OpenXcom Forum
Modding => Work In Progress => Topic started by: Solarius Scorch on February 05, 2014, 10:10:32 am
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Many people request a "hybrid game" by combining elements of UFO: Enemy Unknown and TFTD. In my opinion, the only way it'd work would be to make a complete merge of these games, also on the level of mechanics and storyline. Basically:
- When a UFO is shot over water, it isn't destroyed; you can recover it with Aquanauts.
- X-Com has both aircraft and subs. Only subs can go on underwater missions, but they can't fly (it's 1999 after all). Therefore you need separate underwater bases for the subs.
- TFTD aliens and UFOs probably wouldn't fly, they're just navy. Otherwise some aliens (Tentaculats, Hallucinoids etc.) would die if the UFO crashes on land.
- What about the ending - would you go for Cydonia, T'leth, or both? This needs to be decided/planned.
To sum up, I'd absolutely love the idea, but it would be quite demanding. Still, I think it's perfectly doable by our team.
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Non-flying subs would require some pathfinding to navigate (ah-ha) around landmasses. In terms of game, it would be a very radical change, for example America is a huge obstacle between Atlantic and Pacific. Also since the game interface has a limit of 6 bases, you'd have no more than 4 aquatic bases to patrol the entire world...
A big challenge would be for the game engine to handle (and distinguish) both bases facilities. It's an issue that's completely avoided by having different rulesets for the two different games.
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Why having a hybrid game?
The games share some similarity, but only to some extent. They are different. I'd rather play them one at a time than having a hybrid.
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I would rather see them one after the other. Complete the first game then merge into TFTD with parts of UFO carried over. Start with soldiers from UFO or something like that.
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TFTD is happening 40 years after UFO.
Also, the Avenger that raided Cydonia, with your elite soldiers... it didn't come back. The desperate mission didn't account for a ticket back to Earth.
edit: Sorry about that, false memories. Did I get Alien abducted?
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On the contrary, the Avenger did came back, and was used a few more times in the failed attempts to find Elerium on Mars before being mothballed as a museum piece.
As for the soldiers, well, 40 years will take its toll on anyone even with the improvements in medicine, and personally I think that whatever was left of X-COM after the First Alien War neither had the influence or the resources to arrange for soldiers to be put into the cold sleep.
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Non-flying subs would require some pathfinding to navigate (ah-ha) around landmasses. In terms of game, it would be a very radical change, for example America is a huge obstacle between Atlantic and Pacific. Also since the game interface has a limit of 6 bases, you'd have no more than 4 aquatic bases to patrol the entire world...
A big challenge would be for the game engine to handle (and distinguish) both bases facilities. It's an issue that's completely avoided by having different rulesets for the two different games.
Yeah. They are obstacles, but I think they're not only surmountable by the community (and especially our very talented coders), but also would provide more fun for the players. Your first base location is an important question; it would be even more complicated with a naval base. (The Pacific seems to be the obvious choice, but would you really abandon Europe and the Middle East?)
Why having a hybrid game?
The games share some similarity, but only to some extent. They are different. I'd rather play them one at a time than having a hybrid.
I fully understand. However, these "hybrid games" have been a recurring theme for 20 years, most prominently in the X-Com Util, and people played it. So I thought, if it exists, it should be made properly. :) Hence my initial thoughts on how to merge not only the games' resources, but also their logic.
I would rather see them one after the other. Complete the first game then merge into TFTD with parts of UFO carried over. Start with soldiers from UFO or something like that.
Yes, but this actually creates some logical problems. See below:
TFTD is happening 40 years after UFO. Also, the Avenger that raided Cydonia, with your elite soldiers... it didn't come back. The desperate mission didn't account for a ticket back to Earth.
Even if it were true, what about the other ten Avengers you left back in your bases? :) What about heavy plasma guns? Power suits? Blaster bombs? Even if some of these technologies won't work underwater, there are still land missions (terror). I know TFTD handwaved it by saying that there's no more Elerium to power these things, but it wouldn't apply to everything, for example Alien Alloys.
Yes, TFTD takes place 40 years later (I thought it was 60, but I'm not sure). And well, the T'leth arc would have to be moved much faster, to the first alien war, and somehow fitted into the plot. Still, these are technical issues, as many people simply want to play hybrid games and they will anyway, so, as I said, let's give them some way to do it properly, without too much suspension of disbelief.
Basically we would have to add elements from TFTD to the basic game, balance them properly (weapons, aliens) and think of a way to tie these stories together. I'm not a huge fan of hybrid games, but I still think it would be very interesting to say the least.
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My mistake, I thought I had read it on Ufopedia (somewhere in the timeline information), but I can't find anything like this now. I either read a fan theory or completely misunderstood something.
edit: I just found my error, I read it in the ending of TFTD :
the aquanauts set off a chain reaction that destroys the alien colony ship just as it is rising above the surface of the water. All the aquanauts aboard are killed, but in dying they ensure the safety of the people of Earth.
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Still, these are technical issues, as many people simply want to play hybrid games and they will anyway, so, as I said, let's give them some way to do it properly, without too much suspension of disbelief.
In my opinion, the biggest achievement of OpenXcom project is giving people freedom of choice: they can make the game as hard or as twisted as they want ;D. Hybrid game is in my opinion worth investing quite a lot of time and effort to get it done. Think of it as another mod: you don't have to use it if you don't want to.
As for logical stuff, my thoughts are:
- Game starts on 1999. X-Com has access to ground facilities only. Underwater facilities are researchable and then buildable (with two kinds of bases - 8 each? 7 each?).
- After some time (nine months? half a year? based on difficulty?) aliens start to send subs and in general X-Com fights on two fronts.
