat) you see fit, yes.

However a reasonable set of inputs with respect to probability of hitting + gaussian distribution of multipliers will ultimately lean gaussian more than flat, because reality itself tends more towards gaussian than flat outcomes when bullet casualties for example, are examined.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Yankes on August 24, 2016, 11:00:49 pm
You can tinker the inputs to skew the shape in any direction (pro-gaussian/pro-flat) you see fit, yes.

However a reasonable set of inputs with respect to probability of hitting + gaussian distribution of multipliers will ultimately lean gaussian more than flat, because reality itself tends more towards gaussian than flat outcomes when bullet casualties for example, are examined.
multiple flat distribution get avenge to gaussian distribution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 24, 2016, 11:11:50 pm
multiple flat distribution get avenge to gaussian distribution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem

For sure; that's the entire principle behind say rolling two dice; the two flat outcomes result in a gaussian one.

If you're trying to argue though that gun shot wound has flat variability IRL which culminates in the appearance of gaussian casualties over many iterations, I disagree. While there's no doubt that gun shot severity can vary greatly, on the whole, if you get hit with a bullet, you're much more likely than not to suffer substantial if not serious injury (while your odds of survival are significantly greater than death excepting certain firearm classes like shotguns, so J curving is improbable). A bunch of gaussian outcomes can also arrive at a gaussian outcome just as many flat outcomes average out to one.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 24, 2016, 11:49:17 pm
Let's look at some data then:

The first paper I've attached looks at wounds to the limbs - if we abstract the length of hospital stay into the amount of damage done (just like the in-game model for wound recovery time), we see their results have a mean stay of 11.9 days, a range of 2 - 48, and a median of 8.  This is much more skewed towards towards shorter hospital stays, more like an exponentially decaying probability distribution, or a Poisson distribution.

On the other hand, a bullet penetrating the skull is fatal within 48 hours in ~75% of cases. https://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNINJ.html (https://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNINJ.html)

Finally, we can look at the distribution of where non-fatal injuries occur on the body: https://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a570804.pdf (https://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a570804.pdf).  This might not be quite as accurate for people trained in firearm use and aiming for center of mass, but the data shows a heavy skew towards what we would categorize in-game as low-damage shots.

If we take body shots as an intermediate between these cases, then we can re-evaluate the categories I used for my previous figure:  we leave the body shot damage as the Gaussian distribution, the headshot distribution becomes sharper and with a higher mean, and the limb shots should start at near 0 damage and decay with a long tail towards higher damage.  The properly weighted and summed distribution would have three peaks - one near zero, one skewed towards very high damage, and one in the center.  While not anywhere near flat, the Gaussian alone does not capture the very high and very low peaks at all.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Arthanor on August 25, 2016, 12:38:26 am
Nice work with the figures, ohartenstein23!

Indeed, the sum of multiple linear distributions gives a more gaussian distribution (ex.: sum of multiple dice). It is very interesting to note (and see in those figures) that the sum of multiple gaussians lean towards the linear.

In fact, in that second figure, if we consider shots under 30 damage to be all equally useless (because of some armor on the target) and shots above 80 to be equally deadly (50 hp + 30 armor), the effective curve becomes even more flat as one can just use the "average probability of hitting under 30" for all points under 30, the "average probability of hitting above 80" for all points above 80.

You'd have to add pretty much identical distributions or have such a dominating one as to make the others pretty much irrelevant to still get a gaussian-like one.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 25, 2016, 01:43:17 am
You need to include recovery times  (which tends to be significantly longer) as well as hospitalization times.

For example, total recovery (such that the person is capable of work, nevermind combat) averaged 65.7 days, while hospitalization averaged only 13.2 days: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17626461
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 25, 2016, 01:49:45 am
You need to give a credible reason why a single Gaussian encapsulates all the complexity of an individual bullet wound - adding in longer recovery times for light wounds to the real data just means the low-damage peak is slightly higher, not really changing the shape of the distribution.

