OpenXcom Forum
Modding => Released Mods => XPiratez => Topic started by: Surrealistik on July 28, 2016, 09:50:54 am
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GQK-BSID0jsuthiUQmC7Sq1mW-JJXQYt6pqcH3GQRP8/edit?usp=sharing
If you scroll down, you will see this proposal includes special abilities such as regeneration, spitting (spitting creates zombies when it would kill a human target, but that zombie is sterile; it however, will only utilize this when it can't pathfind to a target), invisibility, and a new UFOpaedia entry for the interrogation and autopsy.
Essentially the Alpha Chryssalid is a weaponized version of the Chryssalid species the Star Gods devised after getting frustrated by all the usual countermeasures to the creature. You would probably find these in small numbers on Terror Ships/Cruisers/Hideouts.
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Personally I think what would make them great again is if their self-preservation instinct stopped being so dominant over the urge to procreate. It does not help them at all.
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Personally I think what would make them great again is if their self-preservation instinct stopped being so dominant over the urge to procreate. It does not help them at all.
Setting aggression to 2 would be a start.
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Personally I think what would make them great again is if their self-preservation instinct stopped being so dominant over the urge to procreate. It does not help them at all.
True, though flying still makes them laughable ASF.
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If you like download my Mod and slap on a New Battle snakeman Terror mission.
I exclusively use aggression: 2 for chryssalids so they will charge you and all civilians nearby.
The Modname is "Hardmode_Expansion" more Info's can be found Hardmode_Expansion (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,3550.0.html)
They will kick your asses!
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True, though flying still makes them laughable ASF.
Chryssalid Spitters will teach you that they still can zombify you :P
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Yeah Hellrazor's Chryssalid Spitters are around for a long time. But I don't know if this mod is the right place for upgraded Chryssalids, and even if so, this would need a special mission/deployment/other kind of complex work. Upgraded Chryssalids are on my 'maybe?' list for a year or 2 already.
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Yeah Hellrazor's Chryssalid Spitters are around for a long time. But I don't know if this mod is the right place for upgraded Chryssalids, and even if so, this would need a special mission/deployment/other kind of complex work. Upgraded Chryssalids are on my 'maybe?' list for a year or 2 already.
Sorry Dioxine, didn't realize this thread was in your subforum. You can delete the postings in questions if you want.
Otherwise its just a modplug again *lol*
EDIT: Giving normal Chryssalids agression: 2 still makes them more dangerous then before, I change you could consider.
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I think people may have only seen the stat block for my proposal.
If you scroll down, you will see it indeed includes special abilities such as regeneration, spitting (spitting creates zombies when it would kill a human target, but that zombie is sterile as wasn't implanted with an egg; it however, will only utilize this when it can't pathfind to a target), invisibility (their carapace features active camouflage like a chameleon), and a new UFOpaedia entry for the interrogation and autopsy.
Essentially the Alpha Chryssalid is a weaponized version of the Chryssalid species the Star Gods devised after getting frustrated by all the usual countermeasures to the creature (600 years is a long time to improve on their basic design). You would probably find these in small numbers on Terror Ships/Cruisers/Hideouts.
I'll update my OP.
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Essentially the Alpha Chryssalid is a weaponized version of the Chryssalid species the Star Gods devised after getting frustrated by all the usual countermeasures to the creature (600 years is a long time to improve on their basic design).
That doesn't fit in the lore at all. First, 600 years is a blink of an eye as far as the Ethereal civilization goes. Second, they only innovate if they find something to steal (that's how they got everything besides their psi). Third, Earth is no longer important. If anyone, Church might be interested in breeding better chryssalids (because they want everything more perfect).
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That doesn't fit in the lore at all. First, 600 years is a blink of an eye as far as the Ethereal civilization goes. Second, they only innovate if they find something to steal (that's how they got everything besides their psi). Third, Earth is no longer important. If anyone, Church might be interested in breeding better chryssalids (because they want everything more perfect).
Law of accelerating (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_change) returns pretty much demands that unless the Ethereals (and their brain overlord(s)) were effectively committed to stasis, there would be innovations on their existing tech if not substantial innovations/improvements. Maybe in the Piratez universe this is indeed the case; I'm sure I haven't gotten anywhere near all of the fluff techs done.
But if for whatever reason the Ethereals have in 600 years made minimal to no technological progress (the plasma blaster being about the only innovation I've seen, maybe Slave AIs) despite their immense level of existing sophistication in the 90s, then the Church could certainly go about doing that.
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:o Citing that law as a reason why the setting that Dioxine created can't work like Dioxine intends it to is weird. It's not like it's a law of nature either (unlike say.. Newton's laws or the laws of thermodynamic). There are plenty of stagnating sci-fi settings and the Piratez setting does seem like a decadent empire. Where XCom is typically optimistic (aliens invade, humans band together, learn all their tech and kick their butts), Piratez is quite a dystopia and nothing progresses much (technology is still generally inferior to alien tech from XCom:EU) besides the gals who are developing stuff very rapidly.
Maybe the Star Gods could develop a new better chryssalid, but it would likely be used wherever the front of their war is, not on a backwater hellhole like Earth, except maybe as a test location. But Earth already fell in Piratez during the first invasion, so they might not be the best to test a new weapon either.
The idea of the church experimenting to create an even deadlier alien life form is interesting and between celatids and chryssalids, they have all the traits they need to splice together in order to make it happen.
The only thing left is balancing it so that it's not weaker (it could be, since if spitting doesn't further the infestation), nor too strong, which seems to rely more on AI than on stats, something that can't be modded but could potentially be played with by someone inclined to alter the code, if Dioxine is interested.
Personally, increasing the aggression values of some melee enemies (reapers especially) so they stop being so shy and go for it if they can bite even only once, would already improve the situation. I've had plenty of chryssalids walk up to gals but not strike, and plenty of reapers peaking out then hiding again behind a fence, where they can be hit by flamethrowers or cannons safely.
