OpenXcom Forum

OpenXcom => Open Feedback => Topic started by: ivandogovich on January 15, 2015, 11:13:14 pm

Title: The "Please Stop Using 1.0" Discussion
Post by: ivandogovich on January 15, 2015, 11:13:14 pm
I felt it was not appropriate to continue thread jacking the Xeno Ops thread with this discussion, so I thought I'd continue it here. :)

See, ivandogovich? This poor fellow can use old version. He's compiling coz he's on the X. Every mod maker should chase moving target, or alternatively - always stay on outdated grey area. I think modsite should use that kind of categories - actual/outdated. Frankly pretty rare builds are affecting mods not back-compatible way, warboy cares that. But that doesn't mean that modmakers shouldn't check and update their mods! New version often has even more modding features. Let us take mapgen scripting. It allows for really diverse maps to be created. Ask Hobbes or robin. They stop using 1.0 long ago.

And another thing. Every modded or lper who's using 1.0 doesn't really help project to become better. At the best they simply advertising.

I'm just asking you, people to stop using 1.0 version. And stop using mods which aren't working with current version. It's the only way to move WITH the project. Not behind.

Sorry for offtoping.

Isn't xeno oper mod compatible with the nightly?

Thanks for clearly stating your view point, Volutar.  :)

Two responses:

Advertising is good! Its what keeps projects alive even if they are advertising something that is no longer current. ;)

At this point I won't stop using 1.0.  I am 73 episodes into a series that I will finish on the same platform that I started.  I'm quite happy with the way it plays and the entertainment that it provides.  I will probably give the nightlies a run when I get done with it, because there are a lot of excellent features that I want to try out. :)

You say that those playing 1.0 don't help make the project better.  That is true.  They are not beta testing the nightlies.  That role is important, but many players don't want to or don't know how to update bug tracker etc.  However, if they play 1.0, it can increase their interest and draw them further into the project.  Like me, they try to find some way to give back to the project, be it through graphics mods, translations or what ever. 

I think you are right in that the stance of the development team needs to be clearly stated.  On the downloads site and here on the forum,  the message should be clear that 1.0 is not supported as it is outdated.  Bugfixes for 1.0 are not being done, as these are in the nightlies.   Likewise, modding should keep up with the Nightlies if any support is expected from the development team.  I don't know if you speak for SupSuper and Warboy, but I respect the position, nonetheless. :)

Cheers!
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Yankes on January 15, 2015, 11:42:42 pm
Another discussion on that topic:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,3225.0.html
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: hellrazor on January 15, 2015, 11:49:26 pm
Maybe just release new milestone?

But i must say i prefer to be on the egde with github built :>
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: alienfood on January 16, 2015, 01:02:27 am
I nominate this thread as the "I'm using git X and it is working nicely for me" thread.

I am using git 2015-01-02 14:04 and it is working nicely.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: volutar on January 16, 2015, 01:04:45 am
Ivandogovich, please tell, why changing versions to more modern is not really done by lpers(I mean in-between the series, with few exceptions)? It's not changing gameplay. All these updates are about improving, making it less ugly/buggy/crashy(excluding last one I guess?). One of the recent fixes was about offscreen walk. It was quite ugly implementation before and I made is as close to perfect/vanilla as possible (considering panel coverage). You aren't casting your episodes online. You're prerecording and processing them before uploading to YouTube. It won't be any risk in your case at all. You always can interrupt and rollback version and then continue. Really I can't understand the logic. It really looks like some misbelief.  :P
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: volutar on January 16, 2015, 01:23:20 am
New milestone? It will become obsolete after few weeks of active bugfixing. There is no point of releasing milestones except for some psychological shit AND some exotic not really popular platforms builds. After each bug found in milestone and fixed - this milestone assumed 100% obsolete. And there is no point to refer to it anymore, except for like some snapshot for historical review of old bugs.

You may already assume current nightly as milestone.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Meridian on January 16, 2015, 01:48:33 am
Hi Volutar, all,

I really don't want to cause any flamewar, frustration or anything, but I share most of ivan's opinions... as an LPer, as an OpenXcom fan and also as a developer. It is really not that hard to understand them, if you just try a little. You don't have to agree with them, nobody is asking for that, just try to understand.

