OpenXcom Forum
Modding => OpenXcom Extended => OXCE Suggestions DONE => Topic started by: Meridian on July 26, 2016, 11:37:00 pm
-
Hi,
I'll be adding "monthlySalary" and "monthlyMaintenance" to items soon.
For example slaves or alliance advisors could have monthly salary, and tanks could have monthly maintenance.
And I'll create a small mod as a bonus, see attached.
Meridian
-
Woot! I love it!
-
Great news indeed!
Any chance for producing soldiers?
-
Wait, wait.
I now have to pay my vast, sprawling legions of slaves? Or can you give them money as an optional 'upgrade'?
-
Wait, wait.
I now have to pay my vast, sprawling legions of slaves? Or can you give them money as an optional 'upgrade'?
1. it's not even out yet
2. it's a mod... i.e. optional by definition
3. what Dioxine and others do with it afterwards is anybody's guess
-
I'd like to point out that the salary can probably be negative, so slaves could earn you money.
-
Loving it. And slaves sure need to be given salaries (even if low ones) - you need to feed, shelter and clothe them anyway :) Even more so, HWPs need maintenance. ESPECIALLY the Merc Commandos :)
-
I'd like to point out that the salary can probably be negative, so slaves could earn you money.
I'm okay with this, and that seems logical.
Personally I don't use auxiliaries so that you have to pay for their upkeep doesn't bother me; not sure why you'd do this unless you're seriously shorthanded except for maybe the heaviest armoured HWPs with large transports; better to train up gals; it seems to make an undervalued asset even worse.
Also those Mutant Advisors need a buff; they're a complete joke for the score risk they represent whenever you take them on a mission (at least early when you can't farm supply ships etc), and later on a gal is virtually always better.
-
I'm okay with this, and that seems logical.
Personally I don't use auxiliaries so that you have to pay for their upkeep doesn't bother me; not sure why you'd do this unless you're seriously shorthanded except for maybe the heaviest armoured HWPs with large transports; better to train up gals; it seems to make an undervalued asset even worse.
Yes, but... That mortar tank! Daaaaaaamn. :D
-
I think the tanks are actually quite OP (heavy armor + very powerful weapons, no hospital time), the only saving grace being how hard is to get them.
-
I think the tanks are actually quite OP (heavy armor + very powerful weapons, no hospital time), the only saving grace being how hard is to get them.
Yes, the tanks are the only ones I'd really ever consider using for those reasons.
-
That's already like, 7 or 8 types of vehicles, incl. hovertanks :) Mercs aren't as good, but they're Mercs and it's actually quite easy to get them. The rest probably can stay free, or have a token maintenance only (so you won't notice until you try to have 50 of them).
-
If Mercs could use weaponry other than their Boom Gun (or whatever it is), and don't have monthly upkeep (or at worst have a cheap monthly) I _might_ consider them worth a damn.
-
This is not important. The important fact is they can easily solo every single one of early missions, and you can get them soon enough to do just that. Another factor is, it's quite silly mercs don't get paid. Also they were never meant to be overtly attractive.
-
Why would I use Mercs on early missions when they can be robocopped for the most part in Scale or Plate while simultaneously training up my gals?
Mercs are pretty mediocre at the moment (I've only really found a use for them as base sentries), and slapping a maintenance on them, particularly an expensive one, without buffs makes them pretty much unusable.
-
Why would I use Mercs on early missions when they can be robocopped for the most part in Scale or Plate while simultaneously training up my gals?
That's your opinion. I'm not in a position to consider only a single side of a multi-faceted coin. Also, Scale is far from impenetrable by the lowliest weapons (one shot in 3 penetrates, at the very least, unless you use the TFTD damage cheat), while Plate will be harder to get in the future (and even now, it takes several months to get it - even if you beeline for it, you can usually have the Mercs faster by spamming civvie interrogations; also Plate will be a bit less resistant to grenades in the next ver.).