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Personally I think what would make them great again is if their self-preservation instinct stopped being so dominant over the urge to procreate. It does not help them at all.
Fist chryssalid I saw in Piratez ran away from me. My gals shot it, but they didn't kill it, so I sent one to CDG it. It woke up in her arms, and then proceeded to RUN AWAY AGAIN, before being shot dead.
If it had just attacked, I would have been totally fucked.
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Law of accelerating (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_change) returns pretty much demands that unless the Ethereals (and their brain overlord(s)) were effectively committed to stasis, there would be innovations on their existing tech if not substantial innovations/improvements. Maybe in the Piratez universe this is indeed the case; I'm sure I haven't gotten anywhere near all of the fluff techs done.
Law of accelerating must hit the ceiling at some point unless a civilization develops and keeps developing intelligences surpassing their own brain power. From what is known, Ethereals did this only once to create brains in jars. Also such a civilization must keep ever-growing records and research facilities.
Also, to innovate upon something, the tech in question has to be understood. If the divide between understood tech and maximum tech is too wide (intermediate techs are lost), innovation is impossible.
It is not clear if Ethereals and their brains understand their own tech. It is fully possible that original creators of their tech are dead or no longer in possession of required knowledge.
If the Ethereal tech is fully understood only by their 'priesthood', and any external knowledge is supressed, it also blocks improvement.
Another of endless possibilities is commitment/understanding of only select areas of high tech (probably mathematics in the case of Ethereals).
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Law of accelerating must hit the ceiling at some point unless a civilization develops and keeps developing intelligences surpassing their own brain power. From what is known, Ethereals did this only once to create brains in jars. Also such a civilization must keep ever-growing records and research facilities.
Also, to innovate upon something, the tech in question has to be understood. If the divide between understood tech and maximum tech is too wide (intermediate techs are lost), innovation is impossible.
It is not clear if Ethereals and their brains understand their own tech. It is fully possible that original creators of their tech are dead or no longer in possession of required knowledge.
If the Ethereal tech is fully understood only by their 'priesthood', and any external knowledge is supressed, it also blocks improvement.
Another of endless possibilities is commitment/understanding of only select areas of high tech (probably mathematics in the case of Ethereals).
Another possibility is that current human civilization is exception even for humans. Rome exists for over 1000 and do not have air crafts, China have around 4k years, ancient Egypt had up to 5k years. Mayans over 3k. And nobody show development similar to us.
Most of technology was lost with beginning of middle ages. We catch up in hundred years and surpass Rome in another 500.
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Well, humans are not an exception. Not only did huge crises happen (like the fall of Rome), which can be explained away by natural disasters, but also there is a proof against the general notion. From the article Surrealistik linked:
On the other hand, this research has shown that since the 1970s the World System does not develop hyperbolically any more, its development diverges more and more from the blow-up regime, and at present it is moving "from singularity", rather than "toward singularity"
It's kinda bold to demand the principle of accelerating returns from the Star Gods, if our own civilization managed to shot itself in the knee around 1970s (which is largely in line with my own research) and diverged from the model of accelerating returns towards the model of stasis - even though no natural disaster has befell us, and resources never had been so plentiful.
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We as a society value progress because we are in the middle of an industrial revolution (Moores law) but exponential growth is not sustainable, our society will either hit a plateau, or collapse entirely.
The Etherials are a stagnant civilization which sees no need to improve their already godlike technology. Furthermore, even if they did have better technology, they have no reason to care about earth (A failed experiment by the time of Piratez), and would probably not bother using it on us.
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:o Citing that law as a reason why the setting that Dioxine created can't work like Dioxine intends it to is weird. It's not like it's a law of nature either (unlike say.. Newton's laws or the laws of thermodynamic). There are plenty of stagnating sci-fi settings and the Piratez setting does seem like a decadent empire. Where XCom is typically optimistic (aliens invade, humans band together, learn all their tech and kick their butts), Piratez is quite a dystopia and nothing progresses much (technology is still generally inferior to alien tech from XCom:EU) besides the gals who are developing stuff very rapidly.
It's important to keep in mind that I am not asserting there is no way the Ethereals could be locked into technological stasis; I am saying that the Ethereals almost certainly would have to commit to a policy of stasis on some level to preclude any kind of significant technological innovation after 600 years given their tech base, and the Empire's evident stability (which presents a conundrum; if you have peace, you have all the resources and opportunity needed for advancement barring specific policy to the contrary; if you have war, you _must_ advance unless your opposition is markedly inferior). It's something to consider when shaping the lore of the universe, and making it consistent/believable.
As for the mechanical side, yes, I think if spitting were to be included, the AI would need a tweak such that the spit is _only_ used in cases where there is no pathfinding. Alternately though I suppose you could engender a fluff reason for impregnation occurring via the spit; i.e. the substance is riddled with eggs, with one ultimately developing when physiological conditions are 'right' and the host body has been adequately subverted with venom. On the flipside if this route is taken I'm concerned about Chryssalids devolving into better Celatids that use their spit in exclusion of their melee.
I agree that changing the Aggression level to 2 for the mindless/aggressive meleers would probably constitute an improvement given the ridiculous behaviour engendered by Aggression 1.
Law of accelerating must hit the ceiling at some point unless a civilization develops and keeps developing intelligences surpassing their own brain power. From what is known, Ethereals did this only once to create brains in jars. Also such a civilization must keep ever-growing records and research facilities.
Also, to innovate upon something, the tech in question has to be understood. If the divide between understood tech and maximum tech is too wide (intermediate techs are lost), innovation is impossible.
It is not clear if Ethereals and their brains understand their own tech. It is fully possible that original creators of their tech are dead or no longer in possession of required knowledge.