- Non flying subs would be very fun to see, but it could be quite difficult to implement. Regardless of that, some weapons would't work on land or sea, or would have decreased accuracy, power, etc. Soldiers could't go on underwater mission.
- As for the ending, you would go for both - of course in different crafts.
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Aquatic aliens (and crafts and weapons) can work both on land (terror missions) and underwater.
Similarly, an XCOM-2 team can operate both on land and underwater.
So I think it's a bit weird if you try to add to TFTD an element that can only operate on one of them :
- space aliens would get very vulnerable while over an ocean. An XCOM sub can down the UFO and let the aliens drown, recover the UFO easily ?
- Why even manage an XCOM-1 team (skyranger, soldiers without diving suits, non-aquatic weapons) if an aquatic team can do the same things and more ?
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- space aliens would get very vulnerable while over an ocean. An XCOM sub can down the UFO and let the aliens drown, recover the UFO easily ?
- Why even manage an XCOM-1 team (skyranger, soldiers without diving suits, non-aquatic weapons) if an aquatic team can do the same things and more ?
Fair points. Frankly, I don't know how to solve this problem yet... Give UFO aliens spherical glass helmets? :)
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I've got a few ideas:
- X-Com subs (possibly alien subs too) can be limited to reach very low altitude over land - this way they can't be used to intercept flying UFOs. Skyranger is still necessary.
- aquanauts wouldn't be different kind of soldier. Instead, player can research and buy?manufacture? new kind of armor (lets call it Aquasuit for the moment). This would basically be standard aquanaut suit, but soldier wearing it can go on underwater mission
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different kinds of armor don't sound like a good idea to me... what if some of the soldiers in your craft have waterproof armor and others don't? if you go on an underwater mission, half of your team dies?
I guess it would be better if there is some point in the game at which the underwater aliens show up, and you have to research "subaquatic warfare" - once you research that, you can go on underwater missions. all soldiers are waterproofed after that.
the only question remains whether all soldiers should also be automatically equipped with basic TFTD armor for surface missions... or whether they dress for the occasion en-route.
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Separate the 2 game styles into 2 bases, one TFTD/Deepsea, and the other UD/Underground.
- TFTD tech in Deepsea base will have the greatest advantage in the sea with no surface type weapons or tech available to buy, sell, research, or manufacture
- UD tech in underground base will have the greatest advantage in the surface with no deepsea type weapons or tech available to buy, sell, research, or manufacture.
Besides that, you won't have any other limitations, and you will be able to transfer weapons and tech between bases if you feel the need to do so. You're paying for it.
Any UFO flying into the ocean will be recovered by Aquanauts as soon as they dispatch any defending TFTD alien attempting to recover the UFO. These missions will be harder, as you'll have to enter both enemy crafts (UFO and sub). The focus on Aquanauts deepsea tech will be worth it so you can keep them in the sea mission, while the Xenonauts underground will handle all surface missions, including TFTD surfaced missions.
The reason Aquanauts will have to enter the Space UFO is because, the UFO upon touching water, activates an emergency mechanism that attempts to bandage any hull damage that will bring water into the ship. I was thinking you'll be able to breach those weaker alloy spots, but then water will rush in killing all the aliens anyway... So just go in through the entrance.
To make sure we understand this is a co-operative effort, money will be shared. So double the income and you decide which base gets what and when.
Sorry I haven't had time to read this thread, but I have read past ideas about merging both games when I had time :)
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different kinds of armor don't sound like a good idea to me... what if some of the soldiers in your craft have waterproof armor and others don't? if you go on an underwater mission, half of your team dies?
Not really; you just can't load non-aquatic troops onto a Triton, that's it. Mr. Quiet's ideas are supporting/expanding this idea.
I guess it would be better if there is some point in the game at which the underwater aliens show up, and you have to research "subaquatic warfare" - once you research that, you can go on underwater missions. all soldiers are waterproofed after that.
Not necessarily; you can, but you don't have to assign sealed armour. I just had a mid-December mission with some Personal Armours, as I suddenly ran out of Power Suits.
Still, I fully agree with aquatic aliens appearing later, when you already have some tech discovered. After all, they're mostly tougher. :)
the only question remains whether all soldiers should also be automatically equipped with basic TFTD armor for surface missions... or whether they dress for the occasion en-route.
I think it depends on armour. You can send aquatic troops on land missions, why not, but I imagine these armours to suffer some penalties due to being unsuited to land movement (negative TUs come to mind; this can already be implemented in the game, Dioxine's Piratez! mod uses it).
Separate the 2 game styles into 2 bases, one TFTD/Deepsea, and the other UD/Underground.
- TFTD tech in Deepsea base will have the greatest advantage in the sea with no surface type weapons or tech available to buy, sell, research, or manufacture
- UD tech in underground base will have the greatest advantage in the surface with no deepsea type weapons or tech available to buy, sell, research, or manufacture.
Besides that, you won't have any other limitations, and you will be able to transfer weapons and tech between bases if you feel the need to do so. You're paying for it.
Okay. Still, we need to think which non-TFTD tech would work underwater and how; for example, explosives should work fine, motion scanners would probably require some tuning, and plasma weapons may not work at all as intended, if we decide so.
Any UFO flying into the ocean will be recovered by Aquanauts as soon as they dispatch any defending TFTD alien attempting to recover the UFO. These missions will be harder, as you'll have to enter both enemy crafts (UFO and sub). The focus on Aquanauts deepsea tech will be worth it so you can keep them in the sea mission, while the Xenonauts underground will handle all surface missions, including TFTD surfaced missions.
