OpenXcom Forum
Modding => Released Mods => XPiratez => Topic started by: Dioxine on May 25, 2016, 03:53:53 am
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So. Do you think grenades & other timed explosives are OP? Is this why Meridian is refraining from using them? :) Surely there are a few things as sure in this game as grenades.
Cutting to the chase, OXCE allows setting a 'dud chance' for any timed explosive. Would a 'dud chance' in 5-10% range help to balance the grenades? Or are they fine as they are?
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IMO grenades as is are well balanced. I do know that i tend to cut back on grenade usage later in a game when i have more high quality precise weapons and more options. Grenades are very much needed as an "oh shit" response since they pack huge punch for weight/space. Most gals are using the majority of weight for primary weapon, armor and supporting items for there role. Not alot of space and weight left to handle unexpected heavy units or big packs. Especially early game where your gals are relatively few in number because of transport size.
I know for certain that i've had the campaign be in a win/lose situation on one grenade several times. Dud potential....not good feeling.
I do have an issue with pre primed grenades being a little too useful. Being able to negate the TU drawback of grenades at the risk of blowing up when downed is not balanced. Outside of reaction fire the gals are rarely at direct risk. Most of the time we are takeing so much care to avoid getting shot at all since any damage is days/weeks/months off the line, that wandering around with armed explosives on the belt is of trivial concern. Sorta insane from a real world perspective.
Most explosives are actually exceptionally reliable we just use so many that the duds add up. Also nobody takes any special note when they work correctly. "Bad news travels fast" sort of phenomenon.
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Any chance of having them explode when the timer runs down, even if they're in the inventory? Because that's how I thought it worked way way back. Which opens up new deadman's switches which do only explode when dropped but can't be thrown. I would have once put this suggestion down to fantasy but it's amazing what I've already seen.
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@legionof1: I do not condone the use of pre-primed grenades (even though it really reduces the first turn chores)... but it's certainly a major balancing factor. w/o pre-priming I lean towards the opinion that grenades are just fine. With pre-priming, I reckon a dud chance of 10% would balance it off. With instant grenades, a dud chance of circa 50% would be needed to make the grenades at least resemble balanced (or 20% dud chance and throw TU cost doubled).
@Blank: this is a hard one. I know the code can be added but some items are exploiting the current mechanics (smoke grenades & stasis grenades on dead-man switches). But if that was somehow managed, the 'timer running down unless the grenade is held in hand' sounds like a very good idea. Would even render 'instant grenades' much less OP, and completely eliminate any unbalancing caused by pre-priming :)
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I don't think they are OP, nor that Meridian refrains from using them. When he does, he almost always relies on "chaining tactics" to get it further than from the first soldier. I think the decently high TU cost as is on Timed grenades is fine. I has nerfed them down from the almost instant solution that they were in vanilla. As it is, because of the TU cost I use MUCH fewer grenades than I did with vanilla, but then again, my Options are MUCH more varied. Your instant grenade alternatives (black powders, etc) are very good and go a long way to making up for the grenade nerf. Even with their limited range they are often potent options.
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Um, grenades in Piratez haven't been nerfed in any way, they're 100% vanilla (except for Energy cost of throwing). I'm saying Meridian isn't using them since he maybe uses 1 per mission, maybe none at all. I'm using 1-2 each turn. Then again, I'm not using bows, so grenades are my arcing weapon of choice; also I'm using 75%+ crew as assault squads, while Meridian uses 75%+ as snipers, hence maybe he doesn't need grenades :). Instant explosives are indispensable too, but you need to be in range.
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They dont seem OP to me at all. In fact in rarely use them, apart from randomly using Dynamite on high-armour foes to exploit weak bottom armour + high power charges combination.
Also, syberia base seems unbeatable without a substantial amount of high-power explosives, satchel charges (and rpg/rocket). If anything, that speaks volumes about the difficulty of syberia instead of the power of explosives.