If the Ethereal tech is fully understood only by their 'priesthood', and any external knowledge is supressed, it also blocks improvement.
Another of endless possibilities is commitment/understanding of only select areas of high tech (probably mathematics in the case of Ethereals).
The cyberbrain strikes me as the sort that's capable of improving on the tech that exists in 90s if it were willing; though we don't know exactly what it is besides some biomechanical hybrid, if it had say quantum computing capabilities, it is almost certain we would see _some_ manner of material technological improvement, even if it opted not to self-improve, or create intelligences that were superior to its own. Clearly it is not at the horizons/limits of what it is capable of since mere humans were able to reverse engineer and master all of the technology save Elerium. Even if the governor did not possess a complete understanding of the tech at its disposal in the 90s despite being able to fabricate it from scratch, 600 years for an entity like it is more than enough time to capture that understanding and improve upon it.
I get that you're probably going for a WH40k approach; if so, keep in mind that 40k _does_ feature a policy of stasis among the Adeptus Mechanicus in terms of technological advancement at the bleeding edges, albeit one that's inconstantly applied except for certain key concepts (like sentient AIs), with technological and scientific progress ultimately occurring, albeit slowly. That said, likewise mirroring how certain factions and subsections within the Machine Cult advance technology per their independent initiatives, the major powers might feature areas they conduct genuine R&D, with the Church having a keen interest in alien genetics, and perhaps even splicing it with their own in order to become 'transcendent' (on that note, Ethereal/Human hybrids would be hella-sweet).
The bottom line however, is that even if accelerating change proves unsustainable or competing theories prove accurate (and honestly, I very much doubt that they will with the advent of large scale quantum computing), it is almost certain that there had to be some active policy or edict in place to effect the sort of 600 year stasis seen in Piratez, because there isn't even any kind of significant linear advancement, nevermind exponential. Even if you would argue that there's a 'tech embargo' or localized exclusion of advanced Stellar Empire tech with respect to Earth, the same would not be true of the Governor's crib in Cydonia which should be replete in the best it has to offer.
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The entire solar system is a backwater, Sidonia is still better than earth, but it's not going to have "The best the star gods have to offer."
And 600 years with no technological progress has been the norm for many periods in human civilization.
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The entire solar system is a backwater, Sidonia is still better than earth, but it's not going to have "The best the star gods have to offer."
And 600 years with no technological progress has been the norm for many periods in human civilization.
It may not be the bleeding edge, but it sure as hell will have upgraded tech vs 600 years ago.
Also at no point in human history did a stable, prosperous pax Empirica of some kind feature complete or near complete stagnation in terms of technological advancement for anywhere close to 600 years; the Stellar Empire is unchallenged, has plenty of time and resources to advance tech from its foundations in the 90s and its branch in our solar system has done virtually nothing; there has to be an explanation for that. An edict of some kind seems to be the only thing that makes sense.
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It is not unchallenged, but not challenged much in our system. And it's far older than the earth conquest. Post game stuff would likely include the Star Gods sending a pacification force to Earth. Hope the players leave their forces in good enough shape for that after Cydonia.
We are at best, Jerusalem at the height of the Roman Empire, barely even worth the effort to pacify. Or possibly Britain closer to the fall, cause enough trouble and they might abandon us while focusing on more useful places. Neither is really a good place for us to be.
The Chinese had that sort of stagnation at some point, as I understand it, the innovation wasn't stopped, but was often ignored.
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It is not unchallenged, but not challenged much in our system. And it's far older than the earth conquest. Post game stuff would likely include the Star Gods sending a pacification force to Earth. Hope the players leave their forces in good enough shape for that after Cydonia.
That would be cool, but again I cite that conundrum: either you have war whereupon innovation is necessitated, or you have peace where innovation is inevitable because of the abundance of resources and time.
We are at best, Jerusalem at the height of the Roman Empire, barely even worth the effort to pacify. Or possibly Britain closer to the fall, cause enough trouble and they might abandon us while focusing on more useful places. Neither is really a good place for us to be.
Sure, but that doesn't explain why not even the Star Gods, whether on Cydonia or otherwise, feature upgraded tech. Sure, maybe outside of an edict of stasis you can argue that the human factions get all the hand-me-downs and left overs from six centuries ago, and are never truly trusted or deemed worthy of the good stuff (and I honestly think even that much is a stretch), but not even the true constituents and enforcers of the Empire have updated gear.
The Chinese had that sort of stagnation at some point, as I understand it, the innovation wasn't stopped, but was often ignored.
Six centuries of stagnation with no visible advancements whatsoever?
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The Chinese had that sort of stagnation at some point, as I understand it, the innovation wasn't stopped, but was often ignored.
I think this is the key point.
Romans knew the steam machine; it was designed, built and tested. Yet nobody was interested, because everyone had a simpler energy source: slaves. Well, Star Gods have lesser races and factions do their job for them, which I think is a pretty good analogue.
Besides, controlling technology seems to be the most important means of controlling Earth. Star Gods only give what they feel they can control, like all the Hellerium tech (and Hellerium is pretty much inaccessible to anyone who can't buy it from the Empire directly). They're obviously not giving away their best stuff, they're giving stuff that was designed to be given away long ago for sub-civs like Earth.
Even Star Gods themselves, whenever interacting with Earthlings, use pretty much the same plasma tech. It's probably to protect their secrets, and besides, why not? They have their psi powers anyway, which are their greatest weapon (including dealing damage). Note that even when they use equipment, it's usually their constructs: Cyclops, Waspites or Guardians, not Star Gods proper.
Oh by the way, these servant races are a good example of new tech introduced by Star Gods over the last centuries. I do not know if they're fresh inventions or just something that is used on already conquered worlds, but they weren't here before. This is the kind of progress that is useful for the Star Gods, not better plasmas.