The reason Aquanauts will have to enter the Space UFO is because, the UFO upon touching water, activates an emergency mechanism that attempts to bandage any hull damage that will bring water into the ship. I was thinking you'll be able to breach those weaker alloy spots, but then water will rush in killing all the aliens anyway... So just go in through the entrance.
This is a bit complicated, since you'll have two UFO's on the same map. Besides, this alien sub would have to come from somewhere, what's keeping you from sinking it en route or just getting to the wreck before them?
I think it would be enough if a UFO which crashes into the sea becomes far too damaged to recover anything of interest; probably just some Alien Alloys and MAYBE some corpses/personal items. Considering it would be later in the game, it wouldn't be terribly attractive anyway (though you'd still do it, I guess). Actually, this process should be automated once you have the tech to do it (sending a Triton to recover an undefended wreck wouldn't be fun).
To make sure we understand this is a co-operative effort, money will be shared. So double the income and you decide which base gets what and when.
Nah, at this stage we really don't need more money. :)
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anyone knows the UFO / TFTD Combo Mod beta??
https://www.strategycore.co.uk/forums/topic/9751-ufo-tftd-combo-mod-beta/ (https://www.strategycore.co.uk/forums/topic/9751-ufo-tftd-combo-mod-beta/)
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As for the soldiers, well, 40 years will take its toll on anyone even with the improvements in medicine, and personally I think that whatever was left of X-COM after the First Alien War neither had the influence or the resources to arrange for soldiers to be put into the cold sleep.
Traveling at fast speeds in space is supposed to make people age less than those on earth?
I just want to be able to use rocket launchers and HE Auto cannons on land and terror missions, when the underwater weapons are useless. And TFTD should at least start with laser weapons for land use.
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Traveling at fast speeds in space is supposed to make people age less than those on earth?
Nope, 40 years is 40 years even you move close to speed of light BUT time passed on earth and in space is independent, you could "skip" some earth years.
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Nope, 40 years is 40 years even you move close to speed of light BUT time passed on earth and in space is independent, you could "skip" some earth years.
That's what I meant. If they skip those years, it might deal with some of the age difference people are worried about.
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assuming the avenger is travelling at 99.999% of the speed of light, it would have to be in motion for roughly 65 and a half days for 40 years to have passed on earth relative to them. considering the distance between mars and earth would be covered in somewhere between 3 and 22 minutes (depending on relative position) they'd have to take a major wrong turn to experience enough of a time dilation to justify the hero squad from the first contact war being present in the tftd campaign.
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Alien technology and a 65 day high speed chase. ; )
eg. When the X-com squad realized that the TFTD aliens spotted them on mars and wanted to follow them to the human homeworld, the squad tried to confuse them and lead them away from earth and then ditch them. They thought they lost them, but apparently didn't.
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Didn't the narrow tachyon beam from Cydonia's distress signal, awoke the aliens on the T'Leth? XD
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anyone knows the UFO / TFTD Combo Mod beta??
https://www.strategycore.co.uk/forums/topic/9751-ufo-tftd-combo-mod-beta/ (https://www.strategycore.co.uk/forums/topic/9751-ufo-tftd-combo-mod-beta/)
Wow, this looks interesting. Perhaps some day we can go from where they left it.
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If the merge with TFDT is too much difficult,
in my opinion, at list the import of surface missions of TFTD is a must have.... :P
I understand that it is not simple ...
but OpenXcom 0.9 run better than original UFO D. in MS.DOS,
therefore I hope this big improvemnt
PS:
I apologize for the next if it is a silly thing :-X
In some post I read that there are problems with different palette but I do not understand what it means
The palette is a table of colors I think
If the two game engines have a different unique palette,
I ipotize that
before importing the TFTD maps,
it is necessary to convert them with a tool that use one external
lookup color table to remap al colors.
excuse me again for mine ignorance :o
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Most colors from TFTD are not present in the UFO palette. When people convert a single TFTD sprite or unit by picking the closest color available, it can look "close enough". But if you try convert an entire TFTD scenery and units, you will notice "something wrong" compared to an actual TFTD screenshot.
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Thank you very much for the explanation. :D
In an other post I saw that TFTD has four palette table ... instead the once of UFO.
Is it very difficult allow a different palette for a specific map ? 8)
The engine when load a map "TerrorOnBoat.MAP" , check the optional presence of TerrorOnBoat_Palettes.DAT
if exists it use that instead of standard for the tactical part of game.
I suppose that the inventory screen must use standard palette for the same reasons
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that's all on the roadmap for TFTD support, take it as said that anything that is necessary for TFTD is scheduled.
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If the merge with TFDT is too much difficult,
in my opinion, at list the import of surface missions of TFTD is a must have.... :P
There is a mod (by Civilian, who used files made by Hobbes) which has the port terrain as a possible terror terrain in OpenXCom. However, there were some issues with this, I'm not sure if it's fully playable.
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I found this ...
/**
* Replaces a certain amount of colors in the surface's palette.
* @param colors Pointer to the set of colors.
* @param firstcolor Offset of the first color to replace.
* @param ncolors Amount of colors to replace.
*/
void Map::setPalette(SDL_Color *colors, int firstcolor, int ncolors)
{
...
... an other idea could to enlarge the palette to 65000 colors
I found this on wiki of sdllib
SDL_Palette* SDL_AllocPalette(int ncolors)
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I am studing ..
I read here
https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=PALETTES.DAT (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=PALETTES.DAT)
about different tactical pallette between UFO and TFTD
Into ruleset it is desiderable associate to terrain a custom palette file
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SDL cant have more than 256 colors in index/palette mode.
