OpenXcom Forum

Modding => Work In Progress => Topic started by: Murmur on April 27, 2014, 11:07:01 pm

Title: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Murmur on April 27, 2014, 11:07:01 pm
Is 11 the maximum size that a blast radius can be set to? I'm trying to make a very expensive and heavy 'Micro Nuke', I'd like a rather sizable explosion out of it, but through my testing it seems that if the blastRadius is set higher than 11, it acts as if it were 11 anyways.

EDIT: Removed the attached picture. Replaced with a better one in my next post.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 28, 2014, 02:13:20 am
Yep, there's a cap.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Murmur on April 28, 2014, 03:20:54 am
Hm... I wonder, is the cap there for a technical reason or is it there because 11 was the largest explosion radius in the base game?

EDIT:

What I have now:

(https://i.imgur.com/EXF8qon.png)

Sure, that is a massive explosion. But i'd like it to be even larger! The idea is that this bomb is very heavy: weight 33, and costs $200,000. It's causes minor damage to UFO's, blasting through a few adjacent walls, but as you can see from the picture it absolutely levels everything else. But as it stands I feel like I've made an improved High-Explosive that's way too heavy and expensive. If the blast radius could be further increased I think this would be fun to use in emergencies. Chrysalids just zombified half of your squad and all the civilians in a terror mission. Survival unlikely. Nuke the bastards.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 28, 2014, 03:50:03 am
I assure you, you are not the first person to try adding a mini-nuke for massive damage. :D
I don't think it's an engine limitation. I believe it's hard-coded to prevent modders from having fun. :P
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Murmur on April 28, 2014, 03:55:44 am
Haha believe me, I know I'm not. Just seems like something that feels right, considering how much damage we usually end up doing on terror missions anyways. Why not take it to the next level? "The city block was destroyed but the 12 aliens are dead. Mission accomplished! Promotions all around!"

And if it is just an arbitrary cap then maybe it can be lifted.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Warboy1982 on April 28, 2014, 04:23:41 am
it's capped, but don't you think a bomb that blows up the whole map is a bit unsporting?
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Murmur on April 28, 2014, 04:31:47 am
Sure it is a little! But so is making a gun cost 1% TU for auto fire with a huge accuracy value, and we are able to do that... I get what you are saying though, uncapping it would allow some truly ridiculous things.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Murmur on April 28, 2014, 09:58:58 am
Haha, so I took a peek at the source code and removed the cap on the blast radius... the results are hilarious.

My Micro-Nuke, with a blast radius of 22:

Before:
(https://i.imgur.com/11XptHJ.png)

After:
(https://i.imgur.com/GQZQMwM.png)

After the smoke has cleared:
(https://i.imgur.com/FRAmWfB.png)

Quite the bang! I need to try this on a terror site next.

Oh and Warboy, those two floaters to the top right thought it was very unsporting indeed!  :P
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: yrizoud on April 28, 2014, 10:58:50 am
^ I think Murmur has perfectly stated his case.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 28, 2014, 11:28:23 am
Actually, I have to agree as well. We have plenty of ways to abuse the system already (as evidenced by half the weapon mods :P ), so I can't see why limit this particular case.

BTW, a 100 million worth tzar bomb would be a good way of spending excess money. :P
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Camalex97 on April 28, 2014, 03:38:19 pm
wow... what would that do if It was placed somewhere like an alien base or the center of a harvester ufo (or whatever the hexagon one is) would be cool if you uploaded it
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 28, 2014, 07:57:16 pm
Nice nuke test  ;D

But that will not to improve the tactical side of game !

(or for Predator mod maybe ...)
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Dioxine on April 28, 2014, 08:50:48 pm
I am a bit pivved about the blast radius cap myself... I don't like when game designers try to save modders from themselves, feels kinda Microsoft... I've played with similar idea to yours a few months ago, when I started working on Piratez mod... :) But well, YOU SHALL NOT MAKE BIG EXPLOSIONS, says the Word of God.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Yankes on April 28, 2014, 08:56:13 pm
But you still can use Holy Hand Grenade :D
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: volutar on April 28, 2014, 08:57:41 pm
Why to bother? Just add "Win" button to battlescape, which automatically kills all aliens. And "Win" button in "alien craft detected" screen. Also make radar radius 6000. After 30 minutes of playing that game you simply will delete this game.
It's called "game raping". And totally destroys gameplay and game itself.
it's quite reasonable that developers don't want to make their game piece of shit. Even by third-party mods (i.e. ain't taking responsibility for this raping directly).
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Dioxine on April 28, 2014, 09:33:26 pm
Volutar could you kindly shut up, you're obviously missing the point, writing out of reflex without putting any effort into understanding what the other people are saying. Have a chocolate. Have a tea. Think things through before posting.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 28, 2014, 09:54:52 pm
It's maybe interesting to use it with a "auto-destruction" mecanics with an number of game  turn limited for trigger, for more stress.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Avalanche on April 28, 2014, 10:07:43 pm
It's maybe interesting to use it with a "auto-destruction" mecanics with an number of game  turn limited for trigger, for more stress.