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I think this is the key point.
Romans knew the steam machine; it was designed, built and tested. Yet nobody was interested, because everyone had a simpler energy source: slaves. Well, Star Gods have lesser races and factions do their job for them, which I think is a pretty good analogue.
Besides, controlling technology seems to be the most important means of controlling Earth. Star Gods only give what they feel they can control, like all the Hellerium tech (and Hellerium is pretty much inaccessible to anyone who can't buy it from the Empire directly). They're obviously not giving away their best stuff, they're giving stuff that was designed to be given away long ago for sub-civs like Earth.
Even Star Gods themselves, whenever interacting with Earthlings, use pretty much the same plasma tech. It's probably to protect their secrets, and besides, why not? They have their psi powers anyway, which are their greatest weapon (including dealing damage). Note that even when they use equipment, it's usually their constructs: Cyclops, Waspites or Guardians, not Star Gods proper.
Oh by the way, these servant races are a good example of new tech introduced by Star Gods over the last centuries. I do not know if they're fresh inventions or just something that is used on already conquered worlds, but they weren't here before. This is the kind of progress that is useful for the Star Gods, not better plasmas.
This comes off as rationalization of an almost complete and utter lack of technological advancement: we're not just talking dismissal or suppression of key or specific advancements, but across the board stasis. This was simply not the case for the Chinese; there is no true parallel in history. Further, as a wholesale stagnation this goes far beyond simply 'no better dakka'; the supporting technologies haven't advanced one iota either. Maybe the servant races, if they are indeed new innovations rather than imports, might be scarce examples of progress, but if they truly do represent progress as custom purposed species for things like killing, then why not deadlier Chryssalids (though personally I don't care who is ultimately responsible for weaponizing the species)? Again, even if we accept a technological embargo or censure of Earth, that still wouldn't explain the lack of advancement on Cydonia, or among the Star God vessels.
Lastly, slaves may have surpassed primitive steam engines for the Romans, but there is no way they fill every conceivable niche and need in an vast interstellar Empire such that they completely obviate the need for innovation.
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I think this is the key point.
Romans knew the steam machine; it was designed, built and tested. Yet nobody was interested, because everyone had a simpler energy source: slaves. Well, Star Gods have lesser races and factions do their job for them, which I think is a pretty good analogue.
Besides, controlling technology seems to be the most important means of controlling Earth. Star Gods only give what they feel they can control, like all the Hellerium tech (and Hellerium is pretty much inaccessible to anyone who can't buy it from the Empire directly). They're obviously not giving away their best stuff, they're giving stuff that was designed to be given away long ago for sub-civs like Earth.
Even Star Gods themselves, whenever interacting with Earthlings, use pretty much the same plasma tech. It's probably to protect their secrets, and besides, why not? They have their psi powers anyway, which are their greatest weapon (including dealing damage). Note that even when they use equipment, it's usually their constructs: Cyclops, Waspites or Guardians, not Star Gods proper.
Oh by the way, these servant races are a good example of new tech introduced by Star Gods over the last centuries. I do not know if they're fresh inventions or just something that is used on already conquered worlds, but they weren't here before. This is the kind of progress that is useful for the Star Gods, not better plasmas.
This so much.
It should be pointed out, that in UFO, Xcom actually improves on a lot of alien tech for that reason. Notice that the sectopod is resistant to plasma but vulnerable to lasers (But has a laser weapon). The Etherials have more advanced weaponry than plasma, but they use plasma because it's good enough to take out anything the locals would throw at them.
They could also have given floaters armor comparable to Xcom flying armor. But why bother? That would just make them more expensive and more of a problem if they revolted. Better to just spam a bunch of expendable clones with heavy plasma.
Lids don't need to spit, because lids are a terror weapon designed to devastate civilian populations, not a military weapon designed to withstand an airborne assault. Heavy plasma is the star gods answer to airborne threats. If you want to make X-com harder, consider not powergaming.
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Lastly, slaves may have surpassed primitive steam engines for the Romans, but there is no way they fill every conceivable niche and need in an vast interstellar Empire such that they completely obviate the need for innovation.
Why would the star gods need to innovate? They won, humanity became just another one of their many failed experiments. They have no reason to invest in the infrastructure of a backwater planet, and in fact doing so would only make them a possible threat. Cydonia can be considered part of earth for all the star gods care, it's just a remote outpost. It did it's job just fine. As for UFOs, correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't there a whole bunch of new ones? Didn't the battleship get downgraded to cruiser?
The Brown Bess musket was used by the British empire for over 100 years. The AK47 turns 70 next year, and the M16 is approaching 50. If you consider the logistical constraints of a galactic empire, 600 years is not much of a step up from that. Slaving empires encourage stasis.
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This so much.
Already addressed.
It should be pointed out, that in UFO, Xcom actually improves on a lot of alien tech for that reason. Notice that the sectopod is resistant to plasma but vulnerable to lasers (But has a laser weapon). The Etherials have more advanced weaponry than plasma, but they use plasma because it's good enough to take out anything the locals would throw at them.
The Sectopod isn't proof of some reserve of superior armaments. Hell, the Cyberdisc's plasma cannon is deadlier and more accurate than the Sectopod's laser cannon despite lacking autofire.
They could also have given floaters armor comparable to Xcom flying armor. But why bother? That would just make them more expensive and more of a problem if they revolted. Better to just spam a bunch of expendable clones with heavy plasma.
Please don't tell me you're going to try to rationalize the design of every alien in the game in a completely tangential attempt to defend 600 years of full blown tech stasis in the context of this argument; things are truly getting absurd now. Floaters are weak because they're an early game enemy, not because of any concern about 'revolt'. Beyond that the concept of a Floater as a military unit is ridiculous, particularly for something intended to be mass produced; slow, weak, frail, inaccurate, and each one is treated to an intensive surgical procedure and substitution of major organs, which would probably be more resource intensive than any grafting or issuing of armour.
