OpenXcom Forum
Modding => Released Mods => XPiratez => Topic started by: ohartenstein23 on June 16, 2016, 04:23:39 pm
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Got a little bored on public transit, and saw the need for updated information on craft weapons since the https://ufopaedia.org article is still in the queue for revision. So here's a link for a spreadsheet I made to calculate DPS for the weapons, based off the 0.99 ruleset file, and assuming you're attacking on aggressive stance.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R0PvIky-_X6XYGLVkAxw5Prgdnd2_6_toKDOFIBaIaY/edit?usp=sharing
I included columns for the increased accuracy of some of the heavy-weapon toting ships, since I was partially make this to decide what early heavy weapon should go on my Swordfish, and whether or not it'd be fun to equip a Barracuda with the hyper-wave targetter. In general, the DPS columns are more useful for the light and heavy weapons, with the exception of the plasma and fusion launchers, and the expected output columns are more useful for missiles. There are also pages for looking at damage vs. different size targets, so you can make informed decisions on what you want to use to take down that cruiser.
Edit: New sheet for modeling interception (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vrOhigpJZ6JUgf7crFwME0s8COepsQ22JbenBAzAs8o/edit?usp=sharing), up to date for pilot changes.
Edit: With my code addition of craft shields, determining the outcome of a given interception is no longer feasible without more direct simulation, so this spreadsheet is out-of-date and should not be used to direct your airgame.
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... since the https://ufopaedia.org article is still in the queue for revision...
Just FYI, anyone is able to add to the wiki!
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and yeah... I haven't been updating it in a while. :( I haven't even put in the changelog, etc for .99. This would be a really good update to refresh the 'pedia to, because due to ReaLife (tm), Dioxine will slow down on updates for the summer. :) Hmmm.. Maybe I'll get around to it next week.
And yeah, ohartenstein23. This is a nice tool. :) It would be great to add to the 'pedia!
There is still a lot I don't understand about it (mostly because I don't really understand air combat mechanics) so the why the enemy craft size makes a difference, why there are differences 10%-20% etc... Those things might be nice to capture for a 'pedia article as well. :)
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I guess I should get an account to help with the 'pedia if I'm going to the lengths to do this.
For the accuracy differences, the weapon hit chance increasing with larger UFOs is a behavior from vanilla - so DPS increases for the low-accuracy weapons pretty nicely when shooting at large or very large targets. The 10%-20% range are for your craft that have innate gun accuracy bonuses, like the Swordfish or Jetbike, or for any craft on which you equip a targetter in one of the light slots.
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I've added a few sheets just to rearrange to information by weapon class, in addition to by target shipping class. I may add some analysis on the economics of the weapons as well, when I feel like mining more data from the rulesets.
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Range is an important factor in engagement. For my own use, I tend to modify the dps score by adding approach time to the total time to unload all the ammo, and use the result as the base for dps calculations.
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I agree range is important - otherwise the sheet shows things like the lancer missiles as basically useless, even though they make for perfectly safe interceptions against nonmililtary targets. I just don't have the data for approach times. Where's the best place to look that up, or is it up to experiment?
Edit: Looking closer at https://ufopaedia.org (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Craft_Combat_Mechanics), the approach speed for all craft is 0.5 km/s, starting from a standoff range of 70 km. Are these the numbers you use in your calculations?
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It's in the in-game Bootypedia as well (article '#012'), and no, this number is incorrect. It was true for the OG, and initially for OXC as well, but then Warboy for some unknown reason lowered all the speeds in the air battle by half. Therefore approach speed in OXC (and thus in Piratez as well) is .25 km/sec. Standoff range is unchanged (70 km).
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AFAIR the change was to unify two different Geoscape counters, so the game only needs to check one for both things.
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Ah okay, that's good to know. I don't remember if I've unlocked #012 in my playthrough yet. Planning on updating the DPS calculations with the range and the weapons damage 50%-100% spread.
Edit: Updated and made the color scale for ranking DPS more clear.