-
That's your opinion. I'm not in a position to consider only a single side of a multi-faceted coin. Also, Scale is far from impenetrable by the lowliest weapons (one shot in 3 penetrates, at the very least, unless you use the TFTD damage cheat), while Plate will be harder to get in the future (and even now, it takes several months to get it - even if you beeline for it, you can usually have the Mercs faster by spamming civvie interrogations; also Plate will be a bit less resistant to grenades in the next ver.).
What multiple facets? Even if gals get injuries they'll be only slight, and surgery kits can often reduce the recovery time to negligible levels.
Nerfing Plate's acquisition time won't make this already ultraniche unit substantially more attractive despite a big monthly maintenance.
-
Mercs are only loosely related with plate mail, and it's not even about buffing Mercs. But everything is related with everything. I'm not making a game for you, personally. Your campaign is only one of many possibilities. That means 'multiple facets': my goal is to provide enough possibilities so each player can carve their own path. But to do that, everything has to have balance, some underlying order, because gamey balancing is lacking with so many objects. Mercs are hardly unbalancing if you're not using them/hating them due to personal reasons. However, if I don't give a skunk about training my gals, free maintenance unit with unlimited ammo, immune to any starting enemy, and easily killing any starting enemy - what's not to like? Gals can be always trained via Gyms, battle experience really isn't neccesary.
-
Merc commandos are quite strong for when you first get them. Particularly with the present early game. Mercs can face tank and murder everything up to medium UFOs and some pogroms. However shortly after you get them is about the time the gals outdo everything so long as casualties have been minimal and decent gear is available.
The advisor is garbage however and needs some loving.
But balance aside won't cool feature.
-
The only problem I have with the advisor is that he's too slow to keep up. Or do you mean he's garbage compared to a brainer outfit and medkit?
-
Mercs have a niche while they're free maintenance; decent for base defenses, and if the stars align such that I really don't care about training gals, don't have plate, and don't want to bother breaking out the occasional surgery kit, and have the money to spend, sure, I guess great Cthulhu might rise whereupon they could see some use on trash/rote missions that need cleaning.
Slap on maintenance though and that already small niche is looking increasingly thin.
Legion describes one of the most fundamental problems besides: because Merc Commandos cannot use your gear, they have a vanishingly small window during which they are actually decent (and TBH, you pretty need to rush them as is to get maximum mileage... and at that point their cost probably matters). I think that if you do give them a sizable upkeep they most definitely should be able to use your shit.
Also advisor is definitely garbage vs taking another gal. The Merc Commando has tempted me on occasion; I cannot say the same is true for this guy.
-
Chiming in on the advisor here. I think the easiest buff that would make him useful, is to give back the ability for his Mind Read to work without a line of sight. I'd buy him and use him on critical snatch and grabs to help id remaining armor on GuildMasters and Provosts if this were the case. Once I discover the actual mind probe, his role would be done for the campaign. Otherwise I agree with the others, that he's a sluggish china-doll with underwhelming utility.
-
It's probably a silly idea, but... what if he gave points? You know, having spent the mission with the gals and survived, he speaks well of them to his superiors...
Not that it would matter much.
-
Then better would have TV reporter, more kills he see, more score he generate.
-
Yeah, I'm upgrading the Advisor to have a Mind Probe. As for Mercs, I find the arguments for buffing them lacking. The player is not supposed to forego the gals in lieu of Mercs, unless when having a Plan - and that would be caused by buffing them too much. Player is mostly fighting Mercs, not working with them. Naturally monthly maintenance also means that the entry fee will be somewhat lower (likely from 450 to 225k, with 75k maintenance and 75k sell value).
-
All I'm asking for is giving the Commandos the ability to use your weapons; ultimately the Gals will be better because of their high stat caps (also being able to use VooDoo, having a VooDoo STR greater than the 30s, etc), but it does make the Mercenaries a much more interesting buy and makes them more scalable. Bottom line, the complete lack of scalability means they have too small a niche that may never really come up if you don't get Merc Contacts until later.
Also would consider unlocking Psi Panic/Mind Control and other VooDoo abilities for the Advisors as appropriate techs are researched if that's at all possible to make them more scalable.
-
I agree that this could make the commando more interesting on the long term.
