OpenXcom Forum

Modding => Released Mods => XPiratez => Topic started by: AncientSion on May 11, 2016, 12:20:49 pm

Title: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: AncientSion on May 11, 2016, 12:20:49 pm
Since i have been playing this mod for some time now, i have noticed that the difficulty curve seems seems to be kind of wrong. Normally in a game, you would expect the game to be easy early on and get progressesivly harder as ingame time passes, while actual play time and with it, experience, partly offsets the increasing difficulty of mid and end game.

With Piratez, i have this impression that the game is actually at its hardest early on, but it becomes easier with every passed months due to first and foremost better Gals and then better equiment / weapons. With the exception of certain terror missions, depending on RNG - faction, and map type -, it becomes rather "easy" in fact.

My questions are:
1 - do you agree with this observation ?
2 - is this experience actually intended by Diox ?
3 - If not, what can be done to introduce a "proper" difficulty curve ?
     -> my idea:
          - Gal' stats, especially TU gain, should be cut down considerably
          - introduce some kind of gun tech progression over time to enemies, similarish to how the stock game handles it.
          - Perhaps consider some kind of armageddon clock, i.e. a powerful timer that puts the player under time pressure in a way that will force you to actually move forward at some point, instead of researching EVERYTHING

I would like to hear your opinions on the topic.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Ketonur on May 11, 2016, 12:28:35 pm
Just play some more until you meet mercenaries or star gods ;)
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Dioxine on May 11, 2016, 01:05:13 pm
Yeah, rack the difficulty up until the player is too tired to play anymore. Great idea, sir, great idea. Most games actually eventually fall on their ass because of this (looking at you, Borderlands, Space Nomad, et al). The most primitive difficulty curve isn't neccesarily the best one, since it robs you of any feeling of accomplishment and turns the game into an unforgiving grind which can work only for a roguelike or a top-down shooter. Let's better think of games which handle the difficulty curve in a more intricate manner, like Half Life 2.

Also what enemy tech progression in the OG... from plasma rifle to heavy plasma in under 5 seconds? lol.

Radically changing gals' stat caps would influence the tactics in such a major way it's not even worth discussing. If you feel uncomfortable with high movement rates, play another mod, where the game is balanced for more static tactics. High movement is crucial for melee and assorted heroics.

And yeah, how far into the game did you make anyway? Are you getting constant crackdowns already? Do you feel comfortable facing VIPs and their plasma or gauss-totting entourages? Are Mercs and Star Gods no longer a threat? Also what difficulty level are you playing since the challenge changes considerably?
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Mattdo on May 11, 2016, 01:08:51 pm
While the mercenaries and star gods are tough, you don't seem to meet them much more in the late game than in the early game. I'm in the late game now and I'd love to fight some more challenging opponents, but they're hard to find, and I keep getting distracted by lower-ranking foes. (I feel compelled to assault any ship I shoot down...)

I quite like the fact that the game doesn't just scale up automatically - you don't get generally into a situation where things are hopeless four years in because you didn't research the right things and are now behind the curve. (I've put so much time and effort into this one playthrough that I will be pretty indignant if I don't ultimately win.)

I wouldn't want to cut back on the turn unit gain or anything like that. (Power armored units are slow enough as it is.) But I would like it if the opposition responded to your efforts a little more. Early on, Sway Local Government (and Crackdowns) should be rare because you haven't antagonised anyone enough to motivate that kind of effort, making it easier to survive the difficult early game. Later on, capturing a mercenary base could lead to a greater frequency of hostile mercenaries; capturing enemy leaders could cause more Star Gods to appear.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Boltgun on May 11, 2016, 04:47:53 pm
Quote
Normally in a game, you would expect the game to be easy early on and get progressesivly harder as ingame time passes, while actual play time and with it, experience, partly offsets the increasing difficulty of mid and end game.

All games are different. Did you try vanilla x-com?
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 11, 2016, 04:56:27 pm
I think difficulty curve shouldn't be steeper than it has to be to maintain the intended kind of gameplay. The question is, can it be any more benign in Piratez or not.
Instead of a long dissertation trying to decide that, I'd rather remind everyone that the earliest game is currently being rebuilt, so any point can soon become moot after a week or two. Once it's out, we can discuss it.
On a side note, Piratez is not a game but a mod. This means the player is expected to know the basics.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Cristao on May 11, 2016, 05:26:45 pm
On a side note, Piratez is not a game but a mod. This means the player is expected to know the basics.