1. I am starting a "new" LP in one week. I will play FMP modpack, which is not compatible with the nightly... and I cannot change the fact that I play FMP and I cannot change the fact that I start in one week and cannot wait until it is upgraded, because I have made a public "promise" to deliver that and by then.

2. What is wrong about a new milestone becoming obsolete after few weeks? I cannot play with 1.0 and I cannot play with the nightly... the old nightly, which I need to use cannot even be downloaded anymore from the website... this will be my first LP, where I will have to tell to my viewers: "sorry guys, you cannot play along the same version with me, because it is fricking complicated (for a normal human being) to make it run"... not all of us are developers you know (I am, but 99.8% of my viewers are not)

3. This will sound stupid, but try to just get the point, don't take it literally... not supporting 1.0 and not having 1.1 or 2.0 is as if Microsoft said Windows 8.1 is not supported anymore, because there is a developer preview version of Windows 10... or does that sound "normal"?

4. I am really sorry, but not everybody can be a beta tester... I just don't have time for it. I am contributing by advertising on YT as you said... and I have also donated to OpenXcom (more than I have payed for any other game).

In any case, I appreciate the work you guys are doing... as far as I understand, in the last year it is basically just Warboy and Volutar, who are making this happen... I really wish you guys all the best and I will support you in any way I can... even though we might not agree even on some basic stuff. It is YOUR project, you can do it any way you like... please don't stop.

Cheers,
Meridian
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: ivandogovich on January 16, 2015, 02:06:34 am
Ivandogovich, please tell, why changing versions to more modern is not really done by lpers(I mean in-between the series, with few exceptions)? It's not changing gameplay. All these updates are about improving, making it less ugly/buggy/crashy(excluding last one I guess?). One of the recent fixes was about offscreen walk. It was quite ugly implementation before and I made is as close to perfect/vanilla as possible (considering panel coverage). You aren't casting your episodes online. You're prerecording and processing them before uploading to YouTube. It won't be any risk in your case at all. You always can interrupt and rollback version and then continue. Really I can't understand the logic. It really looks like some misbelief.  :P

Why do LPers like a milestone? (this is the same question as: please tell, why changing versions to more modern is not really done by lpers?)
1. Milestones don't move.  They stay the same, so that viewers can play the same version as the producer.  This is a pretty common practice by YTers.. They post the versions they are playing and the mods that they are using, and many even post save games for their viewers to use.

2. For some users, Nightlies seem hard.  (Yeah, call it psychological BS if you will, but I've had to help users who couldn't even figure out how to install mods).  This is probably erroneous. 

As far as recording, and re-recording on crashes if necessary.  Yes, this is possible.   Having done that a couple times when encountering bugs, I can attest that it is challenging.  Challenging, maybe frustrating, but possible.  At some point it becomes no longer worth it.

Misbelief, sure.  "Nighltly" often means the latest alpha build.  These are often buggy.  Most producers and many players don't want to play the latest bleeding edge version of anything.  They want to play something that has been tested and verified.  Therefore they look to the milestone. 

Again, you are asking for the viewpoints of the user/modder/advertiser(LPer) community, and why they don't play nightlies.  These are some of the reasons. :)

I understand the developer point of view and fully support the efforts of the dev team (And thankyou, personally, for your efforts in the project).  I can understand the frustration that stems from users complaining about bugs in old versions that have been fixed months ago.  I can understand the frustration with users complaining about out of date mods that break on new nightlies.  I think its good that we find these mod issues because it puts a fire under the mod makers to keep their mods up to date.

Thanks for your thoughts. :)
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: volutar on January 16, 2015, 10:03:04 am
Thanks for the response. I will try to constructively comment it.
1. I am starting a "new" LP in one week. I will play FMP modpack, which is not compatible with the nightly... and I cannot change the fact that I play FMP and I cannot change the fact that I start in one week and cannot wait until it is upgraded, because I have made a public "promise" to deliver that and by then.
fair point. Just two comments: FMP is not coherent itself. It has pretty large amount of different inconsistencies and imbalances, no matter which oxc build you'll pick. Second, it's not about using latest nightly. Nightly of month ago or 6 months ago is anyways better than 1.0.