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I just found out how to use some of the database functions and how to import data from https://ufopaedia.org tables into the spreadsheet - which means I have easy access to the data for practically all the shippings! Expect a new set of calculations for kill modelling based on enemy shipping vs. your lead interceptor at some point.
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It's quite helpful - I've already buffed the Ramjet based on your calculations :) And the Plasma Beam is waay OP :) (although perhaps it's how it's supposed to be).
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I'm glad it's helpful! I hope that by doing damage models on a per-shipping basis, we'll have more information on how the weapons are doing in specific roles. For example, I considered using the Ramjet as a beyond-enemy-range weapon for early interceptions with the Bonny, but I felt it did too little for the price, and the ships it could take down were just as easily downed with looted Gauss cannons and a few hours'/days' repair time on a HK/Predator.
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Ramjet has a good range advantage, but the DPS and total payload are so crappy they effectively nullify it. Especially considering how costly the Ramjet is.
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That low total payload and cost were what turned me off of the Ramjet, and once you hit Lancer missiles, I don't really see any reason to use it. Although, I guess that's the point of it being an early interception weapon on the black market - best of a few crappy choices, fence it once you can start producing better stuff.
By the way, I love the Naval Gun on the Swordfish for brutalizing nonmilitary targets - I know missiles and light cannons are a better and more economical choice, but there's something satisfying about mounting an a WWII-era battleship Abrams tank cannon on an interceptor and slamming UFOs with 120 mm shells.
Edit: Got my cannon sizes mixed up, thanks for noticing my mistake legionof1
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incidental fact 120 mm is actually quite small for warship armament on any true warship for that era let alone a battleship. For example the main guns mounted on the nazi cruiser Scharnhorst where 283 mm.
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I got my battleship and tank weapons mixed up... oops! I was thinking the 16-inch deck guns of an Iowa-class battleship, but had the diameter of the Abrams tank's main gun stuck in my head. So not flying battleships, more like flying tanks. Which is still cool, but much less so.
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Finished my initial work on modelling damage dealt to a shipping, based on the number and type of weapons you're using, the target, and how long you're willing to leave the lead interceptor under fire. Now you can figure out just how many guns you need to take down that battleship! (82, if you're using only 25 mm cannons and a shielded Kraken as lead interceptor)
It's based on data mined from https://ufopaedia.org, so it may be a little out of date until the wiki gets updated or I do more ruleset diving.
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Yeah it is outdated a bit, eg. Battleship has 7500 HP not 5000.
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If user account creation is re-allowed at some point for https://ufopaedia.org, I was planning on updating the craft/shipping information.
Can someone check if using the drop-down buttons for the Damage Modelling sheet works from the link? I just updated the sharing permissions, so changing those should be allowable.
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I just found out how to use some of the database functions and how to import data from https://ufopaedia.org tables into the spreadsheet <snip>
Just be aware that the Ufopaedia.org tables for the ship weapons have not be brought up to date for some time now. If you find any discrepancies with those and the current ruleset, please let me know, I'll be happy to update it. :)
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Give me a little time to ruleset dive, and I can give you an updated version of the tables - would it be useful to have them in the HTML format?
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Give me a little time to ruleset dive, and I can give you an updated version of the tables - would it be useful to have them in the HTML format?
To be honest it doesn't really matter. The wiki formatting is crazy, and I'll have to find each value and change it. Still, very much worthit. :)
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Okay, I'll link you a spreadsheet with updated data and highlight the changes/additions when I get a chance.
Also, edit to the damage model to make it more user-friendly to pick your interceptors/weapons, although it doesn't check to see if you put weapons on a zeppelin or something like that.
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The dodge bonuses listed in the bootypedia don't match avoidBonus in the ruleset - Dioxine, is avoidBonus subtracted from the UFO's accuracy instead of a multiplicative factor?
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It's substracted/added, never multiplied (same with craft acc. bonuses). The Bootypedia values are reflecting standard 60% chance to hit on part of enemy vessels.
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Lo and behold the threadcromancy!