I think it is possible to give HWPs a built-in weapon that's not a fixed weapon. You can then make that weapon not-recoverable. This means the HWP will spawn with a weapon, but you can take it off and make it use your own instead, and you don't get a free rifle every time since the HWP weapon is not recovered at the end of a mission.
-
Right now is possible "rebuild" mercenaries like other items to "give" them better equipment.
-
All I'm asking for is giving the Commandos the ability to use your weapons; ultimately the Gals will be better because of their high stat caps (also being able to use VooDoo, having a VooDoo STR greater than the 30s, etc), but it does make the Mercenaries a much more interesting buy and makes them more scalable. Bottom line, the complete lack of scalability means they have too small a niche that may never really come up if you don't get Merc Contacts until later.
Such mercenaries as you describe are planned, but they're not these ones (not Mercs) - so I don't want to invest into something that would be temporary.
Also would consider unlocking Psi Panic/Mind Control and other VooDoo abilities for the Advisors as appropriate techs are researched if that's at all possible to make them more scalable.
Yeah, I think adding some Workshop projects to upgrade/rebuild both Mercs and Advisors (and maybe dogs as well) is an option (although I can hardly think about any Merc upgrade that won't automatically make him an universal soldier - already his only weakness is short-range weaponry; also, Advisors would have to sacrifice either medic bag or mind probe to get psi). I will add this to the list. An ideal solution would be a possibility to manufacture soldiers (and possibly also engineers and scientists).
-
Armor can have build in psi weapon. It will be used as alien psi attack.
-
If we get the ability to manufacture engineers and scientists, will runts and brainers start cheaper and with lower maintenance? Might need to be less effective too, though I'm sad to bring that up.
-
Such mercenaries as you describe are planned, but they're not these ones (not Mercs) - so I don't want to invest into something that would be temporary.
Yeah, I think adding some Workshop projects to upgrade/rebuild both Mercs and Advisors (and maybe dogs as well) is an option (although I can hardly think about any Merc upgrade that won't automatically make him an universal soldier - already his only weakness is short-range weaponry; also, Advisors would have to sacrifice either medic bag or mind probe to get psi). I will add this to the list. An ideal solution would be a possibility to manufacture soldiers (and possibly also engineers and scientists).
A summary of the Merc's glaring weaknesses:
#1: Weak armour by the mid-late game.
#2: Weak to VooDoo
#3: Can't use VooDoo
#4: Can't use grenades/indirect fire
#5: Limited range
#6: Generally inferior to developed gals
#7: Weak weapon by mid-late game
Also wouldn't it be possible to upgrade the Advisor Mind Probe to have MC and Panic Unit functions?
-
I would disagree with point 1. Everything sucks armour wise for a fairly large portion of the game. Armors only point after a certain level of opposition is to reduce downtime and deaths not block injury outright. In that regard the commando has a leg up do to its HWP staus
-
I would disagree with point 1. Everything sucks armour wise for a fairly large portion of the game. Armors only point after a certain level of opposition is to reduce downtime and deaths not block injury outright. In that regard the commando has a leg up do to its HWP staus
I wouldn't. Plate is better than what the MCs have on offer, and by the mid-late you will be able to get it even with Guild Engineer interro being a prereq.
The real advantage you're talking about is the lack of downtime when they eat injuries (though by mid-late, you should have an ample pool of gals to cycle in), not the relative strength of their armour.
-
Mercenaries should have monthly upkeep they are mercenaries.
Even with a mind probe I feel like it would make more sense that an Adviser ought to increase score at the end of each mission, a bit like 10 more for the extra recognition of the gal's events for more notoriety.
-
Mercenaries should have monthly upkeep they are mercenaries.
Sure, but they should be made scalable and worth taking.
Even with a mind probe I feel like it would make more sense that an Adviser ought to increase score at the end of each mission, a bit like 10 more for the extra recognition of the gal's events for more notoriety.
Sounds good.
-
UI changes attached.
-
Nice!
This gave me some semi-humorous ideas for "other employees":
Accountant. Reduces base maintenance by 5% (buildings only). Each subsequent accountant in a given base gives diminishing returns. Requires mid-level tech (after School Graduation) and some sort of office.