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2. What is wrong about a new milestone becoming obsolete after few weeks? I cannot play with 1.0 and I cannot play with the nightly... the old nightly, which I need to use cannot even be downloaded anymore from the website... this will be my first LP, where I will have to tell to my viewers: "sorry guys, you cannot play along the same version with me, because it is fricking complicated (for a normal human being) to make it run"... not all of us are developers you know (I am, but 99.8% of my viewers are not)
Why not to upload old nightly somewhere publicly? Openxcom.org I guess is short on disk space(I'm not sure it might be caused by some other reason). There is no problem of putting some sort of public archive of all versions. Why not in openxcom.com? It's the site which is provoking of using mods - let it provide it with latest compatible version as well. In the worst case you can make a pack with all necessary folders with all installed mods you are using and upload it somewhere.

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3. This will sound stupid, but try to just get the point, don't take it literally... not supporting 1.0 and not having 1.1 or 2.0 is as if Microsoft said Windows 8.1 is not supported anymore, because there is a developer preview version of Windows 10... or does that sound "normal"?
If you like to take ms example - nightlies are not new versions, not service packs, they are simple updates which are coming pretty damn often for ms. For openxcom they are tested before being committed. But not vs mods. Because mods are not devs problems. They have their respective authors and should catch up for recent updates. Otherwise they die (in terms of obsolete software). In this case support is often recommending to use something similar.
Of course sometimes nightly can have some side bug caused by not proper testing. But it happens not that often as you say. And you always can rollback to previous version.

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4. I am really sorry, but not everybody can be a beta tester... I just don't have time for it. I am contributing by advertising on YT as you said... and I have also donated to OpenXcom (more than I have payed for any other game).
It's not about being beta tester. Nightly is not a beta nor an alpha. It's prerelease. It's always Release Candidate if you will. Number of bugs in last milestone is not comparable with nightly. When playing 1.0 you are ten times, hundred times more beta tester than if you'd be playing the nightly. Milestone always has more bugs than the nightly. And in case of milestone, your complains (if any) wouldn't be heard because the bugs you will encounter in 99% cases are fixed long ago.

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in the last year it is basically just Warboy and Volutar, who are making this happen...
Nope. It's Warboy and SupSuper. I'm just quality/vanilla advisor and occasionally making code fixes(not through the git, thus my name is just not there). Not to mention the role of pain in the arse.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: volutar on January 16, 2015, 10:24:44 am
1. Milestones don't move.  They stay the same, so that viewers can play the same version as the producer.  This is a pretty common practice by YTers.. They post the versions they are playing and the mods that they are using, and many even post save games for their viewers to use.
I already responded to this one. In two words - upload your configuration+exes! whole game itself just without vanilla folders. In months 1.0 will be not downloadable. So better take care on that too.

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2. For some users, Nightlies seem hard.  (Yeah, call it psychological BS if you will, but I've had to help users who couldn't even figure out how to install mods).  This is probably erroneous.
extract archive contents to game folder is hard? And how are they gonna setup mods? Extract whole game with reinstalled mods is times easier than installing just TWO mods.

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Misbelief, sure.  "Nighltly" often means the latest alpha build.  These are often buggy.  Most producers and many players don't want to play the latest bleeding edge version of anything.  They want to play something that has been tested and verified.  Therefore they look to the milestone. 
Wrong. Nightlies are RC.
Wrong. They are hundred times less buggy than milestone.
Wrong. Milestone is not a bit more tested than any other nightly.
Do you think we are play testing some "chosen" nightly for months to be sure it has no bugs? Wrong! We are simply calling this nightly a milestone. That's all. It may cause lots of crashes. And then quick new milestone get released. With same number. There was number of milestones with hilarious bugs which were fixed in month-two after. 1.0 is not an exception.
If you want stable - take a month or two of pause after milestone. And grab the nightly. At this point most of milestone bugs being discovered and fixed. Almost no one is testing nightly beta and almost everyone is testing milestone alpha.