Lids don't need to spit, because lids are a terror weapon designed to devastate civilian populations, not a military weapon designed to withstand an airborne assault. Heavy plasma is the star gods answer to airborne threats. If you want to make X-com harder, consider not powergaming.
Or perhaps you can recognize that X-Com was a game first and foremost, was riddled with absurdities for the sake of gameplay and we have the opportunity to fix flaws with elements of the game rather than passively accept them and self-handicap. But beyond that, yes, Lids are initially conceived as a terror unit, but there is little reason their role could not be expanded. A cheap, tough, fast, deadly, self-reproducing combatant with an incredibly rapid metabolism that ensures a limited lifespan for ease of disposal when the dust has settled has a great deal of promise as a bioweapon, particularly if it can be made to deal with ranged or airborne threats.
Why would the star gods need to innovate? They won, humanity became just another one of their many failed experiments. They have no reason to invest in the infrastructure of a backwater planet, and in fact doing so would only make them a possible threat. Cydonia can be considered part of earth for all the star gods care, it's just a remote outpost. It did it's job just fine. As for UFOs, correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't there a whole bunch of new ones? Didn't the battleship get downgraded to cruiser?
Why _wouldn't_ they innovate? They're a Stellar Empire, they're apparently still conquering territory (according to other posters), they still have need to move forward and improve. There is nothing that specifically compels stasis, while there are active pressures that encourage advancement. Yes, Earth may be a backwater, but it is absurd to assert that this some how justifies 600 years of arrested development: no local innovations, no iterative improvements, no tech filtering down from other segments of the Empire, nothing.
The Brown Bess musket was used by the British empire for over 100 years. The AK47 turns 70 next year, and the M16 is approaching 50. If you consider the logistical constraints of a galactic empire, 600 years is not much of a step up from that. Slaving empires encourage stasis.
If you feel that we will be using the same weapon systems and armaments from now till hundreds of years in the future, or that weapons that are several decades old otherwise justifies 600 years of armament and technological stasis (with weapon retention periods declining as our technology advances) I don't know what to tell you other than that you're clearly wrong.
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I'll say it again. The British used the brown Bess musket for over 100 years, during a period in which they were conquering more or less the entire globe. This period of conquest and expansion did NOT force them to improve their weapons, it in fact discouraged it.
They could have invented better weapons, in fact better weapons were known during that time period. They could have used breachloading rifles or even semi automatic air guns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_air_rifle). But they specifically chose not to. Rolling out a new weapon to every regiment in the global empire, and training every last soldier how to properly use them. And then you'd have a pile of old, useless weapons.
Bottom line is, Empires are bureaucracies, and bureaucracies hate change. The same pattern is visible with the US military, we've been fighting wars in the middle east for decades, and nobody's been able to replace them M16 with anything other than another M16 with a few minor improvements. An interstellar empire would have it even worse.
I'll also point out again, that there ARE a lot of new things in Xpiratez. There are a bunch of new ships and the battleship from UFO got downgraded to a cruiser. We also don't know what weapons the star gods are using to fight their wars on the other side of the galaxy, and we probably never will, because earth is a failed experiment and our solar system is an unimportant backwater.
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Another factor, which I realized I forgot to bring up, and didn't see anywhere, is that the so called Star Gods are not actually in charge, they're higher up the totem pole than the humans, but they're not the top by any means, think less Roman Empire and more British Raj in nature.
I think it's funny how hard all of us are trying to win, in a category that doesn't matter and that we have no authority over. There is innovation going on, there is new uses of technology out there, even on Earth. Factions are encouraged to innovate but shackled at the same time. It's like they're messing with us because it amuses them :)
Even in a time of no major changes, there is enhancement of what you've got access to, the middle ages are a good time to look at for that sort of thing. But most of what we get access to is largely obsolete junk, what if the weapons and ships used by those forced to manage this useless backwater are junk as well?
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Who would even want to enhance Chryssalids? They are dangereous, scary, and way more risky to have them turned against you than anything else.
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So many words, but what is your thesis, Surrealistik? That the Star Gods force a policy of stagnation? Because it's true (as for the reasons, and various nuances, they have been laid out in the mod). They did somehow survive as a civilization for millions of years without innovating much - their tech is i-Phoney and spotty, they can't even build a real space cruiser it seems.
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If you feel that we will be using the same weapon systems and armaments from now till hundreds of years in the future, or that weapons that are several decades old otherwise justifies 600 years of armament and technological stasis (with weapon retention periods declining as our technology advances) I don't know what to tell you other than that you're clearly wrong.
I would like invert this question and ask what they improve in 600y BEFORE invading earth. TFTD aliens are from 65My years ago and they have comparable tech level as aliens from today. Only difference is adaptation not overall improvements.
Therefore there is stasis in alien civilization and only question is why.
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Who would even want to enhance Chryssalids? They are dangereous, scary, and way more risky to have them turned against you than anything else.
This too, the arguments for making Lids that can spit are starting to sound like the arguments for making a T-rex that can turn invisible.
Then again, the star gods would tottaly do that for shits and giggles.
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I'll say it again. The British used the brown Bess musket for over 100 years, during a period in which they were conquering more or less the entire globe. This period of conquest and expansion did NOT force them to improve their weapons, it in fact discouraged it.
They could have invented better weapons, in fact better weapons were known during that time period. They could have used breachloading rifles or even semi automatic air guns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_air_rifle). But they specifically chose not to. Rolling out a new weapon to every regiment in the global empire, and training every last soldier how to properly use them. And then you'd have a pile of old, useless weapons.