I agree
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Dioxine on May 11, 2016, 05:32:42 pm
While the mercenaries and star gods are tough, you don't seem to meet them much more in the late game than in the early game. I'm in the late game now and I'd love to fight some more challenging opponents, but they're hard to find, and I keep getting distracted by lower-ranking foes. (I feel compelled to assault any ship I shoot down...)

Well, they don't appear in Year 1 much, so they don't really appear in the early game  :) And going after low-ranking enemies is quite pointless in the late game... (unless for fun!). But yeah there are plans to rack up the heat in the late game. As with everything it can't just materialize overnight though.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: ivandogovich on May 11, 2016, 05:43:47 pm
I generally agree that the difficulty curve with PirateZ starts with Hard (representing horribly backward tech) then gets better from there.  Scavenge better weapons, become more lethal.  Experienced gals become faster and better.  Certain armor levels reduce the risk significantly.

A great example of this curve overall, is the abandoned campaign by https://www.youtube.com/user/FireWaterGasoline.  Over 5 episodes on YouTube he lost the campaign twice to early crackdowns.  Fundamentally his xcom tactics in ground battles were solid, though as a blind playthrough there was certainly inefficient utilization of weapons.  His downfall was the irresistible tendency to shoot down anything that flies.  This is typical from someone used to playing UFO or TftD.  Its things like these that the first time PirateZ player must un-learn, that make them throw up their hands and walk away like this YouTuber did.

Frankly, from following forum discussions etc over the years, I don't think I would ever recommend that any New Player try PirateZ on a blind playthrough unless they are willing to savescum.  I'd recommend using the wiki, though I wouldn't go so far as some of the Cheats that I have seen in discussed as some players have reconnoitered the mod with SuperUBER Soldiers.

And yeah, I agree that I'm discuss it from the current state of the mod that in the past two years has only gotten harder in the early game (timed supply ship missions, combat stress, hammer nerfs, etc).  The development that is being done on the back story may help this early game balance significantly, but that is yet to be seen (heh. if its anything like what I've heard about x-com files, it maybe even Harder!). 
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Dioxine on May 11, 2016, 05:49:09 pm
And yeah, I agree that I'm discuss it from the current state of the mod that in the past two years has only gotten harder in the early game (timed supply ship missions, combat stress, hammer nerfs, etc).

Harder? Really? :) Let's recap 2 most probable first missions from old times:
- Gunship. 20+ enemies, 100% Personal Armor, all laser weapons.
- Mutant Pogrom. Everyone and their dog has laser weapons, you can also easily meet tanks, cyberdiscs, Powered Armor...
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: AncientSion on May 11, 2016, 06:14:09 pm
Yeah, rack the difficulty up until the player is too tired to play anymore. Great idea, sir, great idea. Most games actually eventually fall on their ass because of this (looking at you, Borderlands, Space Nomad, et al). The most primitive difficulty curve isn't neccesarily the best one, since it robs you of any feeling of accomplishment and turns the game into an unforgiving grind which can work only for a roguelike or a top-down shooter. Let's better think of games which handle the difficulty curve in a more intricate manner, like Half Life 2.

Also what enemy tech progression in the OG... from plasma rifle to heavy plasma in under 5 seconds? lol.

Radically changing gals' stat caps would influence the tactics in such a major way it's not even worth discussing. If you feel uncomfortable with high movement rates, play another mod, where the game is balanced for more static tactics. High movement is crucial for melee and assorted heroics.

And yeah, how far into the game did you make anyway? Are you getting constant crackdowns already? Do you feel comfortable facing VIPs and their plasma or gauss-totting entourages? Are Mercs and Star Gods no longer a threat? Also what difficulty level are you playing since the challenge changes considerably?

I dont like your hostile attitude (again) one bit.

You dont want feedback, fine.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: ivandogovich on May 11, 2016, 06:15:14 pm
Harder? Really? :) Let's recap 2 most probable first missions from old times:
- Gunship. 20+ enemies, 100% Personal Armor, all laser weapons.
- Mutant Pogrom. Everyone and their dog has laser weapons, you can also easily meet tanks, cyberdiscs, Powered Armor...

Ok. Point taken. There has been a number of easy enemies added. Bandits, etc.  Personal Armor has been reduced too.  I will still assert that any number of nerfs have been included though, to keep it tough. 
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: hellrazor on May 11, 2016, 06:52:03 pm
Hm.. shameless self advertisement.