It's like with windows release. Release version is always raw and unfinished. And there is good reason to wait until service pack. At least that was the upgrade tactics before ms got their new satanic version releases. It looks like they tired of making cumulative service packs. Always releases with bunch of fresh new bugs.

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Again, you are asking for the viewpoints of the user/modder/advertiser(LPer) community, and why they don't play nightlies.  These are some of the reasons. :)
I hope I made some myth busts here. Because this reasoning you guys are following really mostly the myths.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: ivandogovich on January 16, 2015, 05:36:54 pm
@Volutar  Thank for all of your responses. :)

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<snip> If you like to take ms example - nightlies are not new versions, not service packs, they are simple updates which are coming pretty damn often for ms. For openxcom they are tested before being committed....

It's not about being beta tester. Nightly is not a beta nor an alpha. It's prerelease. It's always Release Candidate if you will.

Thanks for the clarification.   Who are the testers?  The ones that test the nightlies before they are committed?

Cheers, Ivan :D
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Hobbes on January 16, 2015, 06:36:40 pm
1. I am starting a "new" LP in one week. I will play FMP modpack, which is not compatible with the nightly... and I cannot change the fact that I play FMP and I cannot change the fact that I start in one week and cannot wait until it is upgraded, because I have made a public "promise" to deliver that and by then.

Meridian, if you need any help with getting the FMP compatible with the nightlies let me know. I've already fixed the issue of terror sites crashing the game on the Terrain Pack, so it's a simple matter of updating the FMP ruleset.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: volutar on January 16, 2015, 08:46:34 pm
At least Warboy's commits are accurately tested before commit. Sometimes he's postponing them for weeks because of something not quite pleasing. Supsuper also not tending to make raw commits.

Just trust me, blind not tested commits are really rare. My "fixes" are heavily tested too. You see there are different classes of commits. Some if them are pure visual. They are not affecting anything. And easily tested. Some - algorithmic. They are also quite easy to test. Fixes/ imrpvments/ extensions related to rulesets are most dangerous because: 1) people tend not to update rulesets when updating exe; 2) they can break mods. Unmodded xcom is tested. It's common practice.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: ivandogovich on January 17, 2015, 02:16:49 am
@Volutar

I found this an interesting statement from Warboy:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,1700.msg34414.html#msg34414
Quote

"If your mod is in active development it MUST be tagged as such, or better, released in the experiments forum.
Remember this is the completed mods section, as such it should only be used for milestone releases, not nightly updates.
having a thread in both forums is fine, but releasing experimental and/or game-breaking material here is a big no-no.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 01:36:11 pm by Warboy1982 »"

Does this mean Milestone Updates of the mods?  or of OXC?   Thanks :)
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: volutar on January 17, 2015, 09:05:58 am
As I understand that means he doesn't support a mess in the forum. Completed mods section is for completed mods working with milestone, and another thread is for WIP version, working with nightly. Isn't it dumb to ignore nightly entirely and only start updating mods only after new milestone released?

But I would like to hear him too.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Warboy1982 on January 17, 2015, 09:08:03 am
i was referring to the mods themselves.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using NIGHTLIES Discussion"
Post by: volutar on January 17, 2015, 10:09:19 am
Ok. I stop understanding that too.

New thread tittle: Stop using nightlies
[/irony]

Completed mods: finished mods working with 1.0 and updated version compatible with nightly
Experimental mods: unfinished WIP mods working with 1.0 or/and updated version compatible with nightly
Mod archive: finished mods working with 1.0 and not working with nightly (without updated version)
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Falko on January 17, 2015, 11:23:46 am
if nobody makes/uses mods with nightly
some errors in the new code are not discovered
trivial example: vanilla mapscript had no removeblock command only if somebody plays around with that it can be discovered that the command is/was not working correctly
without the early testing some functionality is not tested properly and bugs stay in the next milestone
(if a mod uses the rulset correctly but does "more" than vanilla and runs into a bug its still a bug even if its not a problem for vanilla | i do not talk about limitation like exactly 10 alienitemlevels/month or misformed rulesets)
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: volutar on January 17, 2015, 11:40:54 am
That's exactly my irony was about. If modmakers aren't catching up with the nightly and players not using/testing them in their LPs or just play, then devs won't fix bugs which will disallow "updated" mod work with it after next milestone. Devs don't test your mods. And won't fix engine to fit them better. Devs are care only about vanilla rulesets. Everything else is up to you.
Don't want to update mods? Don't want to play updated mods and nightly? Expect huge bugs with new milestone then. And don't complain.