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SDL cant have more than 256 colors in index/palette mode.
yes, but it means that we needs to convert maps/terrain of TFTD for shift color index
it coul be difficult if we do not know maps file format perfectly
meanwhile if we realize by code the association between terrain and custom palette we can
import external maps witout convert it.
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?! davide this makes no sense to me...
I am not completely sure that you understand that at a given time, the entire SCREEN has to display everything with a total of 256 colors. For example a UFO farm lanscape + aquanaut sprites + laser weapons + a triton + a tasoth. This greatly exceeds 256. You couldn't make a GIF mockup of it (GIF is also a 256-color format).
Trust the coders, they know how to work with indexed colors, otherwise you wouldn't have a working UFO game. The game already changes palette at runtime, ALL THE TIME.
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I apologize but, yes i am a rooky of game programming.
but i have some skill on windows c++ programming
I do not understand if all screen must be full colored up to max different 256 colors
because the drawing device context in set to this deepth of color
or
the multiple objects (sdl surface) on screen have to drawing each one with their palette of 256 color, possibly different.
Thank you for your patience
PS:
I wish I know if an new build of OX optionally could use one custom palette for drawing the surface of lanscape(ufo, terrainetc) , and the standard for items, units and sprite.
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right now OXC stick only to 8bit but is possible to use 32bit (rgb colors) as main screen and every surface have separate palette, you can look at:
https://github.com/AndO3131/OpenXcom/tree/TFTD_Support
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You can also check this thread (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=1312.0)
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Thanks, it is what I wish ;D
I wiil take some time to read these posts
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The rapidly increasing amount of hybrid game enthusiasts here on the forum makes me think that this project may actually be doable. :D
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Two wishes come true :-*:
-Recovering all custom maps of UFO2000 ... and Hobbes join OX
-now hybrid game is evaluated as a concrete evolution option
(technical problem apart)
Before it, in my opinion,
we need a more flexibility to mod compatibility
I apologize but I just write about it.
Just yesterday there was a collision between "more aliens" on Hobbes's new terror sites and Solaryus's mod
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The rapidly increasing amount of hybrid game enthusiasts here on the forum makes me think that this project may actually be doable. :D
Yes, this is something i really like it too. But not at first time you can make the underwater bases, nor underwater enemies. Maybe there is a quest when they "awaken" from their slumber, and its needed prior to going to Cydonia. I surely will enjoy that idea!!
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Just yesterday there was a collision between "more aliens" on Hobbes's new terror sites and Solaryus's mod
Everyone would want this, but if two people modify the same thing, their mods simply cannot coexist - either one is pushed to latency or the game malfunctions. There's no magical means to avoid this, in any game, regardless of technology.
I personally believe in distributing compilations as a good method of combining mods, but this has its own challenges (getting people to agree, adding updates, etc.)
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What about the ending - would you go for Cydonia, T'leth, or both? This needs to be decided/planned.
The Aliens activate T'leth after one year game time. If XCOM defeat Cydonia before that, T'leth auto activate with weaker aliens or XCOM get more time to prepare.
Look this: https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=The_Mysteries_of_X-COM.
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In my opinion the coordinate of Cydonia could be found only at T'leth
In a Hybrid scenario we have to change something from originals to obtain a reasonable storyboard
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There could be separate bases and separate soldier type for Aquanauts with separate base tabs.
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Ow man, excelent news about working on Terror from the Deep... Also i will love more if could be possible to expanded the scenario to something like: Dark Side of the Moon (where a moon base is build) and from there.... To the stars!!! :D
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Ow man, excelent news about working on Terror from the Deep... Also i will love more if could be possible to expanded the scenario to something like: Dark Side of the Moon (where a moon base is build) and from there.... To the stars!!! :D
(https://www.lgdb.org/sites/default/files/node_images/2310/3917.jpg)
::)
really there are only a .PNG with tileset, :-\
UFO2000 is able to render maps directly by .LUA files (a scripting language)
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Beautiful!!!!
Yes yes yes :D
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- When a UFO is shot over water, it isn't destroyed; you can recover it with Aquanauts.
- X-Com has both aircraft and subs. Only subs can go on underwater missions, but they can't fly (it's 1999 after all). Therefore you need separate underwater bases for the subs.
- TFTD aliens and UFOs probably wouldn't fly, they're just navy. Otherwise some aliens (Tentaculats, Hallucinoids etc.) would die if the UFO crashes on land.
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I don't believe certain items should be recoverable from water submerged UFOs. The lore says Elurium 115 loses its power in water. So at the very least, E115 shouldn't be saveable. Possibly the weapons as well.
The bodies, alien alloy, nav computers and such should all be recoverable.
As for a flying sub, I think there should be flying subs and they should stink to high heaven. From an engineering standpionts, its very difficult to build something to work in 2 different enviroments. So if you do manage it, it will likely be weaker in 1 of 2 or more enviroments. From game lore, plasma and lasers shouldn't work under water.
From basic phyics, sound needs atmosphere to work. You have plenty at ground less. Less if your as high as Denver and even less in the hieghts UFOs and Xcom fighter tangle with each other. So sonic weapons wouldn't work as aircraft weapons.
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This is a bit complicated, since you'll have two UFO's on the same map. Besides, this alien sub would have to come from somewhere, what's keeping you from sinking it en route or just getting to the wreck before them?
I think it would be enough if a UFO which crashes into the sea becomes far too damaged to recover anything of interest; probably just some Alien Alloys and MAYBE some corpses/personal items. Considering it would be later in the game, it wouldn't be terribly attractive anyway (though you'd still do it, I guess). Actually, this process should be automated once you have the tech to do it (sending a Triton to recover an undefended wreck wouldn't be fun).
I like the idea of creating an automated recovery drone for crashed ufos.