Bottom line is, Empires are bureaucracies, and bureaucracies hate change. The same pattern is visible with the US military, we've been fighting wars in the middle east for decades, and nobody's been able to replace them M16 with anything other than another M16 with a few minor improvements. An interstellar empire would have it even worse.
I'll also point out again, that there ARE a lot of new things in Xpiratez. There are a bunch of new ships and the battleship from UFO got downgraded to a cruiser. We also don't know what weapons the star gods are using to fight their wars on the other side of the galaxy, and we probably never will, because earth is a failed experiment and our solar system is an unimportant backwater.
Again, as technology advances, and you yourself as noted, retention periods of weaponry decline, even of widespread standard issue small arms. The Bass Musket may have been in use for 100 years; more advanced weaponry devised since has had a much shorter life cycle than that. Currently the M16 is looking to be replaced. In the meanwhile, the military technologies of today have revolutionized combat and deployment in all forms vis a vis as few as 30 years ago. Bureaucracy or not, backwater or not, 600 years is a long time for a high tech, high resource advanced civilization to make substantive changes and improvements on all forms and aspects of its technology, particularly when in competition with others. The Bass Musket justifies nothing.
So many words, but what is your thesis, Surrealistik? That the Star Gods force a policy of stagnation? Because it's true (as for the reasons, and various nuances, they have been laid out in the mod). They did somehow survive as a civilization for millions of years without innovating much - their tech is i-Phoney and spotty, they can't even build a real space cruiser it seems.
Yes, because such a policy is the only thing that would actually explain this level of stagnation (aside from some manner of catastrophy which does not seem to have happened).
This too, the arguments for making Lids that can spit are starting to sound like the arguments for making a T-rex that can turn invisible.
Then again, the star gods would tottaly do that for shits and giggles.
They're psionically controlled (ala beastmasters), and as an added failsafe, they almost certainly have extremely short lifespans due to their insane metabolic rate; I very much doubt that weaponized Chryssalids would be of concern to the Star Gods, particularly as you would obviously not customize them to be uncontrollable. The arguments for making a spitting Chryssalid are sound from a gameplay perspective and a canon one (particularly in a universe where flight capable armour is a thing).
@Yankes: The TFTD aliens were in _literal_ stasis however, excepting small, intermittent expeditions/scouting parties.
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@Yankes: The TFTD aliens were in _literal_ stasis however, excepting small, intermittent expeditions/scouting parties.
But you don't get my point. All of they tech is 65My old version of tech of aliens from first game. This mean that aliens from first game do not advance anything in that long period compare to that they had millions years ago. Another 600 will not made difference.
btw of M16, right now there no new technology that is better than it. There was big jumps between muskets -> breach-loaders -> repeating rifles -> self-loading -> full-automatic. There was many test for finding new "tier" but most proposals was to much convoluted and not reliable to be better than M16 e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective_Individual_Combat_Weapon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet (new approach that right now failed completely)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G11 (without bullets cases you have problems with radiating heat from combustion, unexpected isn't it?)
Right now if something replace M16 this will be no more different to M16 than AK47 to M16.
Probably only real improvement to that would be explosive ammo but this is old as WWII other wise you will need solve human body limitations that limit that we can expects form infantry rifles based on gun powder.
Another example of hitting roof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol over 100y of service. With some tweaks it probably will last for another 100y.
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But you don't get my point. All of they tech is 65My old version of tech of aliens from first game. This mean that aliens from first game do not advance anything in that long period compare to that they had millions years ago. Another 600 will not made difference.
We actually don't know the level of tech T'leth had at the time it went into the ocean; all the sonic tech and the like are necessary innovations due to its new, watery environment which don't tell us what T'leth was packing before then.
That said, T'leth and Cydonia are clearly related, and there's no doubt that T'leth did have rather advanced technology at the time of its crash; enough that it the aliens on Cydonia should be miles ahead of where they are. The only reasonable explanation is that there were several, near-terminal catastrophes between the time of T'leth's crash and Mars' assault on earth, with the Stellar Empire going through several rises and falls (or perhaps not even having been formed, with the various species which constitute it infighting during this time). On a timeline of tens of millions of years, it is doubtful whether even systemic social engineering could engender almost complete stasis for so long, even if for whatever reason a species was committed to such policy for so long.
btw of M16, right now there no new technology that is better than it. There was big jumps between muskets -> breach-loaders -> repeating rifles -> self-loading -> full-automatic. There was many test for finding new "tier" but most proposals was to much convoluted and not reliable to be better than M16 e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective_Individual_Combat_Weapon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet (new approach that right now failed completely)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G11 (without bullets cases you have problems with radiating heat from combustion, unexpected isn't it?)
Right now if something replace M16 this will be no more different to M16 than AK47 to M16.
Probably only real improvement to that would be explosive ammo but this is old as WWII other wise you will need solve human body limitations that limit that we can expects form infantry rifles based on gun powder.
There is no assault rifle _sufficiently_ better per the Pentagon's perspective than it that it justifies the expense of replacement. That said, there are most definitely better rifles (several American, German and Russian models come to mind).
That said, the Pentagon is most definitely on the look for a next gen assault rifle sufficiently cost and performance effective which would merit such replacement.
Another example of hitting roof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol over 100y of service. With some tweaks it probably will last for another 100y.
In light of pending next gen body armour (nanotubes) I doubt it.
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We actually don't know the level of tech T'leth had at the time it went into the ocean; all the sonic tech and the like are necessary innovations due to its new, watery environment which don't tell us what T'leth was packing before then.
That said, T'leth and Cydonia are clearly related, and there's no doubt that T'leth did have rather advanced technology at the time of its crash; enough that it the aliens on Cydonia should be miles ahead of where they are. The only reasonable explanation is that there were several, near-terminal catastrophes between the time of T'leth's crash and Mars' assault on earth, with the Stellar Empire going through several rises and falls (or perhaps not even having been formed, with the various species which constitute it infighting during this time). On a timeline of tens of millions of years, it is doubtful whether even systemic social engineering could engender almost complete stasis for so long, even if for whatever reason a species was committed to such policy for so long.
