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Modding => Released Mods => XPiratez => Topic started by: ivandogovich on May 02, 2016, 07:05:23 pm

Title: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: ivandogovich on May 02, 2016, 07:05:23 pm
Quote from: legionof1 on May 02, 2016, 05:36:09 pm
....cause holy hell the building components for the conqueror. This thing is gona need an entire dedicated base just to assemble.

Would you consider developing idea this further, that we can get a Conqueror Manufacturing base design up on the wiki? ;)  Feel free to post in the bootypedia thread, or start a new one. :)
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Dioxine on May 02, 2016, 07:08:43 pm
It's intened that building a Conqeror is very hard to do efficiently w/o a factory base with huge storage space.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: legionof1 on May 02, 2016, 07:51:29 pm
i will happily send what i discover along ivan, when i figure it out for myself. Right now im still trying to wrap my brain around the sheer scale of the problem. As an example 25k hellirum is well...a thing
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: ivandogovich on May 02, 2016, 07:53:43 pm
Quote from: legionof1 on May 02, 2016, 07:51:29 pm
i will happily send what i discover along ivan, when i figure it out for myself. Right now im still trying to wrap my brain around the sheer scale of the problem. As an example 25k hellirum is well...a thing

 :o
2500 storage?  (each one being .1 size)
*Brain Breaks

Edit: that alone is 20 armored vaults.\

Edit 2:  and a quick pencil figuring a Factory 3X3 and a 2X2 hangar.... gobbles up 13 of 36 tiles. 23 left. Not much room for runts after that.

Ok, Edit 3: just compared the Wiki and ruleset. Fortunately its not 25,000 fuel directly, but rather converted to 500 fuel capsules. Still 500 inventory space, but those could be manufactured offsite and shipped in.  Looks like I need to update the manufacturing page too.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Meridian on May 02, 2016, 07:57:47 pm
Quote from: ivandogovich on May 02, 2016, 07:53:43 pm
:o
2500 storage?  (each one being .1 size)
*Brain Breaks

Edit: that alone is 20 armored vaults.

You can just move all your slaves there... now that it's possible.

Too bad some of us don't have slaves :)
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Dioxine on May 02, 2016, 08:00:33 pm
Yeah but you can build them separately from the ship itself. I mean, converting hellerium to Fuel Capsules. That cuts down storage space requirement to 500. Other components aren't that crazy... yet, in the 1.0 you will be building the Conqueror from several large components (which can actually help, as you will build them more gradually). So the final assembly base probably needs only something around 1000 storage space.

Edit: slaves may help, but you'd need an insane number of them to make any difference. Some Slaves may be later upgraded to Servants that are 3x more effective, but still.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: legionof1 on May 02, 2016, 08:50:12 pm
Even with support offsite sub assembly happening and needing 1000 storage(or more in present form still computing figures) that's 8 tiles for storage, 4 for hanger, 9 for factory, 1 for power station, 10 tiles for luxury barracks to full staff factory(100 workshop space premium on conqueror so only 350 runts), defens.....oh wait already nearly at 36 tiles. That said 350 runts on the project build it in a mere 17 days and some hours.

Okay placing factory corner to corner with hanger cuts defensive block-out to 3 tiles while maintaining integrity. 33 tiles left -8 storage -10 for factory and power station -10 barracks -4 hanger=1 tile remaining.

Assign spare tile as further armored vault so garrison has gear space. 36 of barracks space devoted to garrison/crew. 314 runts on build. Time to complete:19.9 days.

Time to build base......significant particularly since you must begin with an edge board lift if you wish to have the defensive block-outs.

Guesstimate build time 4-5 months.

On the subject of defense i feel you must invest in garrison and block-outs as the base will never stand off large vessel attacks(only hybrid defenses and no grav shield). Also no shroud and near max size. Loseing this base at any stage would be a huge blow in time and resources.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: ivandogovich on May 02, 2016, 09:20:48 pm
@legionof1
Hmm... not sure I'm following.  Can you take a look at this?

https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Talk:Hideouts_%28Piratez%29 (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Talk:Hideouts_%28Piratez%29)

I'm seeing two empty spots available. Also not sure what you mean by corner to corner.

@Dioxine: We've horribly thread jacked this.  Can you break the conqueror manufacturing off to its own thread?
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Dioxine on May 02, 2016, 09:42:04 pm
Splitted. Also, garrison wise, you might use tanks, maybe... Or build a Shroud, lay low, and hope for the best.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: legionof1 on May 02, 2016, 09:56:36 pm
i ment like this.