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IMO, the interesting part of a hybrid game is mostly playing the TFTD campaign :
- with adding *some* of the UFO elements, ex. the TFTD flying subs can do city terrors or missions overland (even their crashes can be recovered on land, in the right terrain type) All TFTD lifeforms can operate on land anyway, except hallucinoids IIRC.
- avoiding redundanct techs and items (no Psi, MC reader, or flares)
- with keeping a similar game flow, ie very few bases at the beginning
- limiting the amount of UFO tech which gets carried over automatically :
- no more Elerium-based tech because all is expended (this includes power armors)
- lasers inherently limited because can't be used underwater - and the TFTD lifeforms may be resistant to it, so that lasers don't dominate early non-aquatic battles)
- Having the player start with personal armors and lasers may be a wanted game element, because it means the player has an advantage when he can put the battle on land. This advantage fades over time as the player invents technology that additionally works underwater.
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Having some sort of continuity between the game is why people want lasers and armors at the beginning, more than the power boost. Fighting aliens on land with harpoon guns is so ridiculous.. There must be better weapons than that available to XCom for surface engagements.
Even rifles/AutoCannons/Rocket Launchers would be welcome and there is no canonical reason that I know of why lasers couldn't work. Alien alloys can be made on Earth if one decides they are needed for lasers like in many mods here and they don't take Elerium. Of course, XCom should not have any Elerium based technology as Elerium has long been reclaimed for other uses.
Although everyone wants it, I am not sure if personal armor fits that well. I guess XCom could dust off the old suits, but who knows how they would stand up to sonic weapons? If it is imported, it should have a significant negative resistance to them and of course not have breathing equipment (so only useable on land), so aqua plastic armor still makes sense.
I think a game designed upon early advantage on land for XCom (maybe armor, lasers and proper conventional weapons for sure) but a similar disadvantage underwater would make a lot of sense. We could use visibility: It's hard to see far for humans underwater, whereas aliens could use any kind of "vision", echolocation or other. Throwing distances could change too, until "swimming grenades" are invented. If vision distance depending on armor is implemented in OpenTftD, the ion armors could include something that allows you to see further, since they require study of aliens already any ways.
All of this since we are a land based specie, so we should do better over land than in water (and we're very good/interested at coming up with different ways to wage war on land, even without aliens), whereas we have a hard time under water and there's not that much effort going there.
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Having some sort of continuity between the game is why people want lasers and armors at the beginning, more than the power boost. Fighting aliens on land with harpoon guns is so ridiculous.. There must be better weapons than that available to XCom for surface engagements.
In original TFTD game, it's justified by the combat being 95% aquatic.
It would feel weird if the game let you embark non-waterproof weapons with you 300 meters under the sea on every missions, and always have them in perfect condition when you need to fire a shot on land.
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There's no waterproof weapon storage on the triton? I know they flood the interior for deployment and have "underwater computers" ( ::)), but still, I would expect some parts of it to remain dry (especially in the front where all the navigation stuff is).
It's possible to make excuses for it (in fact, it is possible to excuse pretty much anything with enough thought, what's hard is keeping things simple and coherent), but it would make more sense if it weren't so.
Or just make tritons unable to go on land, instead requiring the XCom:EU crafts for land missions. Amphibious sub/planes are iffy even as alien tech, they don't make much sense as base human tech (especially when there aren't any weapons to use while outside the water...).
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I'm not even really buying the "Elerium hates water" excuse, as garden hose would become the best x-Com equipment against most aliens (not to mention rain). Maybe a combination of high pressure and chemical composition of ocean water would be enough of a handwave, but it still doesn't explain why Power Suits suddenly stop working.
As for the "all Elerium was used up", well, that was the story in the original TFTD... But in the hybrid project we don't have the several decades gap, so what are we even talking about? Unless I'm missing something...
Therefore, I'm inclined to leaving X-Com 1 armours and other equipment as they are. TFTD armours are better anyway, so they still have their place.
BTW: in real life, how do lasers behave underwater? How much stronger is the dissipation, which could limit their damage and range?
As for plasma weapons, they're so completely fictional that they can work underwater or not, whatever we wish.
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I think the "all Elerium was used up" idea is for a linear hybrid game where some things carry over from EU to TftD but they don't overlap. Not for a "meshed-hybrid".
I just rechecked and Elerium becomes inert with prolonged exposure to sea water (I think that's the phrasing in the Interceptor manual? That's what I've seen at least), but it doesn't necessarily vanish immediately (or explode). So you're right in that there's not really any reason to have much decay if you recover a UFO underwater a few hours after the crash. It's more of an additional reason for there being no more Elerium in a linear hybrid.
In real life, I would expect lasers to dissipate faster underwater than in air, but that's only because more can be suspended in water. Clean water should only attenuate lasers a big more than clean air (and we fire lasers through smoke routinely, which really wouldn't work all that well).
In fact, Particle/Gauss/Plasma technology would probably fare the worst underwater, since there is a lot more friction/viscosity to stop projectiles (and heat capacity to absorb the plasma's energy).
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Yeah, at best.
At worst? Well, I'm thinking of the kind of thing you get in nuclear plant meltdowns when the superhot radioactive slag makes contact with the water storage. The reaction tends to be...violent.
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I'm not even really buying the "Elerium hates water" excuse, as garden hose would become the best x-Com equipment against most aliens (not to mention rain). Maybe a combination of high pressure and chemical composition of ocean water would be enough of a handwave, but it still doesn't explain why Power Suits suddenly stop working.