You have convinced us that you believe the Gaussian model is best for how you play the game, but have not presented any data why it should be the default for others.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 25, 2016, 02:12:08 am
My point is that considering only the hospitalization time can be distortive (for example, the hospitalization time for a superficial gunshot injury to a serious one might be comparable or only slightly different with both requiring surgery, but the recovery time for the latter might be far more substantial). If one were to judge wound severity (which is what really counts here, locational considerations are secondary/irrelevant) exclusively by hospitalization times, you may end up with inaccurate outcomes when compared to a better measure that captures the harm inflicted more faithfully.

I'm attempting to find good data concerning max, min, median and average full recovery times for generalized gunshot wounds as well as distributions/charts, etc.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 26, 2016, 06:17:31 am
Just don't forget that it isn't just any Gaussian distro we're discussing. It's flatline vs. sum of 2 dice rolls. The latter gives barely ca. 2% chance of rolling under or equal 20% damage (negligible damage, either 0 or at least no Fatal Wounds, for 30-40 weapons' power, against unarmored target). This is far lower than even the traditional 5-10% 'something went wrong' chance used in many systems, like Fallout or Warhammer Role Play.
Balancing of armors so they're neither worthless nor overpowered, by the rule of thumb, makes an armor semi-safe if it stops around 80% hits. Against a weapon with 50 power, that requires 80 armor (xcom), 65 armor (tftd) or 67 armor (gaussian 2dice). The range where armor is semi-immune but penetrable clearly expands, which is a good thing. However, the range between half-resistant and semi-immune contracts, which is a worse thing, since in a semi-immune armor, the penetrating damage would be laughable anyway, unless we get into high-end weapon territory.
Medical data alone is not enough to cover all this, since we're discussing armor as well.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: HelmetHair on August 26, 2016, 07:20:42 pm

@Helmethair: you're conveniently forgetting that plasma cutters have a range counted in centimetres at best. The issue of plasma WEAPON overpenetration would largely depend on how it manages to deliver plasma to the target without discharging it in all directions just off the barrel's end.


I forgot? No, can't say that I did. You are making an assumption. I didn't mention it and used an application example without going into the absolute minutiae of things like conduction path, gas composition, voltage, amperage, transistor type, arc start method, and generation design. Why? because that would be boring, and you wouldn't understand.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 26, 2016, 08:49:18 pm
Just don't forget that it isn't just any Gaussian distro we're discussing. It's flatline vs. sum of 2 dice rolls. The latter gives barely ca. 2% chance of rolling under or equal 20% damage (negligible damage, either 0 or at least no Fatal Wounds, for 30-40 weapons' power, against unarmored target). This is far lower than even the traditional 5-10% 'something went wrong' chance used in many systems, like Fallout or Warhammer Role Play.
Balancing of armors so they're neither worthless nor overpowered, by the rule of thumb, makes an armor semi-safe if it stops around 80% hits. Against a weapon with 50 power, that requires 80 armor (xcom), 65 armor (tftd) or 67 armor (gaussian 2dice). The range where armor is semi-immune but penetrable clearly expands, which is a good thing. However, the range between half-resistant and semi-immune contracts, which is a worse thing, since in a semi-immune armor, the penetrating damage would be laughable anyway, unless we get into high-end weapon territory.
Medical data alone is not enough to cover all this, since we're discussing armor as well.

Medical data to determine the actual outcome of getting shot by a gun with severity measured by total recovery time is a pretty good place to start.

Armour is pretty much impossible to include if we're trying to come to conclusions based off data, because the only armour we have data for is pretty much tactical vests/tactical armour; power armour? Forget it. Projectile types like plasma also are impossible to get data for. Ultimately we really have only ballistic and cutting/stabbing injuries to work with.


Speaking of which, I am finding it immensely difficult to find good info in terms of sample size and scope about total recovery times that's not behind some kind of paywall.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: HelmetHair on August 26, 2016, 11:45:11 pm
Do you have a library card? If you live in the U.S. it is trivial. Unless it is a vanity pay press... then all bets are off.

Ship me a nicely formatted list of every title, author and edition of works you want that is behind a pay wall. Make sure you have all of the identifiers I would need... sound same authors and titles can be a bitch.