HHX
HHX
LVFFF
    FFF
    FFF  L=lift H=hanger X=empty V= vault

Haveing the factory directly linking to either the lift or the hanger is a bad idea since it unlike the lift and hanger is vulnerable to collapse from damage. loseing a vault or barracks is minor issue. Loseing the factory is months of time to rebuild. It also need to be close to the lift to cut down on overall build time for base.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: ivandogovich on May 02, 2016, 10:19:03 pm
 :D  ok, I'm following you better!

(https://i.imgur.com/D8aC8Qf.png)

This format allows you to plop down the lift, and immediately build Hangar, Power, Armored Vaults and Luxury Barracks.  20 days later, the Factory can start. Its a matter of time and prioritizing Barracks then stores to complete this design.

Two more barracks to fill in the gaps, adds another 70 runts, and their increased manhours, and would border the Hangar with barracks.  I know this can be a matter of preference, as some prefer to surround access points (hangars, lifts) with player spawn points in the barracks (I'm looking at you, Arthanor).  Immediate rocket fire on the invaders in the hangars can be a great way to destabilize them before they can organize an attack.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: legionof1 on May 02, 2016, 10:38:29 pm
Looks good. Another 70 runts means diddly as your only 36 below max capacity if you garrison with the eventual crew. 36 runt is a difference of only ~2 days.

If i did fill those slots i would make it an extractor and.... fusion core?(i dont remember if the capsules need it). Adding the exctractor allows you to crank out the hellirum in large amounts while the base is in progress to full storage.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: ivandogovich on May 02, 2016, 10:43:20 pm
Quote from: legionof1 on May 02, 2016, 10:38:29 pm
If i did fill those slots i would make it an extractor and.... fusion core?(i dont remember if the capsules need it). Adding the exctractor allows you to crank out the hellirum in large amounts while the base is in progress to full storage.

Yup! Does need Fusion! Right then! Extractor, and Fusion will go into the plan!  Thanks for the brainstorming!

Edit: This base also has a defense value of 4750.  I'm not sure how this stacks up, but it sounds impressive!

https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Talk:Hideouts_%28Piratez%29#Conqueror_Project_Hideout  (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Talk:Hideouts_%28Piratez%29#Conqueror_Project_Hideout)
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Arthanor on May 02, 2016, 11:35:54 pm
yay! Who cares for defensive piratez? What's that even supposed to mean? Go (for) big (boom), go for the throat (with as fancy of a sword as you can find) or go home!

It looks like a pretty good design, and just enough runts to take advantage of the factory (350 + 100 for the conqueror = 450 of the factory?).

I would switch the power supply with either the barrack of vault, so that you are less likely to fight in it and getting it destroyed. Ideally, have something like what I attached.

Then yeah, fill the other two squares with a garrison, or more storage for a tank/dog/parrot/other HWP (cyberdiscs could be cool? great reaction fire on those) garrison.

Since the conqueror is "just" a craft, surely it can sit in any hangar? That means you don't need to keep its crew on the factory base, you can send it to your main base once it is ready? I guess if you want to go as soon as it is refuelled..
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: ivandogovich on May 02, 2016, 11:49:01 pm
good point about the powerstation.  I've updated the design. :)
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: legionof1 on May 02, 2016, 11:59:43 pm
Defensive planning speaking once the conqueror is on the production line it, and its crew and equipment are the show. Cydonia is a one shot win or lose the campaign. Don't risk the resources invested(which are monumental the base alone is at least 20 mil and 4-5 months never mind lost components), bring your best and brightest to guard it which coincidentally is the same batch of gals your mailing off to mars. Just seems efficient use of resources. Once your ready to start this the rest of the game can go to hell. You can have 41 days off completely ignoring the game prior to build start and still get your shot.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: ivandogovich on May 03, 2016, 12:56:30 am
ah.....  :o

Yeah, my brain got looking at that Hellerium problem again.

I did napkin math on extracting that much Hellerium. Even with 350 runts, you'll get less that 3 Hellerium/day.   Any guesses how long that takes to make 25,000?  Yep, over 8.15 years.

Ok, buy it on the market.
$20,000 per pop. * 25,000 =
$500,000,000

Thats a lotta dosh!  All that talk about, "Jeez, there's too much Hellerium in the game... You should nerf it again, Dioxine! "  - Pfft! :P

Honestly, I don't know if I'll complete my campaign after seeing how crazy this is.  Maybe that cash is easy to come by.  Maybe I need three mint bases. I had hoped one would be enough.  If I can get to the CONQUEROR tech though, I may just call it good.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Arthanor on May 03, 2016, 01:08:23 am
Well, at that point, you can see all of your stockpile(s) of other stuff too, which by endgame, should amount to some money too. And you're probably sitting on a fair pile of cash too. Plus you probably have all the tech you care about, so you can finally fire all those expensive brainers!