It was sea water, which is highly corrosive to any material over prolonged periods of time (forcing ships to perform constant maintenance to reduce its effects) due to the salts it contains. There was an official short story called 'Moray on the Wreck' set between UFO and TFTD that described a salvage operation of a crashed underwater UFO to recover Elerium. IIRC, the main concern was if the engine housing had been already corrupted by the salt water or not, which would have allowed the water to enter the engine and render the Elerium inert.
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It was sea water, which is highly corrosive to any material over prolonged periods of time (forcing ships to perform constant maintenance to reduce its effects) due to the salts it contains. There was an official short story called 'Moray on the Wreck' set between UFO and TFTD that described a salvage operation of a crashed underwater UFO to recover Elerium. IIRC, the main concern was if the engine housing had been already corrupted by the salt water or not, which would have allowed the water to enter the engine and render the Elerium inert.
Yeah, I remember reading it here (https://scifiemporium.xcomufo.com/Misc/Moray1.htm) years ago. But are you sure it's an official story? I've always thought it was decent fan fiction.
Anyway, yeah, sea water, like I said. Still doesn't explain most of tech loss - power armours (it's not like its Elerium is exposed to water), Psi-Amps, Medikits....
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Yeah, I remember reading it here (https://scifiemporium.xcomufo.com/Misc/Moray1.htm) years ago. But are you sure it's an official story? I've always thought it was decent fan fiction.
Anyway, yeah, sea water, like I said. Still doesn't explain most of tech loss - power armours (it's not like its Elerium is exposed to water), Psi-Amps, Medikits....
Those 3 stories were officially released by Microprose to bridge the years between UFO and TFTD. Check here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-COM#Literature).
Power Suits and Psi-Amps require Elerium to be built. Medikits do not, but it would required to adapt them for underwater usage.
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why not something like this?
Facts:
- I cannot imagine anything that goes under water 4800 knots without making huge tsunami wave.
- Also movement underwater is very similar to movement in low gravity enviroment like on moon / mars.
Interception:
- all interception is done in the air due to facts above
- if alien sub is UFO then after crash it can be taken by transport ship overland
- if alien sub is USO then after crash it can be taken by transport ship underwater but only shallow one (see Craft section)
- speed under water is very limited and basically its just craft moving to location and then wait to dive until specific location is reached
- UFO or USO type does not matter, actually alien race matters is this UFO or USO type (check Alien race section)
Alien races:
- there are space and water races
- space race does not live underwater (no crash missions)
- water race does not live over land (or some of them does not)
- water race shows up after 3-6 months
- based on race type, crash mission are available on land or / and water
Crafts:
- there is one transporter that is cappable of land and water mission
- skyranger can only take shallow water mission
- lighting can take shallow and medium water mission
- avenger can take any type of water mission (including final Tleth underwater) -> that is logical from story point of view
Types of missions:
- land mission done same as in x-com
- shallow water which is same as day mission on land (its day or night, 10% of all water)
- medium water which is same as night mission on land (its always dark, 20% of all water)
- deep water which cannot be accessed by x-com, all USO cannot be access there (70% of all water)
- so its all about setuping proper regions on the globe
Countries:
- existing countries should have more areas over seas
- few countries might be added to control more shallow seas areas like Indonesia / Arabia / Mexico
Weapons:
- standard, those that works only on land, cheap
- advanced, those that works on land on over water, more expensive
- balistics, land only
- laser, land only
- gauss which is laser that works underwater and land
- plasma, land only
- sonic which is plasma that works underwater and land
- distruptor / fusion works underwater and land
Story:
- starts as ufo 1, but ends as ufo 2 (cydonia underwater)
- there is one research tree but some technology from ufo 2 is moved to ufo 1 to
- most of battles are done over land, but some of them including the final one is done underwater
- as time passes the more and more battles are thought underwater, but still this is about 25% max
Alien bases:
- land aliens have bases over land
- water aliens have based under water but only in regions with shallow / medium waters, those can be accessed by x-com
- deep water cannot be accessed neither by aliens or humans but this is place of final mission
Terror missions:
- as only crashlands are done underwater then no terror missions are done underwater
- urban is used for inland cities
- port is used on coastal cities
- ship ?? i have no idea how to implement a ship
Tom
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Both tftd craft and usos could cross land. Interceptors required water to shoot them down, but the personnel craft could land on land (terror missions, etc). But all craft could at least fly over land.
I think it would be easier to mod tftd for this purpose. Find out what is preventing air interceptions and disable it, so you can shoot UFOs and USOs down over land. We wouldn't need both interceptors and barracudas, the 'cudas could perform both roles.
Would need some way to distinguish UFOs and USOs, so land crew don't show up underwater and water types on land (mostly things like tentaculats and jellies) because land types aren't adapted to underwater, although most of the underwater types can survive on land.
As far as equipment goes, tftd has everything covered already. Some weapons are flaaged to only work underwater; remove the flag, and the weapon sets are basically identical. However, you could basically double the research tree by going something like base weapons - laser - gauss - plasma - sonic. Same with armor sets to some extent - waterproofing power armor shouldn't be an issue, lore wise, but really tftd has it covered. It's mostly just a gfx preference. But the "flying" tftd suits would need to function on land, as currently lore wise they use some sort of water jet system to get around. Make it grav based and problem solved.
Combining research tech shouldn't be hard. While each game has equivalents (elerium - zerbite) you could still research both and both could still lead to separate but similar research.
I think the hardest part granted I'm not a coder so I have no idea, is going to be the UFOs. If a UFO crashes on land, begin mission. If it crashes in water, it's lost. If a USO crashes on either, begin mission but disallow certain alien types on land missions. Or, substitute the land versions. Chryssalids for tentaculats, maybe cyberdiscs for jellies?