If you really want a relatively steep difficulty curve try this (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,3550.0.html)

And sorry for intruding here.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Arthanor on May 11, 2016, 07:10:29 pm
lol @hellrazor's shameless shameful plug. Yeah, if you want to know what "too hard" is, try his mod! And I think it stays too hard the whole time, so it's a difficulty line instead of curve, all at the "Why am I doing this to myself" level ;)

Back on topic:
Hard in the early game? Ivan, you need to rewatch your Piratez LP! I started at the same time you did (because I didn't want you to spoiler me but wanted to watch you, so I had to play!) This was brutal mayhem! And I don't think it was at a particularly high difficulty setting. Neither were mine and I remember pogroms being truly terrifying and decent armors being impossible to find, with none of the outfits we now have to support the gals in their intended roles even at the beginning. Remember everybody in Pirate or Runts? Like.. the two worse outfits out of the current selection?

Admittedly, I have played too much early game Piratez with all my reboots. But still, currently, most of the early enemy factions pack guns that will struggle to kill you (I play.. Davy Jones I think? Just under what used to be superhuman) unless a shotgun/machine gun trooper gets the jump on you at close range. Once you get to 35-40 armor (metal/tac armor), you're pretty safe from dying, so your gals are on the rise with training.

Compared to when we started, most of the enemies also got nerfed with all the non-combat traders/church/academy (which is great for the first month!) and the introduction of "easy" enemies (spartans, bandits and I feel humanists are more common too). Even the new mansion mission helps the early game: You can't bring much so you will hardly be at a tech disadvantage whatever you bring (you can smash peoples' head with pipes well enough to clean the place up). The reward? Loads of cash, and lots of reading, including Old Earth Books to make sure you can go Back to School! There goes that choke-point, welcome to early mid-game.

To me, Piratez is just right. The beginning is challenging because you have to make a lot of decisions and you are at the mercy of the RNG to get good missions (and no retals, but you quickly find out how to avoid those). In my latest game, I got all combat academy in my first month and only ever saw Osiron security and laser drones (and a pogrom: Bandits were refreshing!). And I was fine, if bored by the lack of variety. This was mostly due to knowing my weapon selection well (molotovs pwn drones, bombs/flamethrower/melee for osiron), and the amazing variety of outfits which really allowed me to tailor the gals to what I wanted every one to do.

OH! and PARROTS, those things are OP as hell in the early game. Super fast expendable flying scout? I think you could nerf pretty much everything in the early game, buff every enemy and the single addition of the parrot would make it easier than it used to be, as long as you leave a decent gun (for scout-snipe) and a melee weapon (for armor). Remember when you had to scout with slow, walking gals and getting them killed was a hit on your morale, not just a "Damn! Gotta ask the runts to get me a new pet again...". Dogs were a boon, parrots? They're.. a miracle.. or more like a pact with the devil for power that should not be attainable. (I self-nerf for only 1 parrot/transport now)

I'm not saying the early game is too easy (although I am at least very comfortable in it at the 2nd highest difficulty) but it is not too hard either. To me, hard was mid-game when I started to encounter gauss and mercs. Those guys don't go down, looting their own guns isn't a great tactic since they are ap resistant, and gauss will mess up a gal even in power armor/advanced tac armor. Suddenly, I was back to playing carefully and mistakes costing me. In fact, mistakes cost me even more than in the early game. Loose a newish gal in guerilla armor? Meh, you can hire another one and make her a new outfit easily. Lose a veteran in defender armor? That's a lot more tricky to replace. Then you get star gods, which will do all kinds of nasty things to you (and make you do them to yourself) even if you don't make mistakes, with their invisibility and MC.

And finally, on explody supply ships: That's not an early game issue. Early game the odds of aliens having bases around to supply are pretty slim. And you don't really have to attack Supply Ships any ways. Supply ship farming is something Dioxine is specifically unfavourable to and I tend to agree with him (it makes no sense in universe for a faction to continuously send vulnerable assets that get taken over by the enemy). That it is still available as a high risk, medium reward (baby nukes and gauss are great loot!) is still pretty good.

Piratez is not easy, that's why it says somewhere that it's for people who beat vanilla, beat it again, got bored of it and are looking for something new. It's definitely not the first thing one should try (and especially not on Superhuman to be like all the cool LP'ers). But I'd say it's fair and it's best played blind. Even after more than a year of playing it, I try to avoid spoilers (had to stop watching Meridian :() because the surprises are part of the challenge, and the challenge is part of the fun.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: a0kribu on May 11, 2016, 09:14:20 pm
I dont like your hostile attitude (again) one bit.

You dont want feedback, fine.

I don't think Dioxine does that hostile-like. I am pretty sure that the person is very straightforward and addresses everyone in this forum just like they were addressing a friend. If I was you I'd take it as a compliment. :)


As for the difficulty curve. It's very much on par the original game. The late game isn't easier, just the problems you solve are different.
Amount of one-shot-kills increases and the price of mistakes goes up.
Ditto for the difficulty settings by the way. If you choose Jack Sparrow you need to cherry-pick your opposition more carefully but you have a wider variety of alien tech you get exposed to, you get to pick from a bigger pool of enemy leaders and you get more money to expand/recruit/whatever.