Fair enough, 500M$ is a lot and you're unlikely to get that out of XGrog, but tactical missions are not bad if you sell everything (given that at that point, you won't need it. Except the Hellerium, of course!). You can easily get a few millions, which isn't much, but does help a bit. And by then, most missions should be "walk through enemy firepower unscathed and stun everything in a hit, so you'll get ransom money too.

I don't know, it sounds doable ;)
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: legionof1 on May 03, 2016, 05:47:05 am
500 mil seems about right given how long ive been at this campaign. That is if i had had mansion runs available throughout. Eh while i build up the funds super-factory base can churn out battle tanks for cash. Not like im doing anything with my plastasteel anymore.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Dioxine on May 03, 2016, 02:51:25 pm
@Ivan: a factory base can make around $2M daily manufacturing Battle Tanks. Don't sweat :) (you need an insane supply of Plastasteel for that, but you can manufacture it at that point).
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: ivandogovich on May 03, 2016, 03:01:00 pm
Quote from: Dioxine on May 03, 2016, 02:51:25 pm
@Ivan: a factory base can make around $2M daily manufacturing Battle Tanks. Don't sweat :) (you need an insane supply of Plastasteel for that, but you can manufacture it at that point).

Thanks! Thats good to know.  I haven't gotten to working up profitability on Battle Tanks (I haven't even seen them yet).  I really appreciate all the brain power involved in the discussion here, and of course your skill and vision which has made this such a vibrant mod! :)
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Dioxine on May 03, 2016, 03:14:38 pm
Hmm, I just thought... putting a Grav Shield into one of the free slots would increase defence rating to OVER 9000!!! :)
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: legionof1 on May 03, 2016, 03:29:13 pm
a grav shield does give you alot of potential defense but its less then 100% accuracy so its of questionable value to me. I know for certain barring a single type of hideout defense i will win with the elites of my ground crew around. Even that single worse case scenario of pure greyrobe stargods i still have a decent shot to hold. And hey more free plasma weapons is never bad. Honestly wish we could selectively disable defenses. "Let them come, the fools. evil chuckle"
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: lusciouspear on June 04, 2016, 02:59:50 am
I was gonna come in here and bitch, but my math was off by an Order of Magnitude (I thought 250,000 Hellerium was needed). It makes sense that you need an entire base to build this thing. It's like...massive. And the future of humanity.

I guess I can make $7.5m/month casually with one base if I do plastisteel -> battle tank. Maybe I can optimize to 20m/factory? Not sure. So it's probably not too hard to get to $75m/month manufacturing.

It's just SO MUCH CLICKING :(

As far as pacing/gameplay are concerned, I really like the idea of the:

Reticulan Pact. I wish starting the Conqueror project actually changed the UFOs/Battles you see. Like, you can capture plastisteel or Hellerium or something. It's an incentive to start the project and stay on top of things. You're not just twiddling thumbs shotting things down to keep your score decent. It's a way to keep players engaged.

Personally, I'm just modding the fuel capsules in because I think I've put 100+ hours into this game and I need resolution and my life back :)

Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Dioxine on June 04, 2016, 03:33:21 am
Just 100 hours to get to the endgame? Man you're fast!
But yeah, waiting x months to get the ship done while still having to fight battles isn't exactly great fun. It was my gripe with the OG :) It will be fixed at some point.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: legionof1 on June 04, 2016, 07:39:21 am
Its one of those learning problems. A second play through would bypass much of the hurry up and wait because you know whats needed at the finish line and you could plan ahead for everything but the hellerium. No way to play that much stockpiling in advance.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: karadoc on June 05, 2016, 09:35:33 am
I'm finally coming to the end of my first playthrough, still on 0.98B.

For the last month I've just been building vaults and enslaving everything I can get so that I can store the stuff I need for the Conqueror. (And at the same time, building up the money I need.)

I've finally got all the materials, and I'm sure that if I sell some of my spare weapons and chips I can get the money within a day or so. However... I'm kicking myself that I didn't notice that the Conqueror requires 100 workshop space!

I usually don't even look at workshop space, since very few things in the game need it. So I just didn't notice it. And the base I've been setting up for the Conqueror is not my factory base; I decided it would take too long to get the storage capacity high enough in my factory base, since it has zero vaults, and zero free spots. (It's 100% slave based storage. Enough to build a Dragon, but not a Conqueror.) I'd need to sacrifice my industrial printer to build the vaults, and so I decided to use a different base instead.

So now, I've got everything I need except the workshop space. I've decided to trash one of my hangers to build an industrial printer so that I can build the Conqueror.