Integrating both land and water types in alien bases on land could be a thing too. Water bases would need water types only.
Xcom bases could be on land or water, as base missions underwater are always 'dry' anyway. Craft are amphibious at this point, so they could be stationed at either.
Picking an ending, or integrating both could be an issue for sure. I think t'leth should be taken out first, then Cydonia. Clear them out locally then go for the home world. Or just stick with Cydonia. Taking out t'leth and still getting water aliens would be strange, but cutting them out after the mission could potentially cut off certain researches.
There is no reason to over think things. These games use a lot of hand waving already to make things "work". Trying to be ultra-realistic will make the game a pain in the ass to code and probably not a lot of fun to play.
Laser weapons could work underwater, as it is just a beam of light. Since we currently do not use laser weapons IRL, we have no grounds to say " they flat wont work because reasons". It is advanced technology in a game, I could probably come up with half a dozen reasons why it could make sense.
Plasma is energy. I don't see why a ball of energy couldn't be fired underwater. Especially since gauss tech works in tftd. It's explained as being energy as well.
Sonic would work on land. Sound waves travel better in the water, sure, but again, they already function on land in tftd.
For the sake of ease of use, personal armor from UFO would be dropped in favor of the armor from tftd, as it is already amphibious. The same could be said about power and flying armor; while tftd armors obviously look different, they perform the same function. It is just down to personal preference on gfx. I happen to much prefer the yellow armors of tftd over the robots of UFO.
Merging the items isn't all that much of an issue, since again, most tftd items and weapons function on land. The auto cannon, rocket launcher and blaster shot launcher in tftd do not, but that should be a simple fix.
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This discussion could go on forever without any progress being made. Every person has their own views on what needs to be done to merge the two games. People are sweating over small stuff. T'Leth or Cydonia? Personally, I absolutely could not care less. I play X-Com for the journey, not the destination. I have no interest in stopping the aliens once and for all. I just enjoy policing the Earth and keeping their activities here in check. What happens when you shoot a UFO down over water? What difference does it make? You're assuming that the more land-based aliens breathe our atmosphere, or that they even breathe at all. I reviewed the UFOpaedia entries on the non-robotic EU aliens, and there's nothing saying conclusively that they do (And even if they did, aren't we changing things simply by merging them?) The Sectoids' nose and mouth is almost vestigial at this point, the floaters' respiratory system has been completely replaced by life-support cybernetics, and none of the Ethereals' organs seem to function at all in the first place. Why are we assuming these creatures can't survive underwater? I mean, for all we know, they breathe water vapor, and can just as easily metabolize it in its liquid form. The Sectoids are even mentioned as having aquatic ancestry, after all.
I'm not trying to start another argument on these things, I'm simply saying they're not relevant steps to make a hybrid, and everyone will have a different take on how they should be implemented anyways. Keep it simple. You want to make a hybrid game? You need to do two things. Just two.
1. Allow for the possibility of underwater bases and missions.
2. Solve the color palette issues.
I know that neither of those problems are any small task, but you accomplish that, and I guarantee you that within a month, you'll have a dozen different versions of a hybrid game, thanks to the modding community. Pick your favorite and call it the "official" one, or just cherry-pick and hybridize them to make your own "best" version.
I won't comment too much on solving point #2 above, since I don't know too much about the innerworkings of XC or OXC, except to say that I won't mind if it involves changing the colors of TFTD. Personally, I've always felt its palette was far too... cartoony, for lack of a better word.
As for the first point, that's relatively easy. Allow for a custom World.DAT to be used, one that allows twice as many textures, with a depth assignment to each of them. Anything that's done over a non-surface depth texture (and doesn't have an altitude assigned to it) is marine-based. Then you simply have to create one (or two) variables for everything to declare if it's normal, marine, or amphibious. That's the time-consuming part, because you have to give that variable to EVERYTHING. Weapons, armor, craft, craft weapons, base facilities, aliens, even soldiers and UFO's (For those who seem to thing there should be a distinction between soldiers and aquanauts, and UFO's and USO's, personally it's all the same to me). Even alien trajectories need to accommodate both depth and altitude, to distinguish between a UFO hovering over the surface of the water or a submarine lurking below it.
You do that, and the community will find its own way to merge things, items, technologies, plot.
Done. And done.
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1- TftD has land terrors, water "events" and water missions. EU has land terrors and land missions. Since the same program (OpenXCom) will be able to handle all of these, I see no reason why the program wouldn't be able to handle any combination of these as well (underwater terror being the odd one, but there's really little to terrorize down there any ways).
2- Just recolor either the EU stuff to use the TftD palette, or, more likely, the TftD stuff to use the EU one. Right now, with minimal work, one could produce an OpenXCom-TftD bastard version that has all the races, equipment, weapons and very similar maps to TftD.
- Most aliens are already in the Alien Recolor mod
- The equipment is easily recolored (the XAE Power Armor uses TftD Ion Armor sprites, for example)
- Gauss weapons graphics have been used already, I suspect the Altoid mod uses sonic weapons.
- The tech tree/UFOPaedia entries are easy to reproduce too.
- You can recolor most of the maps, except you can't force OpenXCom to link stuff unless it is roads, nor put water at the edge of maps like in TftD terrors. No ships either. But the TftD port map is already used in OpenXCom, without the water edge.
The only thing you'd be missing are some tricky things in maps (position specific things) and water mechanics like bases in water, intercept only in water, battles underwater with depth having an impact on light, bubbles (although those have been done), etc.
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If all goes well, there will be no need to recolour anything. Tests have already proven that https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=1312.msg12665#msg12665 (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=1312.msg12665#msg12665). It just requires time.