If there's a set trigger time, that could have all sorts of uses. We could turn the situation on its head and give it to aliens as a terror weapon. You've got 5 turns to win the mission, otherwise the bomb goes off and wipes your squad, like in the remake.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Murmur on April 28, 2014, 10:34:23 pm
Why to bother? Just add "Win" button to battlescape, which automatically kills all aliens. And "Win" button in "alien craft detected" screen. Also make radar radius 6000. After 30 minutes of playing that game you simply will delete this game.
It's called "game raping". And totally destroys gameplay and game itself.
it's quite reasonable that developers don't want to make their game piece of shit. Even by third-party mods (i.e. ain't taking responsibility for this raping directly).

Woah woah, man, I love this game, I don't want an automatic win button. Which this isn't anyways. I made the bomb cost so much money that it's impractical to use. It's a novelty item. Use it once, go "Heh neat", get a chuckle or two, then play the game normally. Besides, I'm not asking for something this stupidly powerful to be added to the game. No, I made this for my personal use, basically just to see if I could. I may use it in the future just for fun, set up a scenario in my head and act it out in the game. Like I said, I don't want a win button. I just wanted to see a huge explosion in the game. And I did. And I'm satisfied. However your point at the end is kind of invalid. Third party mods can totally "rape" the game anyways. You can make armor that is invulnerable to anything. Guns that are perfectly accurate and cost nearly nothing to fire. The list goes on and on and I can't see the devs locking those things down because someone can make a completely optional mod.

And to the person that asked me to upload it, it's a bit more complicated than that. I had to download the source, do a minor edit, and compile it myself. Without those steps the bomb's blast radius is that of a blaster bomb.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: volutar on April 28, 2014, 10:43:03 pm
Volutar could you kindly shut up
Dream on. :P
Quote
you're obviously missing the point, writing out of reflex without putting any effort into understanding what the other people are saying. Have a chocolate. Have a tea. Think things through before posting.
What do I have to understand? This image:
(https://i.imgur.com/FRAmWfB.png)

- tells us - it's just some, you know, making fun or mockering over the game... It's not some worms armageddon, with holy grenades and pigeon or cow bombs.  You don't want to see your creature to be raped, or perversed, thus you're making a safety/sanity checks. That's from developer's point of view.
And I totally support these values clamp.
Because otherwise it will go too far from cautious game engine using.

What's the gameplay point of destroying 80% of battlezone with single strike? Blaster launcher was already out of reasonable balance, not saying about that. So from my point of view that looks unpleasant. I hope that won't be implemented in game, at least because all these destroyed ground tiles being "tiled" look too unnatural.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Murmur on April 28, 2014, 11:17:37 pm
Look, I wasn't making fun of and/or mocking the game when I made this... not at all. I made this just to see if I could. I wanted a little project for myself. So I looked into uncapping the blast radius. This was purely for my personal use and, like I said before, a novelty. This is not how I think the game should be played nor how I will play the game. It's been about 14 years I think since I discovered XCom, it's been my favorite and most returned to game ever since. I'd never want to ruin it for myself.

You are totally right about the damaged tiles looking ugly like that though. Obviously never intended, haha.

EDIT: Also, I have to wonder what the point is in clamping this, but not the other easily exploitable things mods can currently do... I am not by any means saying it shouldn't be this way or meaning any disrespect to the devs. I am simply curious, why can someone make a super over powered no fun weapon, but not have an explosive with a blast radius of 12?
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Ran on April 29, 2014, 12:59:51 am
Man, it's a game! ::)
It's supposed to be fun, so relax.
I understand that developers don't like to see their project altered in such ways, but on the other hand - isn't that the point of Open Source? Everyone can change everything, whether you like it or not.
I always was fond of realistic nukes in games. That way it would not be a 'win' but a 'lose' button. It just kills everything if you are stupid enough to use it - everything. :P
The nuke is just like my fusion torch - I made so you could cut windows in your Skyranger or completely disassemble your own otherwise indestructible craft.
I also was working on the RA-115 Soviet Suitcase Nuke a while ago, based on the Piratez briefcase but due to the radius limitation It never 'worked' as intended. It was supposed to be some super rare artifact you could recover and sell, but if you were dumb enough to  use it, well... 8)
See test mod attached, it's still lacking handobs and proper implementation but you can buy and 'use' it if you manage to remove the blast radius limit.

Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: MKSheppard on April 29, 2014, 01:05:51 am
it's capped, but don't you think a bomb that blows up the whole map is a bit unsporting?

Solution: Make a bigger autogen map?  :P
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Dioxine on April 29, 2014, 02:30:56 am
Dream on. :PWhat do I have to understand?
- tells us - it's just some, you know, making fun or mockering over the game... It's not some worms armageddon, with holy grenades and pigeon or cow bombs.  You don't want to see your creature to be raped, or perversed, thus you're making a safety/sanity checks. That's from developer's point of view.
And I totally support these values clamp.
Because otherwise it will go too far from cautious game engine using.

Yeah, that's pretty sums up your line of thinking. Go work in the Microsoft man: they fully support the "take the power away from the user, lest they hurt someone" line. My line of thinking is this: if you don't want homing pigeons mod, DO NOT DOWNLOAD IT, DO NOT PLAY IT. Not hardcode it to be impossible to make because ohhh, sacrilege!
Do I want to commit such sacrilege? Hell yeah.
Do I want to make things the deveoper never even though of, let alone intended? Hell yeah.
Do I want to rape the game? Hell yeah.
Because I'm a modder.
You can sue me I guess. But you wouldn't have such great popularity of OpenXcom if it wasn't so wonderfully moddable.

Explaining why I would ever want a big bomb in Xcom is beside the point, since you wouldn't even listen - you're using the slippery slope argument to put an 'equals' sign between novelty items and concrete donkeys.

tldr, more moddability = good, forced limitations = bad. A limitation is only ever valid if it makes the code run smoother, modding tools easier to use and the game more stable.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: MKSheppard on April 29, 2014, 02:44:04 am
Or you could have a HWP whose weapon is this; for those missions when you're just doing "cleanup" of an area -- drive the HWP towards enemy, 'fire' the bomb; and then clean up the rubble ;D
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: volutar on April 29, 2014, 02:48:10 am
Dioxine, i'm not talking about you in next paragraph.
In older times young programmers, well, better to say "young computer users" were dreaming on being a programmer, or some creative person. But as far as they couldn't do anything, they just took splash screens, or some other "resources" and added there a line "Proudly present by Alyosha". And then boasted about that before their same-aged young friends. I just don't want this project to become a victim of such untalented people, who don't have any skills except for raping other's products. Let them at least have some programming skills. I really hate when monkey gets to store of grenades.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Falko on April 29, 2014, 05:03:12 am
I really hate when monkey gets to store of grenades.
as long as they throw the grenades at them self i have no problem giving monkey access to grenades .. who cares about monkeys
..strange discussion
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Gifty on April 29, 2014, 05:26:51 am
Why is this idea getting so much flak? I'd love to try to set a tactical nuke in the middle of an alien battleship and then get out of dodge as quickly as possible.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Murmur on April 29, 2014, 05:32:28 am
Why is this idea getting so much flak? I'd love to try to set a tactical nuke in the middle of an alien battleship and then get out of dodge as quickly as possible.

That is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to use this for... but I get the problems some people have with it. Others would just use it constantly to remove all challenge from the game. I don't personally have an issue with people doing that, but I get where the people that do are coming from.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Falko on April 29, 2014, 06:53:29 am
i published cheat mods
if people want to suck the fun out of their game OR find huge craters with resistance funny then let them
but i think in default/vanilla there is no place for such an item
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Gifty on April 29, 2014, 09:25:30 am
i published cheat mods
if people want to suck the fun out of their game OR find huge craters with resistance funny then let them
but i think in default/vanilla there is no place for such an item
That's the thing, nobody's trying to put it in the vanilla game; I don't know how this conclusion keeps getting jumped to.

As an aside, someone here once mentioned the prospect of Xcom losing points for incurring excessive collateral damage; I think the mini nuke combined with that kind of scoring system would make for a really interesting dynamic. You can hit the panic button and blow up a city block, but there's going to be consequences.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: moriarty on April 29, 2014, 10:46:12 am
in kind of the same vein: I would like (some of) the xcom craft (and UFOs, too!) to be able to use the craft weapons in the battlescape.

the lightning, for example, has a turret! there's really no reason it shouldn't be able to use a weapon mounted there in the battlescape. which could then be a real reason to use the lightning :) a stingray missile launched in the battlescape would probably be stronger than a blaster bomb, but of course it's arced-direct-fire only. a true artillery weapon.

of course, collateral damage reparations would be needed here, too :)
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: winterheart on April 29, 2014, 11:12:21 am
Why to bother? Just add "Win" button to battlescape, which automatically kills all aliens. And "Win" button in "alien craft detected" screen. Also make radar radius 6000. After 30 minutes of playing that game you simply will delete this game.
It's called "game raping". And totally destroys gameplay and game itself.
it's quite reasonable that developers don't want to make their game piece of shit. Even by third-party mods (i.e. ain't taking responsibility for this raping directly).