Regards,

-HH
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 26, 2016, 11:54:59 pm
Haha, I'm definitely not going to go down to a reference/academic library to do research for this.

I'll look into compiling that list though.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 27, 2016, 06:43:04 am
Explosive Satchel should have enough explosive power to effectively breach a UFO hull (would be especially nice if the explosion was more concentrated than such a blast would otherwise normally be). This thing is way too large and heavy for its power and utility.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ivandogovich on August 27, 2016, 08:12:21 am
Explosive Satchel should have enough explosive power to effectively breach a UFO hull (would be especially nice if the explosion was more concentrated than such a blast would otherwise normally be). This thing is way too large and heavy for its power and utility.

There is a nuclear satchel later that has this power.  You have Fusion Torches from almost the start for Breaching so there is no need for the original satchel to breach.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 27, 2016, 08:17:07 am
There is a nuclear satchel later that has this power.  You have Fusion Torches from almost the start for Breaching so there is no need for the original satchel to breach.

Either way this thing is pretty useless. Reducing its weight and/or size would be a good alternative if the power cannot be increased to that extent.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 27, 2016, 03:02:06 pm
Yeah, agreed that the thing is probably no good. I'm not using it myself. Explosives that can't really be thrown seem to be of not much use in this game. It has always been an experimental item, to check if such a concept is OP or completely worthless.

I forgot? No, can't say that I did. You are making an assumption. I didn't mention it and used an application example without going into the absolute minutiae of things like conduction path, gas composition, voltage, amperage, transistor type, arc start method, and generation design. Why? because that would be boring, and you wouldn't understand.

WTF are you blabbering about? I didn't suggest that you literally forgot, because how the fuck would I know that? I rather suggested that you knew well but conveniently omited that fact, if that REALLY needs explaining to anyone who's smart. I was only referring to the basic "logic" of your message:
Plasma cutters are good at cutting metal THEREFORE plasma weapons would have great overpenetration capacity.
With the same logic I could say that water guns would be awesome since water cutters are good at cutting metal too.
I merely suggested that there's no way we can equal performance of a cutter to a performance of a long-range weapon, especially having no agreement on how the latter even works.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 27, 2016, 08:31:09 pm
Yeah, agreed that the thing is probably no good. I'm not using it myself. Explosives that can't really be thrown seem to be of not much use in this game. It has always been an experimental item, to check if such a concept is OP or completely worthless.

If it could blow UFO walls, it'd be decent as an early breaching tool, otherwise it needs to be smaller or less weighty such that it can be thrown.

If it could be remotely detonated (I really hope we get this functionality), that might also make it useful.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: HelmetHair on August 27, 2016, 08:58:46 pm

WTF are you blabbering about? I didn't suggest that you literally forgot, because how the fuck would I know that? I rather suggested that you knew well but conveniently omited that fact, if that REALLY needs explaining to anyone who's smart. I was only referring to the basic "logic" of your message:
Plasma cutters are good at cutting metal THEREFORE plasma weapons would have great overpenetration capacity.
With the same logic I could say that water guns would be awesome since water cutters are good at cutting metal too.
I merely suggested that there's no way we can equal performance of a cutter to a performance of a long-range weapon, especially having no agreement on how the latter even works.

You are absolutely correct. Aliens favor efficiency and overpenetration would be waste and not within alien doctrine.

Sorry, language barrier. I don't like you personally and I think you act like an asshole. However, I am by all objective measurement also an asshole...so whatever. That's not to say I don't beleive you are talented and do very good work...but you are an asshole....and I don't like you, but would quite willing to buy you alcohol and fight...it's tradition.

I'll get a handle on it, eventually.

I really should stop driking and posting.

 :o
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: khade on August 27, 2016, 09:11:37 pm
Maybe what the satchel charge needs is a catapult  :)

Careful with the handle, while it's a good way to make friends, it does hurt.   ;D
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 27, 2016, 09:17:00 pm
Blowing up UFO walls would be too much, really. It'd completely invalidate the super-cumbersome plasma cutter too. For now, I've dropped the weight from 15 to 12 and added some armor damage.