Try completing the game in the easiest setting. You won't even get fourth cydonia key in the first four years.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: legionof1 on May 11, 2016, 10:44:48 pm
I think the curve is in exactly the right place for this type of game. We are playing a game form the early era of game design where it was still a pretty binary design philosophy. Set player a fair but hard challenge. He solves it or doesn't. The player is meant to out think the game and gets too win as a reward. So yeah downward curve is expected. It is the correct curve for the genre. 
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Eddie on May 12, 2016, 12:46:02 am
Difficulty is a bit binary in my opinion. Shippings can be very easy, lots of enemies with weak guns. On the other hand you can get deadly base assaults where everybody one shots you with plasma and blaster launchers.
Shippings could have a few more deadly guns like RPG or recoilless rifle, but just on one or two guys to give you something to watch out for.
Early base assaults would be more balanced with a less deadly weapon loadout. Like HE LACC, which is annoying but not a 1 shot kill. There might be engine limitations preventing different loadouts though.

Anyway, if new early game will start with an airbus that can't do aircombat, possible base assaults will be pushed back a few month so this reduces that problem.

What I would personally like to see is some more bandit missions (but maybe without armored cars or some weaker version, like a technical). The most enjoyable mission I've had so far was fighting bandits in a slum. I like the slum terrain and the deserted city, I wish they were used more often. To me, the most fun aspect of xcom is tactical use of terrain destruction. Slum has a lot of easy to destroy walls.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Arthanor on May 12, 2016, 03:31:27 am
Fighting bandits is indeed fun. There's something that's just right about them. And while I don't think item levels need to be implemented throughout the game, having them for base defenses would be good.

Hideout defense in month one? The enemy comes in with LACCs, Light/Auto-Cannons, Spitfires, etc. Then lasers, gauss and plasma. The outfit the retaliation team with tools proportional with the threat that they expect to encounter. You don't bust out the weapons of the (star) gods for some wannabe pirate with muskets in a scavenged ship..

Of course, that would also require faction specific weaponry: Academy never show up with anything under lasers, Mercs under gauss, and Star Gods under plasma. I suspect it's doable by defining 4 itemlevels, and upgrading something like every 6 months. For retaliations, the weapons scale, for everything else, the weapons don't change much (you don't have enough of a global effect to force every shipping to get plasma weapons, unlike how in vanilla eventually every alien had a heavy plasma).
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Dioxine on May 12, 2016, 05:22:20 am
It ain't that easy to do. First off, tech levels got shafted because I'm using them to give enemies random weapons instead. With 5 loadouts per enemy, I'm stretching the limit (10 positions in the matrix, currently cut into 3/3/2/1/1 chances in 10). Up-tech would mean less variety & less realism (like, in late game, every Spartan would be totting an RPG etc.). So tech levels are rather unuseable. What's more irking is that the tech levels affect everyone, and it's not always the best weapons that are on the top (eg. Mercs sometimes have Gauss Pistols as the 'best' weapon since I want them to have just 10% to use such a small gun, and 90% to carry Gauss musket/sniper/heavy...)

As for easier retals... Re-configuring current ones is rather out of question I think. Yankes' code makes it possible to tie weapon loadout to a race, but it would mean having to make them, and they're long lists. Repeated x6 since they need to be consistent between breaching ships and the hideout defense proper. I could make a new type of retal, but retals related to shooting pick a random type of retal mission. So no candy here. All I could make would be to add some extra, automatic retal but that'd be just mean :) You can acquire 'no plasma' only by using just terror units, but that's plausible, again, only for hardcore races like Star Gods...
This I want to solve 3-fold:
1. No possibility of air combat in month 1, nor any fast troop deployment required to catch normal landings in any number above 4-6 troops (later - dependant on the player and RNG);
2. Many ground targets to have something to do meanwhile;
3. Special crackdowns late-game. This is more of a difficulty hike move, to keep the player from falling asleep year 2+.

The conclusion is, better leave the retals as all-or-nothing affairs...