Finally got around to updating the interception modeling on a new spreadsheet, now more accurate with handling for difficulty level, approach speed, and pilot bonuses! Also, it updates with the wiki, so there's a little less maintenance on my end. Link here, (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vrOhigpJZ6JUgf7crFwME0s8COepsQ22JbenBAzAs8o/edit?usp=sharing) and in first post.
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I've added a page for calculating DPS and the costs of firing your weapons, so it's now easier to min-max to your heart's content!
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Yeah it is outdated a bit, eg. Battleship has 7500 HP not 5000.
I was preparing to do aircombat with a Battleship and did some ruleset digging to get stats. The 0.99C ruleset has the Battleship with 3500 HP (damageMax) and weapon power 150. Is this how it should be?
As a side note: Since Piratez craft can have armor/shields, enemy vessels should also have them. So that 25mm cannons can't hurt a battleship. I guess implementing that would need a change in the code, but maybe it's easy enough to be worth doing.
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Were you looking at the entry for STR_BATTLESHIP or STR_SOTL? What was the battleship in vanilla is now called a cruiser, and the Piratez actual battleship is in fact, much scarier.
Also, while you're ruleset digging, have a look at a ship called silver towers - it's starting to go that armor/shields direction for you...
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Ah, yes. I was looking at STR_BATTLESHIP. Thank you for clearing that up. And I actually have looked at Silver Towers before and seen the shield on it... Stupid me.
With the addition of pilots, Piratez vessels got a huge boost in effectiveness (better dodge, accuracy, engagement speed). Because of this I guess Dioxine will do a rebalance of aircombat soon. Maybe we will see more shields on enemy vessels as a result of that.
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He did a little with the +10% accuracy boost, but I think it might not be enough with the huge effect high bravery or reactions has on the air game.
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Fine tuned balance of the air game is not a big deal. So long as some gateing of progress is occurring.
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So long as some gateing of progress is occurring.
Exactly. It seems to me you can take on strong vessels too early.
According to ohartenstein23's spreadsheets, you don't need high tech to take down a battleship (the 7500 HP thing). Kraken, Bonaventura, an interceptor. 105 mm Rockets, 50 mm Cannon and Seagulls. Maxed pilots in this setup and if you take one less seagull launcher the spreadsheet says it's a defeat and not a win. If you have a forth craft to contribute damage, you don't need maxed accuracy on all pilots. The most difficult thing to obtain here tech wise is the Kraken. The battleship blueprints that are required can get dropped in a base defence.
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My thoughts on air combat balance:
The pilot bonuses are too high. Low end weapons like the 25 mm Cannon get an inapropriately high boost in damage output. For the pilot bonuses, half the current values seem balanced values. I would go even lower (max +10% acc, +10% dodge, +50% approach speed). Then slap a bit of shielding (5 for medium ships, 10 for big ships) on the military vessels. This hurts low tech weapons more (as they are low damage), requiring higher tech to engange these ships.
Finally, I would like to have dodge bonuses and penalties tied to the combat stances. Cautious gets +10% dodge, aggressive gets -10% dodge. Right now there is no reason to ever use anything else than aggressive unless you outrange the enemy vessel. With this change, maybe differences in firing speeds of the weapons can be reintroduced to the stances as well.
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I think +25% acc at max is just fine; I don't want pilots to be negligible. Doubling the output of a crappy cannon is not such a great feat.
Some shielding on large enemy ships - mixed feelings here. In general it's a good idea, but do we want to return to the age of long-range Lancer strikes being 90% of all air combat?
Acc/Dodge/Approach speed bonuses depending on stance is a good idea, but it requires new code. Firing speed does differ on these stances, just only for a selection of weapons (like 50 mm cannon and all missiles).
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Exactly. It seems to me you can take on strong vessels too early.
According to ohartenstein23's spreadsheets, you don't need high tech to take down a battleship (the 7500 HP thing). Kraken, Bonaventura, an interceptor. 105 mm Rockets, 50 mm Cannon and Seagulls. Maxed pilots in this setup and if you take one less seagull launcher the spreadsheet says it's a defeat and not a win. If you have a forth craft to contribute damage, you don't need maxed accuracy on all pilots. The most difficult thing to obtain here tech wise is the Kraken. The battleship blueprints that are required can get dropped in a base defence.