Probably only solution is ask authors why this happened. For me only sensible exploitation is that they hit dead end and now only permuting existing technologies. Without real pan galactic civilization we can't say how it will behave. Right now Dioxine run this town, and he has last word about this.
And what you can do with it? Simply fork it. Create your own mode based on PirateZ and change it in way that you think made it better.
This is not that hard, you could simply start with your Chryssalid, copy paste it and start adding new stuff.
This is exactly that I did with Extended, instead of arguing with Warboy to trying change his goals I simply took burden on myself to create greater modding capacities in OpenXcom. And this was repeated by Meridian who start modifying my branch based on his own goals. With our collaboration we made piratez possible.
btw soon I plan add proper invisibility without using LOS hacks. You will be able made unit visible only up to 3 tiles away for solder. But with proper defection you could see him further.
There is no assault rifle _sufficiently_ better per the Pentagon's perspective than it that it justifies the expense of replacement. That said, there are most definitely better rifles (several American, German and Russian models come to mind).
That said, the Pentagon is most definitely on the look for a next gen assault rifle sufficiently cost and performance effective which would merit such replacement.
My point was that there will be not sufficiently better weapon than M16. Previously where was big replacements when tech switch from semi-auto to full-auto rifles. If they did not do it they would fall behind. Now they can postpone it indefinitely because they will never lose any battle only because they don't switch rifles.
In light of pending next gen body armour (nanotubes) I doubt it.
This is possible. If this armors could be mass producible then we will say goodbye to M1911 and M16 (and most of his current competitors).
Better armors probably will make renaissance of guns like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_dtC6ZOR3w even if bullet is stopped, released energy will crush bones and internal organs or cause brain concussion.
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If Chryssalids were more zerg rushy I think that's the only change that would be needed, when you fly you're oftentimes exposed to gun fire. No smoke or cover.
You'll never fight only Chryssalids so if they can spit or not shouldn't be a huge issue.
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Well, after all this storm in a glass of water, we're back in the starting point. To sum it up:
- I'm definitely not ruling out adding super-predator Chryssalids at some point (it was written down on my list long before this thread appeared), but not as Star Gods' cohorts. And yes it would be built somewhere along the lines proposed by Surrealistik (which was already done by Hellrazor for his mod, btw, with the exception of invisibility).
- Star Gods' civilisation is in a state of technological stasis, at least on the grandest scale. The main control mechanism is artificial resource scarcity. Eg. Star Gods cannot allow large-scale fusion power, or syntethic Hellerium (which is possible too), because it obsoletes THEIR Hellerium.
- I very much look forward to the new visibility and dynamic lighting developed by Yankes :)
PS.
And oh yes, we definitely need AI to understand min and max range of its weapon (only that much is needed to create hunt patterns of the uber-chryssalids proposed by Surrealistik). Basically, use different attack mode if target is beyond max range or closer than min range (attacks within min range are usually possible too, but why overcomplicate things?).
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If Chryssalids were more zerg rushy I think that's the only change that would be needed, when you fly you're oftentimes exposed to gun fire. No smoke or cover.
You'll never fight only Chryssalids so if they can spit or not shouldn't be a huge issue.
I definitely feel the aggression setting needs to be changed for sure, though I am concerned about Chryssalids beelining into the transport while you're pinned down with RF camping on the first turn, and can't really do anything about it; that's one thing that needs to be accounted for should this be changed.
Smoke does apply to the second level however (unless maybe you're using 2-d explosions), so you can indeed fly and benefit from 'cloud cover' (just don't go pointlessly to Z-8 and you'll be fine).
That said, I don't see 'Alpha Chryssalids' being standard issue until maybe very late in the game, being specific in small numbers to only the biggest concentrations of Church forces.
What Dioxine said sounds good to me.
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I definitely feel the aggression setting needs to be changed for sure, though I am concerned about Chryssalids beelining into the transport while you're pinned down with RF camping on the first turn, and can't really do anything about it; that's one thing that needs to be accounted for should this be changed.
Smoke does apply to the second level however (unless maybe you're using 2-d explosions), so you can indeed fly and benefit from 'cloud cover' (just don't go pointlessly to Z-8 and you'll be fine).
That said, I don't see 'Alpha Chryssalids' being standard issue until maybe very late in the game, being specific in small numbers to only the biggest concentrations of Church forces.
What Dioxine said sounds good to me.
IMO Lids bee-lining to the transport makes sense, lategame transports have roof access, and the AI if it doesn't see your gals is cautous upon approach. The Lids IMO should only beeline if the door or view of the gals is accessible which would never happen before you got the opportunity to let out smoke screens
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IMO Lids bee-lining to the transport makes sense, lategame transports have roof access, and the AI if it doesn't see your gals is cautous upon approach. The Lids IMO should only beeline if the door or view of the gals is accessible which would never happen before you got the opportunity to let out smoke screens
Lid rushing would definitely be a problem for early/mid-game craft like the Pachyderm; less of an issue for something like the Bonaventura but that and late game craft shouldn't be the foundation for balancing assumptions.
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Lid rushing would definitely be a problem for early/mid-game craft like the Pachyderm; less of an issue for something like the Bonaventura but that and late game craft shouldn't be the foundation for balancing assumptions.
Use of smoke should break line of sight, also reaction fire can stop rushing into your gals. If anything introduction of powerful lids should be for terror missions/ships, and base attack/defense only.
Early/Mid game should not be the time to take on elite units doing terror missions so running away should be always on the table. Like if you're using old carbines but face mercenaries.
Even mid game you can generally get some grav units to fly making nids less of an issue, if they were to become super powerful on the ground.