What "stability" then you're expecting from the "stable"?
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Yankes on January 17, 2015, 01:49:28 pm
I think of 2 solution for current situation based on what ETA of TFTD:

1) if its less than 1 month, wait for it.
2) if its longer than 1 month, create new milestone based on today master branch.

This is probably most beneficial for whole community. Modders can stop wild ride after nightlies, Warboy (Destroyer of savesmods :D) can continue this job and user have bug fix version form the start (not like download 1.0->find bug->go to forum->download nightly).

I can volunteered to help push case 1).
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Hobbes on January 18, 2015, 02:13:46 am
I've been keeping an eye on this thread and from my previous experience with the nightlies here's what I think:

1) Saying that modders help up the development process by keeping their mods updated and reporting nightly bugs is largely wishful thinking. Modders are not playtesters, so trying to use them as such will merely frustrate both developers and modders.

2) It is also irrealistic to expect that most modders keep up with the changes introduced by the nightlies. Again, modders shouldn't be expected to have the same zeal or availability of developers, since they will usually quickly move to their other gaming interests after they've finished their projects.

3) Most, if not nearly all currently existing mods will become unplayable on the nightlies until 2.0 gets released, and a lot will never be updated afterwards. A modder can drop by and update once in a while but you really need a lot of free time to be constantly updating a mod to be compatible with the latest nightly. 

4) When OpenXcom 1.0 was released I remember a video review where the journalist said something that surprised me and it was like: "there's a ton of mods for this game now. I guess everyone was holding to their mods until the game got released". I now strongly suspect the same will happen when 2.0 gets released because of all the reasons above.

Personally, after my experiences in the past days, I'm going to pick a nightly that is "stable" and I'll stick with it while developing my current mod project. It's simply not productive for me to be constantly interrupted from creating new stuff because of the need to fix things that were working perfectly until the latest nightly got released. And if a player wants to use my mods with the latest nightly, well he/she will need to wait until 2.0 or I post an update.

Meanwhile, if playtesting is really needed, I'd suggest at some point to place a call on the forums and elsewhere for playtesters among the players. People whose sole responsability is to keep track of the nightlies and check the vanilla game (not the mods) for bugs. I'm sure a few people would volunteer to help.

Developers do their thing their way, modders and playtesters the same. And hopefully we all meet again at the end of the road. :)
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: ivandogovich on January 18, 2015, 02:26:15 am
I've been keeping an eye on this thread and from my previous experience with the nightlies here's what I think:

1) Saying that modders help up the development process by keeping their mods updated and reporting nightly bugs is largely wishful thinking. Modders are not playtesters, so trying to use them as such will merely frustrate both developers and modders.

2) It is also irrealistic to expect that most modders keep up with the changes introduced by the nightlies. Again, modders shouldn't be expected to have the same zeal or availability of developers, since they will usually quickly move to their other gaming interests after they've finished their projects.

3) Most, if not nearly all currently existing mods will become unplayable on the nightlies until 2.0 gets released, and a lot will never be updated afterwards. A modder can drop by and update once in a while but you really need a lot of free time to be constantly updating a mod to be compatible with the latest nightly. 

4) When OpenXcom 1.0 was released I remember a video review where the journalist said something that surprised me and it was like: "there's a ton of mods for this game now. I guess everyone was holding to their mods until the game got released". I now strongly suspect the same will happen when 2.0 gets released because of all the reasons above.