Masseuse. Reduces downtime due to combat stress, if it ever gets introduced. Requires some medical and basic voodoo research.
Master Chef. Required for some advanced cuisine and the Queen Palace.
It would be ideal if such people could be produced either from Brainers or Runts - think specialization.
-
Can we get doctors to staff the surgery room and actually heal people too? I don't care if I have to assign gals to the surgery room at the expense of training (you already can't train if you're wounded, I think), but it would be nice to reduce some of those 80 days injuries!
Make health care expensive, sure, but I would still welcome it! Something like surgery room can take 2 doctors (it replaces the brainers) and each doctor can treat 5 patients at a time, maybe? Doctor salary is obviously higher than brainer.
-
A summary of the Merc's glaring weaknesses:
#1: Weak armour by the mid-late game.
#2: Weak to VooDoo
#3: Can't use VooDoo
#4: Can't use grenades/indirect fire
#5: Limited range
#6: Generally inferior to developed gals
#7: Weak weapon by mid-late game
Maybe a summary of Merc's glaring advantages, then? :)
#1: Nigh-invincible armor against anything below laser-class weaponry, including gas weapons
#2: No heal time
#3: No barracks space
#4: Flying
#5: Can't get better night vision than his
#6: Main weapon can reliably destroy anything short of a tank or power armor (if you have the skill to use it)
#7: Offhand weapon can one-hit-stun anything short of power armor
#8: Generally superior to undeveloped gals
#9: Fearless, thus Psi less dangerous.
#10: Almost immune to own weapon, and high-end armors are immune to his weapon too, thus Psi less dangerous.
You say it's not worth it. I say maybe yes, maybe no. The goal behind introducing him is, thus, fulfilled. From practice, I've succesfully used 4 of them (backed by 8 swabbies and 2 veterans) to repel a Star God raid on my hideout. Nothing clears a corridor like a big guy with a big shotgun.
-
@ Arthanor: Yeah, it always bothered me that the Surgery Room can't be used for healing. I'm not sure if having a separate role like 'Doctor' is necessary though. The way I'd probably work it is you'd have an interface for assigning Brainers to heal wounded Gals, as though you were assigning them to research; the more Brainers assigned to a wounded Gal, the faster she heals. Brainers assigned in this way obviously can't do research so that's your opportunity cost.
Maybe a summary of Merc's glaring advantages, then? :)
#1: Nigh-invincible armor against anything below laser-class weaponry, including gas weapons
#2: No heal time
#3: No barracks space
#4: Flying
#5: Can't get better night vision than his
#6: Main weapon can reliably destroy anything short of a tank or power armor (if you have the skill to use it)
#7: Offhand weapon can one-hit-stun anything short of power armor
#8: Generally superior to undeveloped gals
#9: Fearless, thus Psi less dangerous.
#10: Almost immune to own weapon, and high-end armors are immune to his weapon too, thus Psi less dangerous.
You say it's not worth it. I say maybe yes, maybe no. The goal behind introducing him is, thus, fulfilled. From practice, I've succesfully used 4 of them (backed by 8 swabbies and 2 veterans) to repel a Star God raid on my hideout. Nothing clears a corridor like a big guy with a big shotgun.
#1: Gals can get comparable (and better) armour.
#2: Yes, but you shouldn't be wracking up injuries in the first place outside of terrible RNG. The real advantage here is that they enable more aggressive/reckless play vs weak opponents.
#3: Minor benefit excepting production bases. As I said, they have exactly one (1) enduring niche, and that's on base defense... but since you're hitting them with a big maintenance cost without providing anything in return, that niche will be threatened.
#4: Gals can fly; not an exclusive benefit.
#5: Largely irrelevant (honestly, you are insane to not spam lighting everywhere on Night missions vs enemies that can actually harm you short of having NV on everyone that will see frontline combat), but it's possible to get comparable NV.
#6: The same is true with most of the weapons the Gals use, though they are also capable of fielding tank busters besides and can kill effectively at far longer ranges and without even needing LoS. This is not an actual pro.
#7: Gals can get things that do this.
#8: Sure.