@Hellrazor: no worries about self-advertising :)
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: hellrazor on May 12, 2016, 08:48:51 am
Dioxine, if you fear long lists i recommend shortening them significantely by using YAML anchors. Especially for stuff like terraindefinitions and weaponloadouts. Even more if you wanna be race specific forthe weaponloadouts. If you like i can later post you a example on howto usethem.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Dioxine on May 12, 2016, 11:55:30 am
Yeah I'd like that, this stuff can go pretty crazy.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: karadoc on May 12, 2016, 11:58:33 am
... going after low-ranking enemies is quite pointless in the late game...
I'm still in my first playthrough. I'm currently at a stage where most of my troops are wearing either Assault armour or Brute armour. My weapons aren't great, but they are easily good enough for most of enemies I face - and so I usually use my cheaper weapons (such as commando rifle and advanced lasgun) rather than my more expensive more powerful weapons.

So, that's the stage of the game I'm at. I figure it's getting into "late game", but I can't really know until I've finished! In any case, what I can say is that I'm still going after lots of low-ranking enemies just because it's easy money, and I'm still spending all the money I can get. Most of the missions I go on are super-easy to the point where I can just move all my troops blindly forward and stun the enemy with whatever, because the enemies don't have enough firepower to get through my armour anyway.

There are still difficult missions; and I'm happy with the number of difficult missions per in-game month. But I can say that the game feels easier than it did in the early game, because a lot of my playing time is on easy missions (which I choose to go on because I need the cash).
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: hellrazor on May 12, 2016, 09:45:18 pm
Yeah I'd like that, this stuff can go pretty crazy.

Check your PM inbox here in the forum.

Some more examples to usage of YAML anchors can be found:
here (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,4572.msg63613.html#msg63613)
and
here (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,4572.msg63629.html#msg63629)

Or you just go ahead and take a look at the ruleset of my mod.
research.rul, alienDeployments.rul and terrains.rul make a high usage of YAML anchors.

Once you understand it you will love it. Hobbes does already ^^
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Meridian on May 14, 2016, 06:25:11 pm
A great example of this curve overall, is the abandoned campaign by https://www.youtube.com/user/FireWaterGasoline.  Over 5 episodes on YouTube he lost the campaign twice to early crackdowns.  Fundamentally his xcom tactics in ground battles were solid, though as a blind playthrough there was certainly inefficient utilization of weapons.  His downfall was the irresistible tendency to shoot down anything that flies.  This is typical from someone used to playing UFO or TftD.  Its things like these that the first time PirateZ player must un-learn, that make them throw up their hands and walk away like this YouTuber did.

I have added a new configuration possibility to delay retaliations (caused by shooting down ufos) based on difficulty.

For example:
Code: [Select]
difficultyBasedRetaliationDelay: [4, 2, 1, 0, 0]

...would mean that on Beginner, retaliations cannot be generated in the first 4 months, on Experienced first 2 months, on Veteran only 1 month and on Genius/Superhuman there is no delay.

Default is of course zero on all difficulty levels.

I strongly suggest considering this option in piratez base game.

Also during testing I found one more nasty bug, which CONFIRMS that retaliations are generated more than they should: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,4637.0.html
This basically means that chance on Superhuman is not 20%, but potentially 36%... i.e. more than each third shot down ufo generates a retaliation...
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Dioxine on May 14, 2016, 09:40:58 pm
I strongly suggest considering this option in piratez base game.

Might be useful indeed. But first retaliations will be delayed by other means (inability to shoot down anything in early game).
...Is Retaliation generated by the act of shooting down an UFO or by simply engaging it?
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Meridian on May 15, 2016, 12:13:25 am
Might be useful indeed. But first retaliations will be delayed by other means (inability to shoot down anything in early game).
...Is Retaliation generated by the act of shooting down an UFO or by simply engaging it?

It must be shot down to trigger retal... just engaging has no effect.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: karadoc on May 15, 2016, 12:45:31 am
Having a couple of months of immunity from retaliations would be alright; but it seems like a bit of a kludge. I think it would be better if there was a 'retaliation-o-meter' which built up in a similar way to how reputation builds up. Shooting down shipping and/or killing ground forces would build up the enemy's desire to want to retaliate. And rather than having a flat random chance of retaliation for each shipping shot down, they could have a probability of retaliation which grows with each shipping that is destroyed; has a threshold so that the probability is zero for the first few events; and reduces naturally a little bit each day.

Of course, that's probably not super easy to implement; and in most cases player's wouldn't be able to tell the difference between something like that and a flat percentage chance anyway. ... but I still think it's worth suggesting.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Manunancy on May 15, 2016, 08:57:16 am
and hope the software allow for the odds to drop back after the reataliation hits or if you keep quiet
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Dioxine on May 15, 2016, 12:32:51 pm
I think it would be better if there was a 'retaliation-o-meter' which built up in a similar way to how reputation builds up.