Personally, after my experiences in the past days, I'm going to pick a nightly that is "stable" and I'll stick with it while developing my current mod project. It's simply not productive for me to be constantly interrupted from creating new stuff because of the need to fix things that were working perfectly until the latest nightly got released. And if a player wants to use my mods with the latest nightly, well he/she will need to wait until 2.0 or I post an update.

Meanwhile, if playtesting is really needed, I'd suggest at some point to place a call on the forums and elsewhere for playtesters among the players. People whose sole responsability is to keep track of the nightlies and check the vanilla game (not the mods) for bugs. I'm sure a few people would volunteer to help.

Developers do their thing their way, modders and playtesters the same. And hopefully we all meet again at the end of the road. :)
Well said, Hobbes. +1
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Gifty on January 18, 2015, 10:33:48 am
Hear, hear!
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Meridian on January 18, 2015, 10:55:35 am
+10
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: volutar on January 18, 2015, 11:36:45 am
If you read me accurately you would notice that I said:
1) developers are worried about only vanilla. And no tests concerning mods are done.
2) modmakers have to test what are they doing but the main tests are done by players/lpers which shouldn't ignore latest versions. Those who are still on v1.0 and old mods are not helping project a bit. And shouldn't expect these mods working with 1.1.
3) milestone is the most buggy version at the moment and nightly of 6 months after 1.0 release is much much better. Keeping mods actual for 1 month old nightly is hundred times better than 1.0. 1.0 is essentially the worst case here. It's not better than 0.9 in terms of any usefulness.

The main appeal is about stop using oxc1.0 and mods for it. And start to catching up the nightly. Because 1.1 is nigh and without proper attention from modmakers and modplayers it may become modless version, which will require another iteration to become stable.

Basically consider current nightly as prerelease and aim to support of it.
No one will do that for you.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Meridian on January 18, 2015, 12:45:47 pm
1) agreed, that is how it should be
2) you obviously don't want to listen to any of our arguments, so I will not discuss this topic anymore
3) agreed

1.1 will definitely not be modless... on the contrary, once it is released, people will start updating their mods and create new mods too... whether you like it or not, it is AFTER the release of 1.1 when the people will become more active... heck, I may even try to make my own mod, but definitely not before a milestone is released

PS: this is my last post in this thread
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: volutar on January 18, 2015, 01:06:33 pm
2. I didn't hear any viable argument advocating the fact that some modmakers are living in the past (continuing making mods for 0.9/1.0) and by that provoking people not to help testing 1.1 prerelese. Instead of helping project to be released bugless they are distracting players, dragging their attention to outdated stuff.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Falko on January 18, 2015, 01:07:00 pm
what happens if there is no modmaking/testing for nightlies
the problem is there is no bugfixing for a release version (1.0, 1.1,...)
and if huge crowds of modmakers make new mods only if 1.1 is out they will encounter bugs
these bugs will be fixed but the fixes are now only in these scary nightlies

i do not say all modders/player should switch to nightlies
i have no numbers but i think if >20% of player base play with nightlies that would be good enough

IMHO if you publish a mod that works only with nightly put it in the thread title

also as a suggestion for the devs: before milestone release make a release candidate
define a nightly "1.1 RC1" approx. a month before release with the intention "there should not be (significant/any) ruleset changes until release" so more modder feel confident using this RC to test and find bugs for the next release
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Meridian on January 18, 2015, 01:26:35 pm
I feel like I am talking to a wall  :'(

Have I EVER said anything about bugs? Hint: no, I haven't!

I am talking about stability. And stable does not mean "bug free". Just google the word stable and you will find a definition close to this: "stable = not likely to change; firmly established". Every software has bugs and even OpenXcom version 99.0 will have bugs. That's life.

Developers can live and work with a very low degree of stability.
Beta-testers the same.
Modders need at least moderate degree of stability.
Normal users (incl. LPers) need a very high degree of stability.

By definition, version 1.0 is stable (even if it is full of bugs).
By definition, nightly build is unstable.... because it CHANGES every day.