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So it's rendering graphics with different palettes at the same time? With a flag in the item/armor? That's pretty cool!
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I wonder how it can handle the night transitions :o At the moment it's simple 256-byte color map
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I wonder how it can handle the night transitions
@Yankes made special blit function. It's not exactly as in original UFO, but it does the job. Not tested on underwater maps, tho.
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To make sure we understand this is a co-operative effort, money will be shared. So doable the income and you decide which base gets what and when.
Oh yes that sounds like a great idea, maybe even with a multiplayer co-op mode where only one player can use aquanauts and underwater stuff while only the other player can command above ground troops and gear.
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A bit of work is done. I've used Combat Armor and Gazer aliens (https://www.openxcom.com/mod/gazer-alien) mods for testing purposes. First screenshot is for reference and comes from nightly build. Aliens color and combat armor color on second screenshot are similar to normal versions. Second screenshot comes from version build from this source code (https://github.com/AndO3131/OpenXcom/tree/32bit_Surface_Support).
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Obviously there's some bugs to work out, but that's pretty cool! Keep up the good work!
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you can easily make a hybrid game by using most xcom1 data to make an xcom2 mod
you will build underwater bases only but the rest of the game can play out like xcom 1 including land aliens, land battles, land only hwp and so forth. you can even have a whole new faction of aliens if you wish as land aliens. you can even code all xcom1 artifacts and special materials to be recovered from crash sites with a bit of magic. i've done it in my deep aliens mod where i added xcom2 data as a mod for xcom1 . i gave up cause tftd was around the corner.
problem with that is i personally like xcom 2 better. is much more tactical as some things work only in water, you have aliens that behave differently on land vs in water or even enemies that don't go in water, and you got land missions and sea missions you got various ocean depths and night and day cycle on land , you got boat attacks, artifact sites and so much more. i don't really want xcom1 into my xcom2. i want new content for xcom2 cool new mods.
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Gazer look like a fitting terror unit for some of the tftd aliens,if that case thought it would need some of its art to change.
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Now that support for TFTD is coming along, is it time to restart this discussion? I vote for a vanilla approach first, with UFO alien unable to survive in water and destroy both T'leth and cydonia.
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Let's wait for stable OpenXcom 2.0. Devs still add/modify some parts of game mechanics.
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Looks like there's a camp that wants, as coined here, a "linear hybrid" (which is easier to achieve), and another camp that wants a concurrent/full hybrid; from the latter, some want to retain the logic as established in the original lore or that is realistic, while others would rather ignore it.
I definitely would rather see a full hybrid. And at first I thought that lore and logic should be preserved, but I see endersblade's point. The original lore is just a bunch of handwaves, and it just gets in the way of actually having fun. Since it should be first and foremost fun, allowing everything sounds like a good starting point. Adding restrictions can be done at any point later, after all.
So you'd have all kinds of weapons that work in all environments, all craft could land everywhere, all aliens survive all crashes anywhere. That allows for a lot of variability, which is ultimately what one would like to see.
For the balance: when taken directly, the TFTD weapons are in fact worse than EU weapons. But the effectiveness of EU weapons underwater could be decreased (or the defence against them for aquatic aliens would be higher, and vice versa).
Having a limit for the number of bases is not an issue. You'd have a lot of facilities that work the same way: labs, workshops, general stores, crew quarters, alien containment are all the same, so it doesn't take any more space than usual. You might need to have different radars for UFOs/USOs, but that's about it.
I'd have all soldiers be marines, with them automatically equipping diving suits when going to an underwater mission (the stats for coveralls and diving suits are the same anyway). Power Suits and Flying Suits seem waterproof already; Personal Armour is a bit of a stretch, though.
And have both T'Leth and Cydonia. I'd say T'Leth as a prerequisite to Cydonia; and when T'Leth is destroyed, continue as usual: it's not like all aquatic aliens die instantly, there are still leftovers. Maybe just limit alien base production.
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Hope for a Hybrid game. That indeed could be so fun! Any advance or mod was able to simulate it?
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Hope for a Hybrid game. That indeed could be so fun! Any advance or mod was able to simulate it?
My X-Com Files pretty much has it, on a limited scale. It contains a story arc where 1999 X-Com has to deal with an early emergence of T'leth agents. It features some underwater missions, both in wilderness and industrial complexes.
But it doesn't include real USOs, I mean ones that travel around the globe and do missions in regions. It is site missions only.
Also, the mod is playable, but very WIP. :)
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My X-Com Files pretty much has it, on a limited scale. It contains a story arc where 1999 X-Com has to deal with an early emergence of T'leth agents. It features some underwater missions, both in wilderness and industrial complexes.
But it doesn't include real USOs, I mean ones that travel around the globe and do missions in regions. It is site missions only.
Also, the mod is playable, but very WIP. :)
Ey that sounds fun. I will try it! Whoa, the readme looks great! :)
I think its hard to mix both games, but hope someone with wizard skills make that possible, just bases underwater, and if an ufo crashed on water, you can try to recover using xcom underwater bases. And underwater aliens will try to recover the remainings of the down ufo... and "that's it" :P
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I think it is time to revive this topic now :) Now that TFTD support is really good
What would be needed to get a Hybrid game going? The basis would just be able to fight UFO and TFTD aliens together.
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I think it is time to revive this topic now :) Now that TFTD support is really good
What would be needed to get a Hybrid game going? The basis would just be able to fight UFO and TFTD aliens together.
Well, I kinda did what I could in X-Com Files. :P
It's not a true hybrid game, but at least there are underwater missions, underwater ships and TFTD enemies.
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easiest way to make a hybrid is simply bring all the ufo1 aliens/weapons/armors/ships into ufo2.