Of course, that's probably not super easy to implement; and in most cases player's wouldn't be able to tell the difference between something like that and a flat percentage chance anyway. ... but I still think it's worth suggesting.

I don't think adding such a thing is a good idea at all. Is shooting down a single ship not a crime enough to send a Crackdown team? Definitely it is... the question is, do they take action or not. Hence the dice roll. What else is there to consider really than the set chance of that happening, taking all possible factors under a single number? What gain would there be from de-abstracting it? It's not like the player can influence this in any direct way.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: karadoc on May 15, 2016, 01:11:25 pm
One thing the player could do to influence it is to not attack dangerous factions multiple times in a row. And if you do pick on a particular faction, then that faction would be more likely to attack you (the probability vs shipping shot down would be super-linear).

Shooting down a single ship might be enough to warrant a crackdown; but you can imagine that they might only feel the need to devote those kind of resources if they feel that the problem is going to be ongoing rather than isolated. Also, they might not even know who you are if they've only been attacked by you once.


In any case, I don't really mind what the system is. If you don't like the idea, that's fine by me. I only suggested it as an alternative to having fix number of months of crackdown immunity at the start of the game. I generally prefer dynamic systems rather than hard-line immunity like that.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Dioxine on May 15, 2016, 02:38:51 pm
That's why I'm not planning on adding any immunity, maybe on the lowest diff level. Like I said, it will be a time before you'll get any interception-capable ship. If you're not ready by then, well, too bad.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Meridian on May 15, 2016, 04:13:01 pm
That's why I'm not planning on adding any immunity, maybe on the lowest diff level. Like I said, it will be a time before you'll get any interception-capable ship. If you're not ready by then, well, too bad.

Sounds good, maybe just add it in the meantime, until you get to this new style.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Dioxine on May 15, 2016, 04:24:57 pm
I think it is already fine, more or less. I will make a quick update after all (this week) which'll make it a bit harder to get H/K. However you can still intercept with Pachyderm or Jetbike, if you get enough cash to buy it and fancy an interception.
And the Skyranger... maybe I'll add it to Contact Mutant Alliance :) (which will enable Pogrom despawn penalties at the same time :) ). I must also say I'm quite enamoured of all these low-powered craft like Airbus, which can be beautifully constructed from Robin's Apocalypse tiles. It's all in a flux now.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: clownagent on May 15, 2016, 06:55:41 pm
A few suggestions to make the early game less frustrating:

1. There should spawn a lot more missions (both shipping and warehouses) which do not give a negative count if not intercepted. Sometimes one has to wait a long time without anything to do. For the mood it would be good, if much more small UFOs were flying around, even if you can't shoot them down. It makes the player eager to obtain a craft with which he can shoot them down. It would also feel more like a sprawling planet with lots of traffic.

2. Reduce the salary for the brainerz a bit. If you have one or two bad months without many missions their salary can drive you into bankruptcy. Sure, an experienced player knows that, but for a new player it is like a trap. If one want to keep research progress slow, the price for library etc could be increased.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Baldri on May 15, 2016, 08:18:19 pm
Sprawling? In my mind it is quiet a desolated place with only as much traffic as abolutely  needed and affordable. A wasteland so to say.  Sprawling would mean that the aliens are somewhat benefical which they aren't in my mind. Nuclear waste all over the place and with that radiation of course. Half destroyed cities. Reliance on heavy, dirty industries - not exactly that hightech. I think all the ships are leased from the gods. Why would they heavily invest in a slaveplanet? Rebuild it and so on? They would not invest more as absolutely needed to fulfill their needs as no slavebased society will ever do and Earth is quiet dependent in terms of Hellerium  which is not found on Earth. Also the foodsituation seems quiet desastrous considering all the soylent.

I also think 15 researchers is quiet enough to get through the game, so there would be no point in making the lib more expensive to slow research down.

Sorry, the word "sprawling" just triggered  that doesn't seem to fit for me.  ;D

Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: ivandogovich on May 15, 2016, 11:32:27 pm
I also think 15 researchers is quiet enough to get through the game, so there would be no point in making the lib more expensive to slow research down.

Heh and here I am looking at my save file and boggling at the almost 700 techs I've discovered and my 60 brainers on staff.  You think I overkilled it a bit then? June 25th, 2602 (2nd year).
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: AncientSion on May 16, 2016, 12:31:49 am
15 does indeed seem a bit low. Im currently on only 14 and can barely keep the tech list from growing at all while also. I guess you dont NEED 60 unless you want to research everything, but 15 seems too low in order to keep up with necesarry research.
Considering i have 17.000.000 stashed i could easily double or tripple my brainer count. Not sure i like to swim in money, but hey, the mod works like that i guess.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Baldri on May 16, 2016, 12:46:16 am
15 does indeed seem a bit low. Im currently on only 14 and can barely keep the tech list from growing at all while also. I guess you dont NEED 60 unless you want to research everything, but 15 seems too low in order to keep up with necesarry research.
Considering i have 17.000.000 stashed i could easily double or tripple my brainer count. Not sure i like to swim in money, but hey, the mod works like that i guess.