PS: I am not a native English speaker... if I have a severe language problem in this post, please let me know... because that is the only thing I can think of, which causes our misunderstandings
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: volutar on January 18, 2015, 01:57:15 pm
Stable in terms of software means not causing crashes or other breaking stuff.
"Stability" you refer is another kind of thing. It's often called "feature freeze".
As soon as oxc in on its road to tftd it can't be feature frozen. If community decide it can choose particular nightly as the RC without any devs involvement and simply use it as base for both mod making and LPing. No one is stoping people from deciding that.
It's just matter of making public download point and perhaps even custom installer if you want to.
Milestone release actually means NOTHING in terms of project development. Just another installer for the current nightly. The problem with OpenXcom release schedule IMHO is not having official prerelease or RC versions. It really confuses and makes real "stability" some theoretical term.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Meridian on January 18, 2015, 02:18:31 pm
So, I think we finally understand each other.

All we are asking for is that insignificant label (tag) on a particular commit and a downloadable installer.
And if we can have pre-releases, even better... but I am afraid of asking for that... I'd be happy even with as little as above.


PS1: I don't think the community is able to agree and select a particular nightly as RC... people have different opinions and different needs... this must be decided by one (or very few) persons

PS2: and yes, I know what stability means in terms of software (I have studied software engineering and I work as software engineer for 11 years now). But (as far as I can tell) 90% or more of people on this forum are not software engineers. I deliberately use words with their common meaning, so that everybody understands what I am trying to say
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: ivandogovich on January 18, 2015, 03:51:04 pm
Some more good discussion while I sleep! :)

@Volutar: You stated that 1.1 is nigh.    If that is true it would be great news!  I haven't heard anything about it on the forum, or in the Chat.  Can you fill us in on what you mean by that?  (nigh means coming soon, or almost arrived).   Will 1.1 be another milestone along the way to OpenTftD?  or just an updated milestone for OXC? 

My impression is that OpenTftD development is in progress and that it should be available sometime this year.  If it was Ivan guessing, I'd say June to September.  This guess is in no way scientific.  It simply a gut feeling.

Regarding a 1.1,  I'm sure that Modders and others with a desire for "perceived stability" would gladly update their mods, and create new LPs, etc with a release such as this. :)
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: alienfood on January 18, 2015, 04:04:29 pm
Here is how we might converge on a 1.1 release.

- We occasionally report a git build that we have been using and having success with. We list the mods that we are using.
- This is like a high-water mark that gradually moves forward. It is really about putting "play hours" on a build (as in a mean-time-between-failure metric). I am currently using a Jan 2 build with lots of mods but if, say, Falko is using a Jan 10th build successfully, I would move my install forward.
- Each time the high-water mark moves forward, we have a new candidate that could be a 1.1 build.
- At some point, a dev lead announces a timetable for a 1.1 release, and we all start using the same candidate.
- If the candidate has enough quality, it becomes 1.1 with all the required ceremony (e.g. an installer, release notes, download link)

I am a huge fan of getting stuff out there for people to try. But many users prefer named builds with an installer. The nightlies are generally high-quality and almost any of them could be announced as a 1.1 candidate. At that point we would all move to the candidate and play for a month, then we go gold.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Hobbes on January 18, 2015, 05:09:07 pm
- We occasionally report a git build that we have been using and having success with. We list the mods that we are using.
- This is like a high-water mark that gradually moves forward. It is really about putting "play hours" on a build (as in a mean-time-between-failure metric). I am currently using a Jan 2 build with lots of mods but if, say, Falko is using a Jan 10th build successfully, I would move my install forward.

How about a sticky thread in Modding/Experiments where modders can simply post and discuss what nightly they are using and their experiences with it? I would definitely keep a eye on that thread and LP'ers like Meridian could use it too, if simply to ask which nightly they should use.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: alienfood on January 18, 2015, 06:24:29 pm
How about a sticky thread in Modding/Experiments where modders can simply post and discuss what nightly they are using and their experiences with it? I would definitely keep a eye on that thread and LP'ers like Meridian could use it too, if simply to ask which nightly they should use.
I think this is an admirable idea.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0" Discussion
Post by: volutar on January 18, 2015, 06:55:35 pm
Alienfood, sounds like a plan! Making windows installer is not a problem at all. Afaik SupSuper have his script ready to run. Other platforms might be the problem. They have ther respective maintainers which could get their hand on it in month or two. Of course it's up on his will, but community can say its word too.