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I dont bother using grenades as much as XCom because for some reason the effect is less. HE grenades suck. I might consider using Frag but IMHO it is fairly useless as well. Alien Grenades are overkill against some factions and crap against others. HE packs and Dynamites - varies. Used HE pack vs. Merc and no kill.
I use Willie Petes if it is dark and it supplements my inc shotgun and flares.
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duds on instant grenades would be.....painful. While realistically correct, blackpowder bombs and moltovs are one of the few tools available early that allow for the punch needed to fight anything with even moderate armor or significant numbers. Given that until one gets the bonny built you are outnumbered in nearly every case taking away the first few aoe tools....ouch. Early guns+scrub gals are a pretty bad situation. 50% failure rate on first aoe...also bad. That leaves 6 gals trying to melee down a map. In time of the game you cant afford to replace loses.
TU increase is reasonable and warranted.
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I think grenades are fine without pre-priming... it does make a big difference. My first time trying Sibera base (Gauss tech, Heavy/Def armor) I got annihilated (9/12) because I couldn't kill enough heavies before they killed me and I didn't know about pre-priming. (stupid nukes...) The second attempt, I only lost 1 gal because I basically spammed 12 HEs/Satchels and created a wasteland.
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I don't like the idea of a 'dud chance'. If grenades were to be nerfed, I'd prefer pretty much any other kind of nerf. Here are some possibilities which come to mind.
* Make them rarer and more expensive.
* Reduce the damage.
* Increase the weight.
* Change how throwing accuracy works, so that it is harder to make them land in the right place (especially for long distance).
I don't have a strong opinion about whether or not they are too powerful, but I just don't like the idea of a dud chance.
I don't pre-prime damaging grenades, because I don't want my soldier to kill them-self on their own grenade if they become unconscious - and I don't want the grenade to blow up all my equipment if the soldier dies. So I only pre-prime some smoke grenades and knock-out grenades. For damaging grenades, I tend to use a grenade relay. (Prime with one soldier, then throw with a different soldier.)
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duds on instant grenades would be.....painful. While realistically correct, blackpowder bombs and moltovs are one of the few tools available early that allow for the punch needed to fight anything with even moderate armor or significant numbers. Given that until one gets the bonny built you are outnumbered in nearly every case taking away the first few aoe tools....ouch. Early guns+scrub gals are a pretty bad situation. 50% failure rate on first aoe...also bad. That leaves 6 gals trying to melee down a map. In time of the game you cant afford to replace loses.
When talking about 'instant' I didn't mean the bp bombs & molotovs. These have increased throw times and limited range, which balances them pretty nicely, no dud possibility needed (or indeed possible - only timed explosives and proxy explosives have the 'dud' option accessible; molotovs are basically 1-shot guns). I meant the 'instant grenades' option, and resulting 3x HE pack throw / soldier w/instant detonation on the first turn :)
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I have it turned off, which is the recommended setting for piratez I believe. That one does seem unbalanced, because you know instantly if the enemy survived, and you can shape the terrain and use it on the same turn, without the constraints of bp or stick grenades.
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I have instant grenades turned off on my playthrough.
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I do not like dud chance, but I recon that soldiers with good reactions should have a chance to avoid the incoming potato. This is not possible without a good rewrite of the grenade timer but I have been thinking of this.
If you throw a grenade with a 0 timer, every soldiers within a range will check for reactions and TU.
If one succeed a 'Grenade!' warning is shown and the timer is set to 1, representing the soldiers running away.
Otherwise I do not find grenades to be OP, neither in vanilla or in piratez.
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I kind of like the dud idea, but only as a rare event to surprise the player rather than an issue to be constantly worried about. Something like:
frag grenade: 1%
dynamite: 3%
hellerium grenade: 0%
I'm just cruel like that. :)
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So. Do you think grenades & other timed explosives are OP? Is this why Meridian is refraining from using them? :) Surely there are a few things as sure in this game as grenades.