We need more numbers to determine whats overkill^^. I guess it is a more personal preference anyway.

And to be fair: I also like having 30. The number 15, the lab, was only considered moneywise.

Putting only one brainer at a topic also speeds up research btw, so even if you have to wait longer you do not waste any points by overspending. So 15 brainers doesn't equal 15 brainerz. It depends how you allocate them.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: legionof1 on May 16, 2016, 05:39:56 am
I think the optimal brainer count has more to do with difficulty then anything else. On a low difficulty your access to some bottleneck research topics is severely reduced as well as lower early income(less foes means less loot). In this case both your income and whats available at a given time are both reduced. 15-20 served my diff 2 campaign perfectly well and even had long periods of complete idleness. I couldn't afford to maintain many brainers and by the time i could it was a moot point as there was nothing much left to do.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: karadoc on May 16, 2016, 11:43:31 am
During my current (first) playthrough, at one stage I sacked a couple of brainers because 1) I could barely afford to keep them. 2) my research was just about to hit a bottle-neck. (I think I had around 13 at the time, and reduced it to 11.)

Not long after that, I finally captured an academy engineer, and the research tree opened up like a flower. Fortunately my financial situation improved a lot as well. I pretty quickly expanded my research team to 18, then started a new research base... Now I'm close to the end of the game, and I've been going along comfortably with ~29 brainers for awhile. I certainly won't need any more, because I'm running out of research topics.


In any case, I do think the high cost of brainers is a bit of a trap. But I don't think it should needs to be changed (I don't mind either way). If a player runs out of money, they can sack their brainers. No big deal.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Cristao on May 16, 2016, 11:56:18 am
15 brainerz is definitely too small. I used between 40 to 50 in my last two playthroughs.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Dioxine on May 17, 2016, 02:01:54 pm
A few suggestions to make the early game less frustrating:

1. There should spawn a lot more missions (both shipping and warehouses) which do not give a negative count if not intercepted. Sometimes one has to wait a long time without anything to do. For the mood it would be good, if much more small UFOs were flying around, even if you can't shoot them down. It makes the player eager to obtain a craft with which he can shoot them down. It would also feel more like a sprawling planet with lots of traffic.

2. Reduce the salary for the brainerz a bit. If you have one or two bad months without many missions their salary can drive you into bankruptcy. Sure, an experienced player knows that, but for a new player it is like a trap. If one want to keep research progress slow, the price for library etc could be increased.

1. Absolutely. The planet is vast and even though it's a poor one, the Fifth Element / Heavy Metal feel should be there (there was 450 or so years to rebuild the civilization after the Star Gods finished their business of 'aligning' it to their imperial template). I will even make a Space Bar... one day! I think a good idea is adding a lower-tier 'civilian' traffic that doesn't generate Crackdowns when shot down (more fun with LEGO's! Yay!).

2. Nah. The above will take care of that (you should be able to run almost double the number of current 'warehouse' missions on average monthly). Also I think keeping tabs on the number of brainers is an important aspect (teaches you not to overspend).

3. Not sure yet how to bottleneck the final tech progress (tier 1. attack marker sites -> tier 2. engage non-retal traffic and landings -> tier 3. engage warships). The final tiers of tech should require engaging warships, but not sure how to make it work (adding a rare component to all warships maybe...?) Also Plate Mail. Too Easy To Make...!
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Meridian on May 17, 2016, 02:11:26 pm
Also Plate Mail. Too Easy To Make...!

(https://images.all-free-download.com/images/graphiclarge/laughing_and_pointing_emoticon_312207.jpg)
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Dioxine on May 17, 2016, 02:35:24 pm
Thank Bloax for that ;)
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: legionof1 on May 17, 2016, 02:45:52 pm
Perhaps you could gate the final tier with a high tier "weapon" item with something like the frequency of blaster launchers? I don't like the idea of an object tied to the ship since large warships ships tend to take significant collateral damage to internal tiles because of the types of weapons involved. Both player and enemy.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Dioxine on May 17, 2016, 03:05:25 pm
d/w I can make it indestructible. But maybe a weapon is a better idea. Idk yet.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: dftruf on November 17, 2021, 02:58:22 am
I think that over 89% of experienced players quit very early from this mod because there is no controlling time pressure in-game skills or in-game knowledge. Even when You don't research !some_special_res! still there is too much linear and too much scripted rigid time pressure in this mod.
I think that roguelike players know what I mean very clearly.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Iazo on November 18, 2021, 05:04:49 pm
Until M1, I did not feel the time pressure at all. In fact, it would be quite easy to lollygag until close to Year 3 on any difficulty not Jack Sparrow.