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Use of smoke should break line of sight, also reaction fire can stop rushing into your gals. If anything introduction of powerful lids should be for terror missions/ships, and base attack/defense only.
Early/Mid game should not be the time to take on elite units doing terror missions so running away should be always on the table. Like if you're using old carbines but face mercenaries.
Even mid game you can generally get some grav units to fly making nids less of an issue, if they were to become super powerful on the ground.
I mean lids in general.
Alpha Lids would be specific to Terror Ships and things like Cruisers/Battleships/Hideouts and there should probably be only a couple after being introduced Mid game; I don't think they should replace standard Lids until the late game.
Reaction fire would not be a reliable way to stop a Chryssalid from assaulting a Pachy (they open the door, start out at melee range, and melee doesn't trigger RF; you'd have to spam mines or something).
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I mean lids in general.
Alpha Lids would be specific to Terror Ships and things like Cruisers/Battleships/Hideouts and there should probably be only a couple after being introduced Mid game; I don't think they should replace standard Lids until the late game.
Reaction fire would not be a reliable way to stop a Chryssalid from assaulting a Pachy (they open the door, start out at melee range, and melee doesn't trigger RF; you'd have to spam mines or something).
IMO IRL if your ship is taking fire, and you're safe inside at the moment most people would run away. Though I don't see an issue with mines if grenades can cause them to be destroyed if it's clear you aren't being assaulted. But still I believe that if you don't have the resources to take on a certain enemy running away should always be an option.
Course making lids into a really scary terror unit would make things hard since all the civie's would become zeds, dropping score, and if aggression is too high the lids would chase your gals out or convert them. This would make conservative play much tougher since waiting, and time only makes your enemy stronger significantly.
I think a mod add on should be made for making lids tougher to see how people like it, and iron out the bugs from there. TBH I think it'd be interesting to see a kinda of situation where after 3-5 turns all 8-16 civilians turn into zombies, and then try to gank you.
I'd also like to see a mutant police force or civilians with weapons to defend themselves, but I think the engine limits this, I gave civilians weapons once and they don't use it, except for only reaction fire, which can hit your own troops just as easy.
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Reaction fire would not be a reliable way to stop a Chryssalid from assaulting a Pachy
In my opinion, if in your mod there is a reliable way to deal with Chryssalid assault, you're doing it wrong. ;)
I'd also like to see a mutant police force or civilians with weapons to defend themselves, but I think the engine limits this, I gave civilians weapons once and they don't use it, except for only reaction fire, which can hit your own troops just as easy.
This possibility is already in the nightly. When it trickles down to OXCE, we can have it too. Yay!
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In my opinion, if in your mod there is a reliable way to deal with Chryssalid assault, you're doing it wrong. ;)
Haha, hey, I want them to be terror inducing, not wholly unstoppable.
This possibility is already in the nightly. When it trickles down to OXCE, we can have it too. Yay!
Nice.
So far as Lids and terror missions go it'd be cool to have special terror missions which are just all Lids and Alpha Lids, maybe with a Beastmaster or two presiding over them.
But yeah, I'm totally down with a more aggressive AI for the Lids within balance of reason. The player should have an opportunity to deal with it outside of mining their dropship.
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Yeah aggression would help loads. The window where lids are a credible threat is comparatively smaller then vanilla. Even pogroms with lids are sorta meh because some of the civies are actually exceptionally sturdy. The real threat that made lids scary was the reproduction getting out of control because you where either caught unaware or failed to contain it in time.
The new xcom games have this problem too. The lids outside of the one all lid mission in 1 just fail to be scary. 2 kinda sidegraded them in that the adult lids are more difficult to handle between burrowing and reaction immunity but the newborns are no more then mild irritants.
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On a semi related note, are the scorpions supposed to be aggressive? seems like they only do reaction attacks.
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Just a heads up - in Xenonauts their version of the Chryssalids do beeline it right towards the transport. They are the easiest enemies to deal with because all you have to do is wait for them to come to you.
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Just a heads up - in Xenonauts their version of the Chryssalids do beeline it right towards the transport. They are the easiest enemies to deal with because all you have to do is wait for them to come to you.
It's not comparable for certain transports; again the Pachy is a good example; by the time you can see them (i.e. they open the door and in are in your face and can no longer be RFed) it's already too late. Like I'm talking T1-T2 rushes before you've left the transport.
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On a semi related note, are the scorpions supposed to be aggressive? seems like they only do reaction attacks.
They've hunted my entire crew once on the airbus xD!
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Just a heads up - in Xenonauts their version of the Chryssalids do beeline it right towards the transport. They are the easiest enemies to deal with because all you have to do is wait for them to come to you.
That's what makes them slightly less dangerous in EU2012. You either kill them on the turn they show up, or they get into melee range and kill all ur guys. Zombies are rare, and newborn lids are even rarer because they don't automatically spawn when a zombie dies. (That one change would make them much more dangerous in EU/EW)
That Newfoundland mission on the other hand. Long war makes that into a nightmare if you aren't specifically prepared with the right skills.
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That's what makes them slightly less dangerous in EU2012. You either kill them on the turn they show up, or they get into melee range and kill all ur guys. Zombies are rare, and newborn lids are even rarer because they don't automatically spawn when a zombie dies. (That one change would make them much more dangerous in EU/EW)
That Newfoundland mission on the other hand. Long war makes that into a nightmare if you aren't specifically prepared with the right skills.
From my personal experience and watching several Long War streamers, the Newfoundland mission is extremely difficult the first time through, but becomes one of the safest missions for leveling troops on once you know how to play it.
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From my personal experience and watching several Long War streamers, the Newfoundland mission is extremely difficult the first time through, but becomes one of the safest missions for leveling troops on once you know how to play it.
This.
Newlids are a joke.