Cutting to the chase, OXCE allows setting a 'dud chance' for any timed explosive. Would a 'dud chance' in 5-10% range help to balance the grenades? Or are they fine as they are?
They are not OP (unless you turn instant grenades on).
I am not using them, because:
1. they create smoke -- I (visually) HATE smoke!!
2. they destroy loot -- don't know if that has been changed in any way in piratez, but I didn't care enough to test it
I do use both grenades and smoke if I must (for example a few episodes from now in a Merc's mission), but I generally avoid them. I just like guns and bows more.
I don't think duds are necessary... they would just increase/create frustration.
Um, grenades in Piratez haven't been nerfed in any way, they're 100% vanilla (except for Energy cost of throwing). I'm saying Meridian isn't using them since he maybe uses 1 per mission, maybe none at all. I'm using 1-2 each turn. Then again, I'm not using bows, so grenades are my arcing weapon of choice; also I'm using 75%+ crew as assault squads, while Meridian uses 75%+ as snipers, hence maybe he doesn't need grenades :). Instant explosives are indispensable too, but you need to be in range.
Yes, I was using people mostly as snipers... this might change with view range 40... not sure, only played a few missions so far. One of them was a Pogrom against Spartans... and I have to say, the mission is much easier with view range 40 than it was with view range 20. I like :-)
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I never really use grenades - high time cost, hard to use against an enemy under a roof or down a long corridor, danger of blowing yourself up, can't be sure if it worked or not until the end of the turn... I prefer grenade launchers, RPGs, a mortar on the roof of my ship, or any shooty-gun heavy-duty enough to kill armored foes.
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I do use both grenades and smoke if I must (for example a few episodes from now in a Merc's mission), but I generally avoid them. I just like guns and bows more.
I gotta love this comment. Everyone is using something else and there is no 'only good way' :) It's great that bows are finally an alternative to grenades (after several nerfammer hits & adding the only & true Longbow). I like grenades purely emotionally - I just love when things go up in a massive explosion that sets everything on fire :) (if such a move isn't stupid, which is, in reality, very often)
I fully agree that missions go faster now. Not sure about the balance yet, but the ability to quickly scout all the map, and actually use vantage points to do so more effectively is great (vantage points were almost meaningless for scouting with 20 view range). Otoh, there is a lot of fire levelled at you, which feels more real-like. My only gripe is the AI: double the vision but still too stupid to not be totally confused by smoke :) It's a real pain - smokescreens are essential in war, but the stupidity of AI makes smoke much more effective than it should be.
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Yeah the ai is unfortunately a mental cripple when it comes to line of sight as well as a few other aspects. Ai design is always a sticky problem since the ai is "the game" and has all the knowledge of everything that occurs unless specifically curtailed. Curtail to much and your ai is an idiot. To little restraint and its a god that is only beat by breaking the game. Neither situation is good but the idiot ai is more tolerable to a greater number of players.
I can count on one hand the number of games that managed a balanced ai in an manner that wasn't fully scripted puppeteer. In 25 years.
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I gotta love this comment. Everyone is using something else and there is no 'only good way' :)
Yes, I do the opposite of Meridian. I use tons and tons of smoke and assault gals, it should be obvious in the screen shots of my series as tiles not covered with smoke are on fire.
I don't preprime grenades, but gals that are expected to throw one are dedicated to it for a turn, staying immobile and tossing it over the front line gal. The grenadier then moves to the front and the other gal take her turn at grenade duty.
I don't find that more op than, let's say, snipers on the Bonny, machine guns or snap shots spam from around a corner.
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Well, it seems like the general idea is already set on grenades not needing a nerf, but I'd almost go further: I think they are not worth it.
Priming grenades takes a LOT of TUs, what's that hi-tech timer thing? a swiss clock you have to calibrate? I wish we had some simple "pull the pin and throw" grenades instead. Most of the time, you can barely take a few steps after prime+throw, compared to molotovs and bombs, it feels very restrictive. As such, I use dynamite almost exclusively for damage, to take out heavy opposition (power armor guys and tanks usually get a few on one turn, to make 90+% sure they'll die).