Since M1, things changed a lot. Now it is way more difficult to lollygag, and there is only one way of dealing with the pressure, getting a goal and sticking to it. Unfortunately, for people not in the know what is, or is not a goal, they might suffer from unfocused playstyle that will ultimately grind their campaign to a halt no later than 9 months in.

That said, experienced players tend to know this stuff. And in any case, avoiding !stuff! Is basically the WORST thing you can do, so much so I'd consider it a newbie trap, not an experienced player rigid time control method or whatever.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: dftruf on November 18, 2021, 10:31:40 pm
Thank You for reply  :)
In my opinion this mod has huge potential to be more elastic with regard to time pressure, through proper knowledge and skills which can be obtained in the game, without spoilers, faqs, hidden knowledge from the deep internet.

When I've said "experienced players" I meant players experienced by general gaming (not only computer games). In my opinion those players have tendency to lessening time pressure by any means (but still in the game's world) when they feel that they must obtain more understanding, just to have more fun, without chasing technical stuff buried somewhere outside in the author's secret garden.


Until M1, I did not feel the time pressure at all. In fact, it would be quite easy to lollygag until close to Year 3 on any difficulty not Jack Sparrow.

Since M1, things changed a lot. Now it is way more difficult to lollygag, and there is only one way of dealing with the pressure, getting a goal and sticking to it. Unfortunately, for people not in the know what is, or is not a goal, they might suffer from unfocused playstyle that will ultimately grind their campaign to a halt no later than 9 months in.

That said, experienced players tend to know this stuff. And in any case, avoiding !stuff! Is basically the WORST thing you can do, so much so I'd consider it a newbie trap, not an experienced player rigid time control method or whatever.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: Iazo on November 19, 2021, 12:49:01 pm
Quote
When I've said "experienced players" I meant players experienced by general gaming (not only computer games). In my opinion those players have tendency to lessening time pressure by any means (but still in the game's world) when they feel that they must obtain more understanding, just to have more fun, without chasing technical stuff buried somewhere outside in the author's secret garden.

This is true, and Xpiratez subverts this expected trope quite heavily in the sense that lollygagging and avoiding progress hurts only yourself, it has a limited impact on world escalation. Moreover, advancing and opening up new oportunities DOES NOT close up old oportunities.

This problem is very reocurring, and we're having discussions constantly on how to make the player forget other gaming tropes.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: dftruf on November 19, 2021, 05:40:14 pm
Do You know how many files have to be modified to rescript time pressure in this mod?
Those scripts are compiled or in plain text?

...

This problem is very reocurring, and we're having discussions constantly on how to make the player forget other gaming tropes.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: legionof1 on November 20, 2021, 05:46:48 am
All the mod rules are in plain txt files. if you want to mess around with the time pressure aspect you will want to look at the missions.rul, and the tech spaghetti in the piratez. Good luck with your endeavor, the tech part is a massive monster.

Warning as always if you start messing about with mod on your own you may end up on your own when something breaks.
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: dftruf on November 20, 2021, 01:09:55 pm
Thanks for info.

Maybe I shouldn't modify those files because using spoilers and using save scumming is part of the game in this mod?
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: JustTheDude/CABSHEP on November 20, 2021, 05:39:01 pm
Thanks for info.

Maybe I shouldn't modify those files because using spoilers and using save scumming is part of the game in this mod?

Just "rush" base defences, better interceptors and tanks and you are pretty much golden. Only Star Gods and Mercenaries can give you a problem when they arrive if you achieve this.

No more spoilers and definatelly no save scumming required. 
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: dftruf on November 21, 2021, 12:26:57 am
Just "rush" base defences, better interceptors and tanks and you are pretty much golden. Only Star Gods and Mercenaries can give you a problem when they arrive if you achieve this.

No more spoilers and definatelly no save scumming required.

So there is just one linear way to finish the game?

Is there any open-ended way or option?
Title: Re: Piratez Difficulty Curve
Post by: legionof1 on November 21, 2021, 05:29:27 am
Additional routes are planned, and in one case partially finished but just the vanilla go to cydonia explode brain option is complete right now