Well, I thought that OpenXcom is aimed to get rid from limitations and bugs of original. Is blastradius capped to 11 in original? No? So why it should capped in OXC? Yes? Then this should be removed, it's violation of my modder's rights!

Button "InstaWin" is not much fun as detonating of Tactical Nuclear Device. Imagine new type of terror mission - bomb defusing! New vista over horizons!
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: volutar on April 29, 2014, 11:29:33 am
Well, I thought that OpenXcom is aimed to get rid from limitations and bugs of original. Is blastradius capped to 11 in original? No?
Yes.
And OpenXcom is aimed to get rid of UNNECESSARY limitations. Explosion radius is necessary cap.
Quote
So why it should capped in OXC? Yes? Then this should be removed, it's violation of my modder's rights!
You have only those rights, which developers given you. You don't have a right to use explosion radius more than 11. It's out of modding area. It's "forking" area.

And stop renaming Ethereals into Skymen.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: civilian on April 29, 2014, 11:41:12 am
+11 ftw!  ;D
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: winterheart on April 29, 2014, 11:53:44 am
Explosion radius is necessary cap.

Who say that? Explosion radius is one of technical characteristics of engine. Is max damage of weapon capped?

Quote
And stop renaming Ethereals into Skymen.
Do you want talk about it? Why you think that I do that?
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: volutar on April 29, 2014, 12:07:55 pm
Who say that? Explosion radius is one of technical characteristics of engine. Is max damage of weapon capped?
MCD data is capped. As sight radius is capped. And sight radius is capped for the reason. Because everything in game should  consider AI, and AI is incapable to consider those ridiculous radiuses.

Quote
Do you want talk about it? Why you think that I do that?
YOu've put that INPROPER initial translation from dos version. Even xcom2012 doesn't screw localized version that way.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Falko on April 29, 2014, 12:22:08 pm
[10:39] <falko_> can somebdy explain why blastradius cap is "necessary" i could see it for the old xcom to minimize smoke/fire/ ramuse... but now?
...
[10:48] <@Warboy> the distance is a function of the power
[10:48] <@Warboy> if the power is below a certain threshold it will only spread a certain amount
[10:48] <@Warboy> the radius is a cap for the explosion itself
[10:49] <@Warboy> without it, the blaster launcher would be even bigger
[10:49] <@Warboy> and the alien grenade would be huge
[10:50] <@Warboy> power 20 will never reach 12 tiles, that's just silly
[10:50] <@Warboy> but uncapped, power 200 could reach a ridiculous distance
[10:50] <@Warboy> thus: cap

ah i got an explanation!
not sure how the 11 limit the range but it seems there is a reason for vanilla thats good enough for me

i played around and produced  this picture (exploding corpse with blastRadius: 100, power: 1000, arrow=explosioncenter) without changing any sourcecode/recompilation
that means someone still could create a "bomb defusing" mission 4 towers with one activated bomb for each layer (or replace bomb with bomb-alien that stands in fire/is wounded and cant move  = dead in X turns -> BOOM target: stun before death by fire - too bad i have no idea how to mod maps)
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: winterheart on April 29, 2014, 12:48:08 pm
MCD data is capped. As sight radius is capped. And sight radius is capped for the reason. Because everything in game should  consider AI, and AI is incapable to consider those ridiculous radiuses.

Reason for who? You can't explain, you can only say "This has been in vanilla, it's sacred and forbidden area, don't touch it! Booo!" Original XCom has that limitation because of DOS' limited resources. You still play OpenXcom on DOS? Maybe you should switch back to original XCom?

Quote
YOu've put that INPROPER initial translation from dos version. Even xcom2012 doesn't screw localized version that way.

OMG, sorry for that! FYI, "INPROPER" initial translation has been imported from original translation directly by SupSuper. It's not my fault, that on GetLocalization site you can't upvote your translation.
Title: Re: Maximum blastRadius?
Post by: Warboy1982 on April 29, 2014, 12:56:19 pm
gonna lock this as it seems to have gotten woefully off topic and descended into sectarian violence.

blast radii left to the internal formula are capped at 11, you can manually set it higher if you want, i take no responsibility for mods that unbalance the game.