You get more range with throwables, which somewhat lowers the need to take those extra steps, but 90% of the time it ends up in a grenade chain, and who, realistically, goes: "Here friend! A live grenade for you! Have fun!!" and means it? I try to avoid grenade chains because they feel wrong to me, which means grenades aren't worth it. HE and Frags would be okish starting weapons, but as opposed to bombs, you won't know until too late if that Osiron/Marsec dude died or not, so I go for the safe option: Bombs until they're down or hide and melee/bombs next turn. In theory, you could grenade + hide then check again, but if you hide, might as well not waste the explosive and just use the hide+melee/bombs next turn tactic..
The only 1x1 grenades I use are smoke and stun grenades. Both are pre-primed in my gals' inventory for quick use that feels a lot more like "pull the pin and throw". And if the gal goes down, well it's a cloud of smoke (which was probably needed since she got shot) and a bunch of stun (which doesn't do much at all), so who cares? Carrying around pre-primed explosives is too risky to me, even though realistically I rarely lose a gal and even more rarely get one stunned but not killed, so it could be worth it. It's just that, once again, who realistically walks with a bunch of explosives that, if dropped, will blow them up?
The final reason is overkill and loot damage, which is shared with bombs so not quite the same issue, but further reason to use guns/bows/melee to kill stuff instead of explosives.
So in the end, it's not that people self-nerf using them because they are so strong, but that there isn't really much of a need for them. One of the major use of high explosives in vanilla is also cyberdiscs, which are handily dispatched with (heavy) flamethrowers as well (and you can often do it in such a way that avoids return fire thanks to the arcing trajectory of the flamethrowers)
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So, if you set a grenade timer to zero and are still holding onto it at the end of your turn, it doesn't go off?
I'd complain about this being an important feature that should be explained to the player, but most of the rest of the game is like that too... Maybe I should read the original X-Com manual some time - I assume I got that when I bought it off GoG...
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So, if you set a grenade timer to zero and are still holding onto it at the end of your turn, it doesn't go off?
The timer doesn't start until the device is on the ground. Timer settings are 2 per round. Timer 0 is the end of your turn. Timer 1 is end of the enemy's turn (you are psychic and know where they will be, don't you? ;)). Etc. Timer 2 and higher are really about setting a timer on something that will explode really big and you need time to run from (Crate of Violence, Nuclear Demo Charges, etc).
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I wouldnt say grenades are useless, but they get outdone pretty quickly.
Early on, Black Powder is good. Then Frag is good (HEGren is not good ever to me). I rarely use Smoke and i very, very rarely use Poison Gas and Stun. Instead i use AC with Gas ammo and a handle....because they are more effective...
Hel Grenades are really good, but since they are limited i usually hoard them instead of actually using them...
Tear Gas looks awesome (tm) on paper, but in reality it is really awkward to use because of the limited range. If instead of range 2, aoe 2 it would have 3/2 or even 3/3, it would be way better and useful.
I occasionally use stuff like Dynamite to throw around and i use HExpoand Satchel versus tanks and cyberdiscs, if i dont have enough RPGs and/or cant exit the Bonna.
Midgame basicly every gal is carrying either Dynamite/HExpo in their belt or RPG with HEAT in their backpack, but RPGs get used way more than Explosives.
This is my opinion.
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A possibility is to have the non timer explosives be less stable, they are more likely to cook off if an explosion happens nearby. So more dangerous to the user but easier to use with instant feedback, or far safer for the user but harder to use.
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Personally i dont like attaching any Kind of RNG to grenades. Having them blow off at the wrong time RANDOMLY seems like a really bad decision to add as a "Feature".
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I agree. More likely players would stop using grenades except smoke.
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I don't think it would be random, just they'd go off if the person holding them was in an explosion, therefore extremely dangerous to carry but still having the instant boom. But it would be a major change, and likely mirrors reality too much.