Since when can Kraken, Bonaventura and HK even catch a Battleship?
The result is not "enemy down", but "enemy escaped & burnt hellerium"...
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The Kraken is not so hard to get if you've been interrogating engineers and pilots. Having maxed stat pilots enough for all of those would be more difficult. Also, Meridian is right that catching the battleship is not really feasible with craft as slow as the Bonny, but if you know where the ship will start slowing down and patrolling, and have your Kraken plus lots of DPS already in the area, it certainly does not take high tech levels to down it. Before the pilot update, I managed to shoot one down with a Kraken and a surplus of Naval Guns along with whatever else I could get in the air.
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The accuracy of weapons is just a damage multiplier. But if you can get +25% from a pilot, the +10% from targeter are not that impressive. That's why I would lower the bonus, to keep the targeter interesting enough.
The dodge bonus in my opinion is a problem though. High dodge makes air combat more of a chance game, and this is not somthing I find fun. Prime example of this is the jetbike. With a 28% dodge pilot, a 70% hit chance shipping will have a 12% hit chance. Put a gauss on that jetbike and it can kill gunships singlehandedly, but in a russian roulett fashion. A counter to that would be less dodge in general (or even more accuracy on shippings) or higher fire rate with same dps on shippings to smooth out the statistics. This is my opinion of course and it may be this state of the game is intentional.
Btw, do thrusters stack? Can you get +18% dodge from two thrusters?
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Note that jetbike has low HP and if the 78% dodge fails, you're toast; it's also the highest dodge craft by far. Also you have only 58% dodge vs. Mercs and Star Gods.
Targeters are used anyway. With dual cannons, that +20% from 2 targeters does make a difference. Also you get a large radar range bonus from them, which is hard to ignore.
And yeah, thrusters do stack as well (if I'm not mistaken)
As for the battleship battle, the result is 'win', but does it mean 'no losses' or 'kraken destroyed (along with 4 maxed out pilots), ventura heavily damaged'? Also note that you need 8 maxed-out soldiers to pull it off, which isn't that easy, especially reactions- and bravery- wise.
Indeed the enemy shippings could use some buff, though.
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Indeed the enemy shippings could use some buff, though.
I don't know... I "think" I am in the late game now (ep #155)... but I don't feel like I can do much... just barely shot down a Messenger (Nightmare, 2xSeagull, 2xGauss).
PS: I have researched many guns (e.g. Avalanche), but none seems to do more damage then previous models (I mean 6x80 or 5x90 or 4x160 or 1x600... is always just around 500 damage... do I really need to max out everything and bring 4 superfast craft with megapilots to shoot down a bigger ship?) I'm afraid that unless I will be forced to shoot them down by some research deadlock or something, I won't bother at all... which is a real shame.
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I made a the sheet such that the 'lose' condition is the lead interceptor getting destroyed, on average - the Kraken will likely be very heavily damaged, and if you're unlucky, dead, even if the sheet says that you win with no losses, on average. My first battleship shootdown had a Kraken with 1% remaining HP, so just because it's theoretically possible to win, doesn't mean it's a good idea economy-wise. Similarly, throwing your expensive Jetbike and a well-trained gal at gunships is likely to lose you a lot of money when you could just use a heftier interceptor instead.
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@Meridian: The heavy craft weapons do eventually have higher overall damage output, even the Naval Gun does more than the Avalanche given enough time. The better weapons simply frontload the damage, reducing the chance of you getting shot down. And even later in the game, when you have almost no landed ships, shooting down the big stuff is your source of monthly score.
Edit: You don't really need maxed stuff to do it, some good pilots plus a few good weapons is all that's necessary. Four average speed craft on a target is possible once you know where the target is headed.
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Since you can use up to 4 crafts in air combat, interceptions with a single one shouldn't be feasible against the toughest enemies, even with the late game tech.