Sorry, language barrier. I don't like you personally and I think you act like an asshole. However, I am by all objective measurement also an asshole...so whatever. That's not to say I don't beleive you are talented and do very good work...but you are an asshole....and I don't like you, but would quite willing to buy you alcohol and fight...it's tradition.

Likewise. I have no idea if you're an asshole or not, but your posts are sure infuriating :) As for me, yeah, I'm not a good person.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: HelmetHair on August 28, 2016, 11:32:54 am
bad behavior doesn't make a person bad.... I hope. but seriously you are not a bad person... you've brought so much joy and frustration to me and many others through your work.

I think that is like major good karma.

regards

-HH
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Star_Treasure on August 29, 2016, 06:57:24 am
Gauss weapons should have Gaussian damage, normal weapons should not.

Rather than being a higher tier of weapons, Gaus weapons are just weapons for people who like Gaussian distributions. There everyone is happy.  :P
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 29, 2016, 07:38:57 am
More seriously I think Gauss should be overhauled to be the definitive 'armor penetrating' weapon.

Namely it ignores 50% armour (and maybe some Piercing resistance), but deals less damage.

If possible it would also be able to penetrate walls in the following manner:

#1: Gauss projectile connects with wall.
#2: Effective HP for purposes of determining whether or not it is destroyed is reduced by armour pen % (50). Gauss projectile damage is then applied to the wall.
#3: If the Gauss projectile destroys the wall, the post reduction HP per #3 is deducted from its damage. The projectile then continues on its merry way until all of its damage is absorbed by walls/targets.

The same process is applied versus a target: If the Gauss projectile overkills the target, it continues to travel after deducting the target's remaining health from the damage.


For example, a Gauss Musket deals 70 Piercing. It encounters a 60 HP wall. The wall's effective HP is reduced by the Gauss Musket's armour pen of 50% to 30 HP. The wall takes 70 damage and is destroyed. The wall's effective HP of 30 is deducted from the Gauss Musket projectile's power, reducing it to 40, and the projectile continues moving until it strikes and kills a Researcher with 30 remaining HP. The projectile's power is reduced by the Researcher's HP from 40 to 10, and continues to move until it hits a brick wall with 40 HP and fails to penetrate its effective 20 HP with 10 power remaining.


Basically you have Gauss weapons not unlike those awesome ones from Eraser, that are effectively inverse shotguns: most effective against low HP, heavily armoured targets, least effective against high HP low armour targets.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 29, 2016, 03:36:45 pm
Gauss weapons should have Gaussian damage, normal weapons should not.

Rather than being a higher tier of weapons, Gaus weapons are just weapons for people who like Gaussian distributions. There everyone is happy.  :P

Thinking about it, I see that if any weapons should follow gaussian distro, it should be plasma weapons, due to plasma's explosive nature. I'm reluctant to beef them in such a way, but I see no principled obstacles against it. Do we do gaussian plasma?
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 29, 2016, 03:44:45 pm
And make it even more scary when it shows up before you have appropriate armor ready?  Of course.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Arthanor on August 29, 2016, 08:42:39 pm
Gauss weapons should have Gaussian damage, normal weapons should not.

Rather than being a higher tier of weapons, Gaus weapons are just weapons for people who like Gaussian distributions. There everyone is happy.  :P

That was lol worthy, thank you.

Gaussian Gauss weapons
Thinking about it, I see that if any weapons should follow gaussian distro, it should be plasma weapons, due to plasma's explosive nature. I'm reluctant to beef them in such a way, but I see no principled obstacles against it. Do we do gaussian plasma?

Plasma weapons would be a great candidate for this conceptually. Doesn't matter if it's your foot or your head that's hit by plasma, the incredible heat/shock-wave generated by being point blank where the containment field fails and releases the plasma should be deadly. Having your head a body-length away shouldn't be enough. It would also help high-end armor stand up to it by reducing the odds of tail-end high damage killing gals outright.