I don't mind that the Conqueror needs a ton of resources and a specialised base; but I just wish I'd known it was coming. If I knew that's what I'd need in the end game, I would have set up a base for it in advance. My last two bases are interceptor launch pads, with training facilities, basic defences, and manufacturing. I could easily have created a second factory base instead; but I just didn't think I would need it.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Mattdo on June 05, 2016, 12:12:38 pm
I built it. It wasn't that hard from where I was - I'd built up a sizeable fortune while waiting for a Star God Coordinator to show up. You don't need hundreds of workers - you could even just have fifty or so and let them take a few months building it.
The main obstacle is that you need hundreds of millions worth of Hellerium. I had multiple bases buying and processing it and shipping it to my construction base.
The other obstacle is if you decided to emancipate all your slaves before beginning - in which case, destroy some stuff and build lots of Armored Vaults.
Also, you need a couple of dozen stasis pods, which means finding and shooting down Battleships.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: legionof1 on June 05, 2016, 06:32:22 pm
Yeah knowing that much hellirum is needed only after the tech is done is.....irritating at the least. Everything else is easily had by the time the tech is done. Even stasis pods are easy if you have enemy base hanging around to generate supply ships. But that hellirium count.........Cant wait for the planed sub assemblys so you can do things in digestible chunks. Although present form is working out since i need to wait for mansion runs to make sufficient high end armor for the final assault.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Mattdo on June 06, 2016, 10:14:51 am
The hellerium is basically a question of money, which I'd been playing for all along anyway.

Mansion runs aren't essential for armor. Once you have all the techs, Annihilator suits can be made from grav units, power armor parts, common bits and pieces, and money.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Dioxine on June 06, 2016, 03:39:01 pm
For now, I'll added a heads-up info in the Fuel Capsule description, that you will need 500 to go to Mars. Should be of some help at least, until the Conqueror manufacture is properly overhauled (and thus, spread up).

As for the SG coordinator capture, I plan on adding a high-end building that gives you global radar coverage and allows to crack the SG Coordinator code as long as you've interrogated any Star God and have the 'Death or Glory!' researched. But it requires making gfx and maps for said building, so can't happen that easily :) Maybe it'll be the 'Queen's Palace' which'll allow to kill several birds with one stone, but 3x3 map takes time to make, especially if I want it to look cooler than most.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Meridian on June 06, 2016, 03:58:17 pm
I was thinking maybe after "death or glory" and "conqueror" research are done, you could enable some small mission to happen periodically once a month or once every two months.
This would just spawn a mission site, where you could capture a SGC... the difficulty of the mission is up to you. The idea is just to reliably increase their presence when needed.
The mission site could be called for example "Management meeting" :D I'm sure a high ranking star god has a reason to come down to earth every now and then... not everything can be solved via hyperwaves.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Rince Wind on June 06, 2016, 04:14:56 pm
Or make that one of the proposed space missions, where you attack a station with a coordinator on it.

Maybe add a raid where you can grab fuel cells as well. Not many at a time, but it might help those that didn't realize you need to print money with factories to complement your pirating.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 06, 2016, 04:36:26 pm
Both ideas are sensible. I especially like the idea of an orbital station mission, because space is cool and space terrorism is unique. :P But the Coordinator clearly visits our planet too, so an additional mission on Earth would be perfectly fine.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Dioxine on June 06, 2016, 05:12:38 pm
Yeah a monthly space mission with guaranteed +200 or so Hellerium and a chance to meet SGC sounds just fine. Too bad I have to take more care of my life and modding will have to be curtailed for some time :)
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: ivandogovich on June 06, 2016, 05:41:00 pm
I like where all this is going.  :)  These ideas should help alot!
So far, I think my general feeling is that  Mod overall is in great shape up to End Game.  Then it devolves to a grind fest as noted here and other threads, etc.  Obviously Dioxine is not done with game design and polish and I think all of this feedback and brainstorming is good for achieving the desired overall balance. :)
I have not yet gone back to try the new Early Game, and I'm highly considering putting my current campaign on hold to try that.  I don't imagine that any of the end game mission re-works are feasible before this fall with Dioxine's current schedule. 
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 06, 2016, 05:49:06 pm
Quote from: ivandogovich on June 06, 2016, 05:41:00 pm
I have not yet gone back to try the new Early Game, and I'm highly considering putting my current campaign on hold to try that.

I'd recommend waiting until the next update, which will be a significant development of early game. It should come out soon.
Title: Re: How to build the Conqueror?
Post by: lusciouspear on June 11, 2016, 10:56:27 am
200 Hellerium? Can we increase that by an Order of Magnitude? ;)

It'd be nice if the eventual Conqueror components were useful on their own. Makes it a little more rewarding to strive for. Unique missions (I like the space idea ... maybe each component gets you to L1, L2., Moon...) or air combat bonuses or something.