Stingray/Hammermite/Lancer/Avalanche is matter of choice, not progression. All are deadly enough and substantially better than Seagulls.
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And yeah, thrusters do stack as well (if I'm not mistaken)
Going for maximum dodge is really powerful right now. With two thrusters the 10% dodge interceptors get a near jetbike dodge of 28% + pilot bonus. Brave Whaler can get 32% with 3 thrusters and Sabre tops it all with 33%.
Vs a 70% hit enemy with 28% dodge pilots:
The Crab has effective 993 HP + 5 armor; 525 * 70 / (70 - (5 + 28))
Predator has effective 1125 HP; 225 * 70 / (70 - (10 + 9 + 9 + 28))
This would mean a max dodge Predator is comparable as a lead attack craft to a Crab. Even better becaused dodged HP doesn't need to be repaired. This is just math though, I did not test it ingame if that is actually true. Also please comment wheather you think my math is valid, because I did not account for the Crab's armor.
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The most important aspect of aircombat is actually retaliations. If you have enough air power to shoot down the craft searching for your base, retaliations stop beeing an issue. Instead, they become a welcome source of new optional dangerous missions with high rewards (gauss farming).
If you have Predators with thrusters and two max dodge pilots (for the lead interceptor) you can catch and shoot down most of the craft looking for your base. Corvette is possible to shoot down with two Predators. If you also have a Kraken and 105 mm rockets, you can shoot down all craft looking for your base. I've checked, the tougher vessels all slow down enough for a Kraken to catch. They might still find your base before they slow down though.
I do not think this is a good state of things, retaliations should not be stoppable that easily.
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It's not necessarily easy to field a Kraken with four fully-trained pilots, it's that by the time the retaliations start, you probably have already done the necessary craft research and have the manufacturing infrastructure to keep the ammo up. If you know to plan your air game to counter peacekeeping and retaliation missions and how much money that can make you, then sure, the air game isn't hard. As with practically everything in Piratez, having the knowledge makes the game much easier. The point of my spreadsheet and this thread is to jumpstart some education in air combat; not to be too hard on Meridian, but since he invested much more in battlescape research, he's lacking air power against even the 'easier' military ships. If he spent some of his excess cash into an air force, he'd be in a much better position to counter the peacekeeping missions he can't currently stop.
Edit: So craft speed really does matter against retaliations - I just had a merc corvette escape my entire fleet (most notably my Kraken and Predator with a thruster - probably could have done it with dodgy Nightmare + avalanche Brave Whaler) and detect my research base. The follow-up Breaker is too fast for anything but a Saber, so I had to call an evacuation of all my brainers and quick sold all the buildings. So piratez cannot live by Kraken alone.
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Kind of, but not really on topic: Jetbike!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKHz7wOjb9w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKHz7wOjb9w)
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Of course it's Colin Furze. I should have expected that on clicking the link.
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It is interesting that you actually try to protect yourself via air combat. I find that base defense is one the best parts of the game. And not just from game-play, the pile of plasma tier armament is quite lucrative. Aside from one particular stargod deployment, a base defense properly played is pretty easy loot.
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Compare that to the loot you can get from shooting down the crackdown craft - if you don't let the sentry detect your base, you get a fighter. Shoot down fighter, get gunship/heavy gunship. And so on until Cruisers/Destroyers/Battleships, which have the haul of plasma weapons, plus plastasteel, engines, hellerium, and craft weapon parts for taking down more ships. Of course, late game when I'm building fuel capsules for the Conqueror, I don't really want to spend time doing any missions, so I just leave the downed craft.
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What I'm worried about when defending my bases is the small ones which don't have a good defence layout yet. I didn't play a base defence on such a base so far, so I don't know if it is actually a problem. I should try and find out I guess.
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as long as you get your barracks near the hangars/lift tube/summoning circle... you should be able to put a lot of troops on the enemy in a hurry.