But really there are not much stuff to do before 1.1 mainly the bug tests. Updates considering tftd shouldn't affect mods. In last few months only one thing happened with the nightly theoretically capable of breaking old mods. It's the mapscripting. Recent ruleset split caused one issue but it's already fixed. There are couple of things but they shouldn't affect things that much. And shouldn't break mods.

Ivandogovich, opentftd would be mistake. No one wants to maintain two gits. So it will be just another OpenXcom release. To run with both games it would need nunber of steps done. At the moment devs are running it hacky way. I'm not sure about this summer since geoscape wasn't even touched. And there are pretty many things to be implemented(considering land/ocean interception and many types of terror)

Meridian, I think community is able to take particular git version and tag it as Prerelease. About word choice. OpenXcom is open project, not commercial, and developer terminology is pretty at its place.

Hobbes, it would be really great if you help other modders to catch up new map generating concept.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0" Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on January 18, 2015, 07:04:04 pm
Hobbes, it would be really great if you help other modders to catch up new map generating concept.

Already working on it ;)
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0" Discussion
Post by: Falko on January 18, 2015, 08:02:00 pm
In last few months only one thing happened with the nightly theoretically capable of breaking old mods. It's the mapscripting.
if you include nightly mods the reordering of the drawingroutines (IIRC introduction of Aquatoid) is/was also modbreaking
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
Post by: Yankes on January 18, 2015, 09:03:30 pm
How about a sticky thread in Modding/Experiments where modders can simply post and discuss what nightly they are using and their experiences with it? I would definitely keep a eye on that thread and LP'ers like Meridian could use it too, if simply to ask which nightly they should use.
If we going to "community" milestone solution, then we should create "mod" on openxcom.com with that nightly. After that each mod could reference what version of exe is it compatible. It would be great if Jo5hua build it that functionality to his portal.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0" Discussion
Post by: volutar on January 18, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Falko, well, maybe you're right. I didn't name that because it's tftd area. Mapscripting in a meantime is common thing (tho often it is in backward compatibility area).

Next thing that will probably break mods is terror site types and frequency rules. Everything else is pretty much mature and shouldn't get changed radically.

Idea of adding section with old nightly versions to OpenXcom.com and git reference for each mod is really worth implementing (both source and exe for win32 version).
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0" Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on January 18, 2015, 10:20:05 pm
Next thing that will probably break mods is terror site types and frequency rules. Everything else is pretty much mature and shouldn't get changed radically.

I'm actually looking forward to this change for a really long time: you can break my rulesets all night long baby!  8)
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0" Discussion
Post by: Solarius Scorch on January 28, 2015, 09:54:10 pm
I'm actually looking forward to this change for a really long time: you can break my rulesets all night long baby!  8)

Agreed! :) I simply wouldn't want to miss on all the new functionalities. (Though it took me two months to fix the FMP after the mapscript. :P )

Next thing that will probably break mods is terror site types and frequency rules.

Good. This stuff needs some rework to give modders more freedom.
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0" Discussion
Post by: ivandogovich on January 28, 2015, 11:23:06 pm
And in other new, Volutar can rest happy that Meridian has started his new FMP playthrough and is using the latest Nightly. ;)
Title: Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0" Discussion
Post by: ivandogovich on April 13, 2015, 11:19:52 pm
I'll just put this here as an example of my original point to Volutar.  CTD during recording session with PirateZ.  Autosave allows us to recover fairly easily.  And I'm not really concerned about it in this LP perse, because we are testing a pre-release mod and leveraging nightlies to do it.  The good news is that Warboy was quickly able to fix the nightly before I recorded any more of the episodes, so the campaign is still in fine shape.  Its just things like this can could cause other LPers to be reluctant to jump on the latest nightlies.

https://youtu.be/HBgmibvCwE8?t=21m55s

Cheers, Ivan :D