I do agree with ohartenstein23 though, that this would make hideout defences even more deadly until proper plasma protection is developed. But that might not be a bad thing, force-field type armors are quite undervalued currently due to the low armor value and how common piercing type weapons are, so making plasma more reliably deadly would make these more attractive as base defense outfits. I used to value the enhanced smokey armor with some shooting buff and forcefields for base defenses on my first playthrough, but now assassin armor has replaced it since smoke isn't as much of an issue and assassin has much better stats. If you kill them first, they can't kill you, usually.

As for Gauss getting buffed, I disagree. Lasers are the designated armor piercers already (with ~ -30% armor) and Gauss is the "high damage, brute force, unrefined" weapon (thus fitting well with Mercs).
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 29, 2016, 08:56:15 pm
As for Gauss getting buffed, I disagree. Lasers are the designated armor piercers already (with ~ -30% armor) and Gauss is the "high damage, brute force, unrefined" weapon (thus fitting well with Mercs).

That's more the purview of plasma.

I get that laser kind of has this niche with several of its weapons, but that said, gauss is going to tread on either plasma's toes, or laser's toes, and in balance it makes more sense for gauss to lean towards armour pen than brute force. Laser is early-mid game armour pen (excepting outliers like the Lascannon), gauss is mid-late game armour pen, just as plasma is the mid-late brute force counterpart to early-mid shotguns and conventional heavy weapons.

Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 29, 2016, 09:30:53 pm
Lol your reality-bending skills are getting rusty :) it's ridiculous to claim that Gauss is any kind of counterpart to Plasma, with Plasma requiring a ton of research to use, while Gauss being equippable off the first dead enemy who was carrying it. Gauss is a direct counterpart to laser, actually (well you can't make gauss ammo but you can farm it perhaps even easier than laser ammo).
There is a niche for solid slug armor-piercers, but it's not the Gauss that will fit that bill.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Surrealistik on August 29, 2016, 09:40:46 pm
Lol your reality-bending skills are getting rusty :) it's ridiculous to claim that Gauss is any kind of counterpart to Plasma, with Plasma requiring a ton of research to use, while Gauss being equippable off the first dead enemy who was carrying it. Gauss is a direct counterpart to laser, actually (well you can't make gauss ammo but you can farm it perhaps even easier than laser ammo).
There is a niche for solid slug armor-piercers, but it's not the Gauss that will fit that bill.

I didn't say anything remotely like Gauss was a counterpart to Plasma; I said that Gauss/Railgun style weapons make more sense as a step up from lasers as mid-late armour penetrating weaponry, than a step down from Plasma as mid-late brute force weaponry.

That said, Gauss/Railgun weaponry as is definitely cleaves closer to Plasma than Lasers in terms of power and overall effectiveness.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: KateMicucci on August 30, 2016, 06:49:49 pm
Rippers, chainsaws autoax and fusion torches should have the highly random damage property so that they can still get through walls on TFTD settings.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 30, 2016, 07:02:22 pm
Afaik the global tftd setting does nothing now. Also, 'highly random damage' only means that the weapon uses UFO, not TFTD setting, despite being a melee weapon.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: KateMicucci on August 30, 2016, 07:24:01 pm
Ok. I thought that highly random damage attribute meant that it used the UFO formula even if the player had set the game to TFTD damage. I haven't played the newest version yet but noticed that rippers could cut through mansion walls on UFO settings but not TFTD settings.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 30, 2016, 07:27:55 pm
So I was wrong, but I'm only repeating hearsay - I never tested the global TFTD damage setting as it holds no interest to me. It goes down like this: weapons which are intended to use UFO damage have the damage roll undefined (no extra line), to use default rules, so probably the TFTD global rule changes it. Melee weapons in general have forced TFTD damage rules. I could also force UFO damage rule on all weapons with undefined damage rule, but that's a lot of, I think unneccessary, work.
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: KateMicucci on August 30, 2016, 07:36:32 pm
Do the 1 tile range weapons like ripper count as "melee" weapons for the purpose of applying the TFTD formula by default?
Title: Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
Post by: Dioxine on August 30, 2016, 07:45:50 pm
These all are using the default damage formula (which normally is UFO), while real melee weapons (like swords) always use TFTD damage formula.