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The key for effective base defense is getting maximum firepower bearing on the lift tile as quickly as possible. Preferably multiple launcher type weapons. To that end placing barracks adjacent to lift is a good idea. Prisons, summoning circles, detection buildings and anything with housing can spawn gals in it, plan out base accordingly. the goal is to get all these buildings as close to the lift as possible while leaving the lift attached to only one non hanger tile. Hanger goes on opposite side of lift from friendly spawning tile.
Example:
HHHH
HHHH
L
BB
BS
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Wanted to play around with the spreadsheet (looks like it has a lot of potential) but it fails because it can't read the ufopaedia or something? It's making use of more advanced spreadsheet features than I know, so I'm not sure what's going on...
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Dangit, it's broken again. Hang on, let me check.
Edit: Not broken, it's just that sometimes the import sheets don't properly grab the data from https://ufopaedia.org - try flipping through the sheets to see which one isn't importing correctly; it may refresh when you look at it.
By the way, with the way updates to the air game are going, that spreadsheet will probably become impossible to upkeep... For example, if shields get implemented, calculating the 'average' interception will become impossible without simulation, which was not the point of me creating the sheet. I might leave it up anyways, but make a new sheet just for DPS and cost.
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Ah! Odd.. I thought I had tried that.. works now.
Interesting to see the effect of size on damage applied through increased accuracy. Says I should still be able to take on cruisers with just a dragon with 3 railguns.
The complete analysis is definitely better than my partial one.
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I noticed an error in your spreadsheet regarding the handling of shipping armor. For damage, you use the formula:
(MaxDamage - Armor) * 0.75The correct one would be:
(MaxDamage * 0.75) - Armor
Example 50mm Cannon vs 10 armor shipping:
The damage range is 10 - 20 (average 15), with armor it's 0 - 10 (average 5). Using (MaxDamage - Armor) * 0.75 would give an incorrect 10 * 0.75 = 7.5 average damage.
The above corrected formula holds as long as armor is not greater than minimum damage. If Armor is greater than minimum damage (but still lower than maximum damage), the following formula can be used:
(MaxDamage - Armor)^2 / MaxDamage
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Even that would still give not the correct average damage, this was just a simplification for the average interception. If you're doing an interception where the average damage of a weapon is below the armor of a UFO, you should rethink your choices. The spreadsheet gets a number of things wrong because it approximates things for the sake of a simple calculation. You shouldn't be using it to plan out every single interception, just to get an idea of what you need to take down a certain level of UFO. Besides, it'll all be useless once craft shields start entering the picture.
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Right now I was thinking about intercepting a gunship. It has 10 armor and I need to do 500 damage to down it. So not that much damage needed. The damage output of the gunship is not that high, so the problem is not surviving but doing the damage.
My available weapons and how much ammo I would need (only from this weapon, with maxed pilots):
50mm Cannon - needs about 180 rounds, costs 540 000 from shop
Spike Rockets - needs about 50 rockets, costs 800 000 from shop
Seagull - needs about 15 missiles, costs 750 000 from shop
So two interceptors with Seagulls and 50mm Cannon would easily do the job. One could do enough damage, but then it's risky. So, I would say this is a perfectly legitimate interception.
So the questions I ask myself about that interception are:
- How much would the ammo required cost? Surprising that Seagull is cheaper than Spike Rockets.
- Could I do it with just 50mm Cannons? Are the three that I have enough? (No, needs 4 to be save or 3 and some other weapon.)
- How much damage would the Reticulan Plasma Charger do or the Sonic Oscillator? (Both do about 100 damage when shooting all their ammo, with maxed pilots)
The most important question is, is buying Seagulls worth it, and how many do I need. They are damn expansive, so I would like to know if I'm wasting money or not. And to answer that, I need correct formulas.
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You're welcome to copy the spreadsheet for your own needs. What you probably want to be looking at is not that page anyways, but the economics page - seagulls are about the most expensive thing you can fire out there, but if you want to take down the gunship, you'll probably need them. The gunship should carry plenty of loot, so you shouldn't worry too much about breaking even on it. I didn't make the spreadsheet to min-max/optimize; that's on you if you want to do the calculations.
If you can, manufacture the spike rockets. Cost per damage is much better for manufacturing.