#9: Fearlessness is nice but a small benefit in practice vs 50+ Bravery. Psi remains incredibly dangerous with these guys; that 38 VD STR with no skill is a big liability, especially when you consider how close they have to get to the action (and subsequently how much more powerful and likely to work MC becomes).
#10: Scale and even Plate can get rocked by this weapon; unless your dudes are all outfitted in power armour (in which case why the hell are you still using Commandos), the Boom Gun is dangerous to have turned on you.
-
Come on, just stop this non-sense!... if mercs were better you wouldn't use your gals, you would just use mercs.
Dioxine wants you/us to use mercs as utilities... otherwise the game would be called MercenarieZ, not PirateZ.
-
Come on, just stop this non-sense!... if mercs were better you wouldn't use your gals, you would just use mercs.
Dioxine wants you/us to use mercs as utilities... otherwise the game would be called MercenarieZ, not PirateZ.
Sure. My point is not to make Mercs better, but to make Mercs scalable and worth a damn for more than a brief window of the game, particularly after they get hit with a nerf that requires you pay a substantial monthly upkeep which threats their value on base defense in your production facilities.
-
Sure. My point is not to make Mercs better, but to make Mercs scalable and worth a damn for more than a brief window of the game, particularly after they get hit with a nerf that requires you pay a substantial monthly upkeep which threats their value on base defense in your production facilities.
Mercs are items... items cannot be made scalable, they don't have the capability to improve. That's a game engine fact.
You can completely redo them as new soldier type and make them scalable... but again the game would then be renamed to MercenarieZ. If you don't find them useful enough, don't use them... I have never used them either, just like dozens of other things I find weak. There's too many things in the game, they cannot all be equal, some must be weaker, some stronger.
-
Mercs are items... items cannot be made scalable, they don't have the capability to improve. That's a game engine fact.
You can completely redo them as new soldier type and make them scalable... but again the game would then be renamed to MercenarieZ. If you don't find them useful enough, don't use them... I have never used them either, just like dozens of other things I find weak. There's too many things in the game, they cannot all be equal, some must be weaker, some stronger.
Allowing inventory access or merely having them equipped with better weapons would go a long way without actually making them better than veteran gals.
While I understand that there will always be stronger and weaker options, it is best that everything have a strong and clear niche, and the number of interesting choices maximized.
-
TBH I think what we should have are varied mercenaries that fill niche roles.
Heavy Tank - Minigun/Rocket Launcher
Sniper - Snip Rifle
Assault - Shotgun/Rifle
No Mercenary group would issue only boom guns to the people they hire out, course the mercenaries the gals have access to won't be top tier for good reason.
Mercenary costs are rather high, but tbh it fits in the flavor of how over priced illegal goods are. While I'd like it if the merc were like the lightning banger who can pick up and drop items, but when you have a govt/team issued item you generally hold on to it. Maybe the merc is mentally incapable of picking up items due to training implants.
-
While I understand that there will always be stronger and weaker options, it is best that everything have a strong and clear niche, and the number of interesting choices maximized.
Agreed, but I feel mercs are good enough as they are. The bottom line is, expanding upon them requires effort better spent elsewhere, and simply allowing inventory access (and removing fist so they could use offhand) would make them too powerful IMO.
-
Agreed, but I feel mercs are good enough as they are. The bottom line is, expanding upon them requires effort better spent elsewhere, and simply allowing inventory access (and removing fist so they could use offhand) would make them too powerful IMO.
They would probably need a cost increase with accessible inventory, but at the end of the day, a developed Gal is still better.
What Beta Spectre said is a decent compromise; if you could hire prefab specialists, or better yet, choose a custom loadout each mission, that would also be an improvement.
-
A few small updates:
1. Base maintenance now shows only facilities maintenance again, same as vanilla
2. "Other employees & inventory" now shows both "item salaries" and "item maintenance" cost together... the quantity is divided into employees/other items, see screenshot (5 employees * 1000 salary + 8 items * 100 maintenance )
3. besides items in transfer and items in storage, also the following items count now:
a/ items in the craft
b/ vehicles in the craft
c/ armor worn by soldiers
-
And now also:
d/ armor worn by soldiers in transfer